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Old August 18th, 2017, 04:23 AM   #1
Yakaru
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Coach comparison

Okay, this seems pretty cool. Photographer got my coach, Lyle, and I from almost exactly the same shooting position when we were in almost exactly the same track position with very similar speeds...

Similarities:
We both look 'relaxed' on the bars in the same way. My arm position looks pretty good (I think)
We both are probably looking at the same place from what I can tell (see differences below)

Differences:
Lyle looks to be apexing a hair later than I am. He's 'rounded' the corner less than I have. Notice you can see less of the photo-side-right of his tire and fairings.
Some upper body position differences (he's... less far forward but farther to the inside? maybe? height differences make this a bit harder to say for sure)
Lyle is [most likely] looking more directly forward, while I am using my eye motion more - so I'm looking 'out the corner' whereas he's moving his head sooner.
Lyle looks like he's probably (relatively) sitting a bit closer on the tank than I am, and opening his legs/hips more to get his knee down sooner than I would. Again, height differences coming into play.

Don't want to over focus, and some things may be style differences and not improvements, but I think there may be some things here I could learn with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LowRezLyleOnLeft.jpg (69.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg LowRezLyleOnRight.jpg (71.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg LowRezOverlay3983-3985.jpg (72.9 KB, 13 views)
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Old August 18th, 2017, 07:50 AM   #2
Yakaru
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MOTM - Jun '16
I'd love for @Misti (and others) to chime in on my head/eye position -- I wore a clear shield for 2 days just so I could check this again after seeing it for the first time last month at The Ridge...

I am clearly, in many pictures other than this one, looking through the corner of my eye pretty regularly. I'm wondering if it is a problem that needs to be addressed or not. On the one hand, it works for me... but I don't see many (any?) other riders doing this and I have to presume that's for a reason.
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Old August 18th, 2017, 12:32 PM   #3
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Please post the photos separately. Thanks
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Old August 18th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #4
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The main 100% thing i first see right off the bat is how far up your shoulders are vs the coach. I know you said you felt relaxed, but your shoulders are telling me something else. Its hard to hide body language, sometimes is even harder to detect it in the moment and takes a review of photos/vid to pick up on it.
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Old August 18th, 2017, 02:36 PM   #5
Yakaru
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MOTM - Jun '16
Ah, I guess I could post the raw pictures -- I was waiting to get the full set in for a 'CSS @ CotA' set but these two make sense to put here.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3983 (2).jpg (70.7 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3985 (2).jpg (70.7 KB, 97 views)
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Old August 18th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #6
Yakaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
The main 100% thing i first see right off the bat is how far up your shoulders are vs the coach. I know you said you felt relaxed, but your shoulders are telling me something else. Its hard to hide body language, sometimes is even harder to detect it in the moment and takes a review of photos/vid to pick up on it.
Sorry, should've defined what I meant by relaxed -- I carry a boatload tension in my upper back and shoulders at basically all times, on a motorcycle or not. I've had multiple professional masseuses work on that for hours and never get it to ease up more than a hair. I'd love to fix it, but I've never had anything do the job (To give an idea of that: this was first noticed by my gymnastics coach when I was in elementary school). I mostly try to make sure I'm not letting the elbows and wrists carry that tension into the bars for steering inputs.

If I had a way to let that tension out though, I'm sure it would do a lot of good.
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Old August 18th, 2017, 02:51 PM   #7
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Old August 20th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Ah, I guess I could post the raw pictures -- I was waiting to get the full set in for a 'CSS @ CotA' set but these two make sense to put here.


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Old August 29th, 2017, 09:31 PM   #9
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I think that each person depending on size and style and how hard they were riding in the pic will look slightly different and that you may be looking a little bit too hard at the pics in order to analyze your own riding. Overall your body position looks really good and has gotten a ton better. The biggest difference i see here is really how your inside shoulder is still pulled in, held in tightly towards the tank whereas Lyle is letting his shoulder fall open and towards the turn a little more. I'm trying to dig up photos of me from similar angle to show that we each look slightly different....where you are looking too is hard to tell from the photo.

It looks like Lyle is looking directly at the camera in this pic, hahaha but I assure you he is not. As you well know there are a series of points/areas you should look at in a specific sequence so simply looking through the turn isn't clear enough as looking at the apex then the exit area etc.....

Quickly, here is one photo I found...I'm on a little bike though
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8745.JPG (139.3 KB, 2 views)
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Old August 29th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #10
Misti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
I think that each person depending on size and style and how hard they were riding in the pic will look slightly different and that you may be looking a little bit too hard at the pics in order to analyze your own riding. Overall your body position looks really good and has gotten a ton better. The biggest difference i see here is really how your inside shoulder is still pulled in, held in tightly towards the tank whereas Lyle is letting his shoulder fall open and towards the turn a little more. I'm trying to dig up photos of me from similar angle to show that we each look slightly different....where you are looking too is hard to tell from the photo.

It looks like Lyle is looking directly at the camera in this pic, hahaha but I assure you he is not. As you well know there are a series of points/areas you should look at in a specific sequence so simply looking through the turn isn't clear enough as looking at the apex then the exit area etc.....

Quickly, here is one photo I found...I'm on a little bike though
See how I/we are dropping a little more into the turn while you are a little more crunched in tightly to the bike. Our hips are open more and pointing into the turn, hence the knee position as well.,... hope that helps?
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Old August 30th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #11
Yakaru
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MOTM - Jun '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
See how I/we are dropping a little more into the turn while you are a little more crunched in tightly to the bike. Our hips are open more and pointing into the turn, hence the knee position as well.,... hope that helps?
Definitely not trying to be a 'mirror' of Lyle, it was more a 'compare and contrast' than a 'how can I make myself look just like Lyle' (though more like Lyle in some regards would obviously be a win, seeing how skilled a rider he is!)

As for your comments: Hmm... I think I can kind of see it. When you say 'open hips more' can you put that in different words? I think that was one of those phrases I was interpreting differently that made my BP such a struggle. Do you mean like a hip-flexor leg rotation (where the leg is rotated from the hip joint farther out) or do you mean something more like a body rotation where the hips themselves move into the turn more?

For the shoulder the same question -- do you mean his body is 'tilting' more to the side rather than falling/crunching towards the tank?

As for the eyes: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not 'dead on' at the camera, but I've purposefully been riding with a clear shield to test a theory that seems to be bearing out. When Keith does his wide view 'lecture' to start Level 4 he talks about how far something moves to the side before our heads turn rather than our eyes. I've been testing this myself and find turning my head is actually pretty unnatural -- I let my eyes follow it all the way to the edge of their limit before I move my head. When I look at pics of myself and other riders in corners while 'straight ahead' isn't common, I find their eyes are much more 'centered' than my own. I've got a couple shots where I'm clearly at just about the limit of how far my eyes can rotate. Part of me wonders if this is a stylistic difference, but I've started taking a SOMA series and we ended up talking about this and she mentioned she's run into it before and it's common with anxious personalities and is related to my 'tense shoulders' (she did a cool trick where she put her hands on my neck/shoulders and could tell me where my eyes were looking from behind me). I dunno if we'll be able to do anything with it but if you've got thoughts or advice I'm all ears!
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Old September 1st, 2017, 07:46 AM   #12
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My two cents: You're body position is not hindering your riding one bit. What is going on between your ears and the effect is has on how relaxed/tense you are has far more effect on your riding.

My advice at this point: Just go ride the track without really trying to do anything but enjoy being on the track. No "How's my body position", "am I looking in the right place", "am I hitting my turn-in", etc.
Go enjoy yourself on the track a bunch of times without worrying about anything having to do with your performance on the bike. Then when you get to the point where you are naturally improving your riding bit by bit because you are more relaxed in general, you can start being more intentional about it.

Another key is that a rider shouldn't try to go faster everywhere on the track at once. It helps to only work on one or two corners that are at different parts of the track, and leaving your riding the other corners the same for the time being. Then when you are satisfied with your progress in those first corners you were working on, you pick two more corners and so on. Even with your work on body position I would do this because your ability to focus on other aspects of your riding is diminished if your attention is focused on body position everywhere.
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Old September 1st, 2017, 09:01 AM   #13
Yakaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
My two cents: You're body position is not hindering your riding one bit. What is going on between your ears and the effect is has on how relaxed/tense you are has far more effect on your riding.

My advice at this point: Just go ride the track without really trying to do anything but enjoy being on the track. No "How's my body position", "am I looking in the right place", "am I hitting my turn-in", etc.
Go enjoy yourself on the track a bunch of times without worrying about anything having to do with your performance on the bike. Then when you get to the point where you are naturally improving your riding bit by bit because you are more relaxed in general, you can start being more intentional about it.
If I'm not practicing a skill, I'm not enjoying myself. I'm weird that way, but last year I found it to be very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
Another key is that a rider shouldn't try to go faster everywhere on the track at once. It helps to only work on one or two corners that are at different parts of the track, and leaving your riding the other corners the same for the time being. Then when you are satisfied with your progress in those first corners you were working on, you pick two more corners and so on. Even with your work on body position I would do this because your ability to focus on other aspects of your riding is diminished if your attention is focused on body position everywhere.
Oh yeah, focusing on specific skills or turns is a big part of what I do. I'm also not drilling into BP every session. I'm just discussing it here since I thought the picture overlay was really cool and because I spent time on it this year with my coaches, especially Lyle, and I'm trying to get it "set" as well as I can so that I'll have a minimum time next year having to remember it when track season starts up again.
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Old September 1st, 2017, 10:15 AM   #14
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im the same way, i cant just joy ride, maybe a session or two, for the day, ill play around with my son, but the rest of the time were working on something.thats what we enjoy. aimless riding just for fun is not that fun.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 02:46 PM   #15
Misti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Definitely not trying to be a 'mirror' of Lyle, it was more a 'compare and contrast' than a 'how can I make myself look just like Lyle' (though more like Lyle in some regards would obviously be a win, seeing how skilled a rider he is!)

As for your comments: Hmm... I think I can kind of see it. When you say 'open hips more' can you put that in different words? I think that was one of those phrases I was interpreting differently that made my BP such a struggle. Do you mean like a hip-flexor leg rotation (where the leg is rotated from the hip joint farther out) or do you mean something more like a body rotation where the hips themselves move into the turn more?

For the shoulder the same question -- do you mean his body is 'tilting' more to the side rather than falling/crunching towards the tank?

As for the eyes: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not 'dead on' at the camera, but I've purposefully been riding with a clear shield to test a theory that seems to be bearing out. When Keith does his wide view 'lecture' to start Level 4 he talks about how far something moves to the side before our heads turn rather than our eyes. I've been testing this myself and find turning my head is actually pretty unnatural -- I let my eyes follow it all the way to the edge of their limit before I move my head. When I look at pics of myself and other riders in corners while 'straight ahead' isn't common, I find their eyes are much more 'centered' than my own. I've got a couple shots where I'm clearly at just about the limit of how far my eyes can rotate. Part of me wonders if this is a stylistic difference, but I've started taking a SOMA series and we ended up talking about this and she mentioned she's run into it before and it's common with anxious personalities and is related to my 'tense shoulders' (she did a cool trick where she put her hands on my neck/shoulders and could tell me where my eyes were looking from behind me). I dunno if we'll be able to do anything with it but if you've got thoughts or advice I'm all ears!
Open hips more: Point hips into the direction of the turn. Outside knee presses in even more and hips aim away from the tank more towards the mirror? Better. Hahaha. opening the knee up can help with this but it really is angling the hips.

Shoulder: yes tilting more towards the side as opposed to into the tank. Almost like you are just letting yourself fall over, leading with the shoulder. Yours tends to eek in towards the tank instead of towards the ground. Does that make sense?

Hard to tell what your eyes are looking at from a pic. The results will be in your line.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8745.JPG (139.3 KB, 2 views)
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