Two-finger braking/blipping technique Q

[adouglas]

Lately I've been practicing my downshifting/braking technique every time I ride. This of course involves modulating the front brake while blipping the trottle and downshifting at the same time.

Every single article/book I've seen shows the braking being done with the forefinger and middle finger, while the thumb, ring finger and pinky operate the throttle.

This feels very awkward to me and I find it hard to modulate the brake properly.

I find that if I operate the throttle with my thumb and forefinger, and use the middle, ring and pinky to brake, I'm much smoother and more comfortable. I've got better control of both the throttle and the brake, and have three fingers on the brake as well.

This makes perfect logical sense to me. Gripping a cylindrical object with just your thumb, ring and pinky just isn't very secure.

If you're at your desk, pick up a stapler and staple some sheets together. The stapler represents your throttle. Do it with just your thumb, ring and pinky... awkward, right?

Now do it with just your thumb and forefinger. Better, yes?

Or, if you're not at a desk, grab your favorite beverage with the two different grips and you decide which one feels more natural and in control.

I can't for the life of me think of a good reason not to do it the way I'm doing it instead of the way the instructions say to do it. Is there one?

What's your view?

[HorizonXP]

I agreed with you when I first started trying this.

Now I've just gotten so used to doing it the way everyone else does, with the ring and pinky. But I'm still not perfect at it, so it's entirely possible that your method is better. I just got used to the awkward feeling, and now it feels perfectly natural.

[welcome2thedawn]

i never read which fingers to use, only the benefit of doing this to make downshifting smoother...when i started practicing this, i naturally did it as your book states...i never thought about it, but it feels normal to me...but we are all different, so of course who cares what the book says, if you found a way that is more comfortable for you, right

[Alex]

Whatever is most comfortable for you and gives you the most secure control over the throttle and brake. There is no "wrong" way if it works for you.

[spooph]

Indeed, the point is to be able to brake smoothly and with constant pressure while blipping the throttle, not which fingers you use. Try various combinations of your preferrence, and pick whichever one works best for you.

[adouglas]

Yeah, I've reached the same conclusion.

However, since it has been revealed to me that I do not in fact know everything (one of the benefits of age and wisdom), I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

You can learn a lot by asking questions that you think you already know the answers to.

[rockNroll]

I would smash my index finger if it were behind the brake lever. I would say get used to doing it with the index/middle fingers brake and ring/pinky blip. Your way might get you into trouble.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by adouglas

However, since it has been revealed to me that I do not in fact know everything (one of the benefits of age and wisdom), I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

By that, I take it you're married?

[Talonne]

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

[spooph]

If I don't have one up by the end of the week Talonne, please bother me about it again...

[Viper-Byte]

I have found that this come naturally to me with my Daytona, except I only brake with my middle finger and blip with the rest of my hand, the ninja I had to think about it and could never get it right... It maybe the amount the throttle needed to be blipped, I don't know.

[Talonne]

Originally Posted by spooph

If I don't have one up by the end of the week Talonne, please bother me about it again...

Thanks

[Jerry]

It takes more effort, I can't really brake fully with the "little guys"

[LazinCajun]

Originally Posted by kkim

By that, I take it you're married?

[austexjg]

The amount of throttle needed to blip the 250 is more than bigger bikes - the position of the stock lever doesn't help.

At least those are my excuses for not being able to rev match smoothly.
Still practicing though.

[Viper-Byte]

Originally Posted by drsketch

Sounds like a lot of work. Why not just break in gear until engine speed matches the next lowest gear then down shift and continue to break?

It is not possible as a gear down will rev higher than the gear you are currently in (as that is how gearboxes work)

[welcome2thedawn]

Originally Posted by Talonne

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

do you have stock levers? i have the pazzo shortie levers...i can't believe what a difference they make...my hands used to start getting sore pretty quickly...now they don't...being able to move them closer will make this a lot easier too

[adouglas]

My stock lever comes nowhere near my forefinger even when squeezed hard.

Regarding using the strong fingers... I can pull mighty hard with the three fingers I use to brake. Plenty hard enough.

What I can't do is precisely control the throttle with my ring/pinky/thumb, or at least not as well as I can with the far more dextrous forefinger/thumb combination.

[AgentCircus]

I feel like I have way better control and feel for the brakes when I use my index and middle fingers. My gloves also have tacky strips on those fingers as well, so it makes it very easy to grab.

As far as blipping the throttle, I'm not advanced enough to do it while braking - but I can definitely see that it would take some getting used to. With that said, once you have the movement down, you wouldn't really need a "feel" for the throttle. I'd argue that the index and middle fingers are more precise fingers - we have way more control over them. I'd reserve those for the squeezing the brake lever, which in my opinion is more important than blipping the throttle.

Is there a way to move the brake lever closer to the throttle? That might make it easier.

[LazinCajun]

Not to get too far off topic, but Michael -- that was what dawn was referring to when she said pazzo levers. With pazzos, the distance between the grip and lever is adjustable. I think there are some other alternatives on the market, although I'm not familiar with them.

[AgentCircus]

I saw those, they're pretty sweet. I have an '06 though, I don't think Pazzo makes them for my bike.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by drsketch

maybe I worded that wrong... I wait until I am in an rpm to shift to lower hear without jerking too bad or skidding the back tired. yes the rpms raise either more or slightly more depending on what I am at but big deal

Not sure I see the point in all that revving to try and make some ultra smoother transition into the next lower gear, I mean I am not in the 2010 taurus im on the bike.

It has to do with two things:

1 - Keeping the bike in the power band
2 - Keeping the chassis settled (jerking is bad, smooth is good - when the bike isn't bucking around you've got more control)

Done right, you can carry much higher speeds and be in much more positive control of the bike.

It's also more fun.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by AgentCircus

I feel like I have way better control and feel for the brakes when I use my index and middle fingers. My gloves also have tacky strips on those fingers as well, so it makes it very easy to grab.

As far as blipping the throttle, I'm not advanced enough to do it while braking - but I can definitely see that it would take some getting used to. With that said, once you have the movement down, you wouldn't really need a "feel" for the throttle. I'd argue that the index and middle fingers are more precise fingers - we have way more control over them. I'd reserve those for the squeezing the brake lever, which in my opinion is more important than blipping the throttle.

Is there a way to move the brake lever closer to the throttle? That might make it easier.

I disagree about feel for the throttle.

Rather than post out of speculation, go out, actually try it and report back. You definitely do need to modulate the throttle as well as the brakes while downshifting and time it all correctly.

You don't want to let go of the clutch while the throttle is still open or the bike lurches... you want to let it out while the engine revs are coming back down after the blip.

You don't want to alter pressure on the brake as you move the throttle either, or the bike lurches.

So with the same hand you're both twisting the throttle AND squeezing the brake lever smoothly, consistently and progressively. Two different motions.

It's like this... keep constant, light to moderate pressure on the brake lever. Now, WITHOUT CHANGING THAT PRESSURE, pull in the clutch, blip the throttle while shifting, and let out the clutch IMMEDIATELY after blipping so the engine revs haven't gone too low.

If you do it right it'll be turbine-smooth. If you do it wrong it'll be like a bucking horse.

[AgentCircus]

I tried it. It's more of learning to get comfortable using those fingers when blipping the throttle for me, but I still don't feel like I need a precise feel over it, not as much as I do with the brake or the clutch. I don't get what you mean by modulate the throttle? You're fingers are on the throttle for less than a second. You're just matching revs, you blip accordingly and that's it. It definitely doesn't involve as much control and care as using the front brake.

Like you said, you're moderating the brake pressure - which involves precision, and you're letting out the clutch smoothly - again involving precision. I guess if you feel like you can by as precise with your brake lever using the your middle, ring, and pinky fingers then you're fine with the method you developed.

[smcbride11]

I find (on both the clutch and brake levers) that my index finger ends up extending out over the lever itself - the pressure I apply to both levers is all from my middle and ring fingers.

With that in mind, I usually blip the throttle by actually using the heel of my hand. It's a more difficult motion, because you have to keep the brake pressure steady with two fingers while your whole hand is moving... but I find that I can rev match pretty well that way and don't end up overrevving too much on a downshift.

[tapdiggy]

I like to throw the rear brake into the mix when downshifting. I keep the throttle steady with my ring and pinky while applying front brake with my index and middle fingers, and put some pressure to the rear brake; just enough to feel it resist the engine. The rear brake helps me spread out the task of braking as a whole so I can put some dexterity into the throttle fingers. It also gives some insurance against lurching forward if you blip too soon, without adequately disengaging the clutch, which is unnerving approaching a busy intersection. I don't know how appropriate this is to the technique being discussed, but food for thought.

[mrlmd]

Just to throw out something else on here, to make a quick panic stop, not just slowing down, the quickest way to stop (shortest distance traveled) is not to downshift, but pull in the clutch to disengage the engine from the rear wheel and apply both front and rear brakes appropriately.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by mrlmd

Just to throw out something else on here, to make a quick panic stop, not just slowing down, the quickest way to stop (shortest distance traveled) is not to downshift, but pull in the clutch to disengage the engine from the rear wheel and apply both front and rear brakes appropriately.

+1

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Talonne

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

Vid of the clutch work: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...5&postcount=13

Link to article and pictures: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=22

[AgentCircus]

Nice posts Jeff. Should we be slipping the clutch for every shift, or only when downshifting? I've been pulling the clutch all the way in for upshifting and downshifting.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by AgentCircus

Nice posts Jeff. Should we be slipping the clutch for every shift, or only when downshifting? I've been pulling the clutch all the way in for upshifting and downshifting.

In my experience, you do not have to pull in the clutch lever all the way in for either up or down shifts. The wet clutch on the bike is meant to be slipped (friction zone) it is not like a car clutch. I only use two fingers on the clutch when clutching (up and down - I only use all fingers when holding it in at a light). the two fingers left on the grip act as a "stop" so you do not pull the clutch all the way in. A light touch on the clutch really smoothed up my downshifting (and upshifting).

[AgentCircus]

Originally Posted by JeffM

In my experience, you do not have to pull in the clutch lever all the way in for either up or down shifts. The wet clutch on the bike is meant to be slipped (friction zone) it is not like a car clutch. I only use two fingers on the clutch when clutching (up and down - I only use all fingers when holding it in at a light). the two fingers left on the grip act as a "stop" so you do not pull the clutch all the way in. A light touch on the clutch really smoothed up my downshifting (and upshifting).

Cool. I'll be trying this over the weekend.

[JeffM]

Michael, let us know how it goes.

[spooph]

Another good way to practice using the clutch lightly is to eliminate it completely. Learn to shift up and down without using the clutch at all, and then add in as much clutch as you need to smooth things out...

To learn to shift without the clutch going up through the gears, keep it below 6K, when ready to shift, let off the throttle, and within 1/2 second to a second, click the next gear up. Downshift, let off the throttle for a brief bit, and while simultenously revving the engine quickly, but not a whole lot, click down into the next gear.

I'll try and include this in the video I'm making...

[Talonne]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Vid of the clutch work: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...5&postcount=13

Link to article and pictures: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=22

Do you have any videos of the right side? I don't know what I'm doing wrong... I can have my hand exactly like in your pictures, but I cannot physically rotate the throttle with my hand in that position. Maybe it is just too far of a reach and I need shorty levers, I don't know... My hands are definitely on the small side.

[JeffM]

Look here in the video column: http://www.starmotorcycle.com/gallery.html

I cannot open the one titled "Downshifting / Blipping have you confused?" here at work but I bet it has some information that could help.

Look at some of the other race track videos and you might see some right hand blipping too.

[adouglas]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[JeffM]

Here we go. A video looking down at both hands while braking and downshifting plus some good stuff on traction with Keith Code's slide bike:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[spooph]

I'm no Keith Code, nor is this video instructional, but rather simply illustrational. I said I would make it, so I have. I hope it helps. This was made on my commute to work, and some riding in-town.

Obviously, the big difference between this vid and Code/MCN's video is that this is actually a 250, driven where it's most likely to be driven - the open road.

Link to original page on YouTube.

This site isn't like others. How do I embed a vid?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by spooph

How do I embed a vid?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5900