Ecotrons Install Thread

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Sounds like your map sensor got flooded. Several people have reported that problem. Take it loose. Sit it in the sun for an hour. Put it back on and see if it works. If not, it may need to be replaced.

It sat in the garage over night, is therea possibility that it is still flooded? It doesn't smell like gas...

where would i get another one, and how much would it likely cost?

i just put it outside in the 90+ heat.

Also, can someone pm me Matt's phone number? I seem to have lost it. I would hate to just be sitting here wasting time on the one day I don't work late this week.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

It sat in the garage over night, is therea possibility that it is still flooded? It doesn't smell like gas...

where would i get another one, and how much would it likely cost?

i just put it outside in the 90+ heat.

@ecotrons was just replacing them for free for the people in the group buy that got stranded. I don't know where you could buy one if he wont give you one. I think the ratio was about half where half got it to work again and the other didn't.

The MAP sensor is one of two critical sensors. The TPS being the other. The EFI can't work without both. Obviously, the ECU does not have a "limp home" mode or else that's where you would be.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

@ecotrons was just replacing them for free for the people in the group buy that got stranded. I don't know where you could buy one if he wont give you one. I think the ratio was about half where half got it to work again and the other didn't.

The MAP sensor is one of two critical sensors. The TPS being the other. The EFI can't work without both. Obviously, the ECU does not have a "limp home" mode or else that's where you would be.

I know for a fact the TPS is good based on the measurement from ProCAL, so it must be the MAP. I'll see what happens when I put it back from outside, but I doubt anything will change. Hopefully he can get one of those to me rather quickly. I'll even pay for expidited shipping.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Even with my map sensor completely unplugged, the map shows 109 actually. IDK if that is normal or not.

can you change the units to psi and the the guage to show vacuum.

im not used to tuning in metric...

i think its right though, since 100kpa equals, 1atm or 14.5psi

maybe a setting is wrong, or you updated the firmwire but not the cal, vice versa...

[Jiggles]

The bike was running fine before the valve adjustment, I doubt adjusting the valves flooded the MAP sensor if it ran fine before

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The bike was running fine before the valve adjustment, I doubt adjusting the valves flooded the MAP sensor if it ran fine before

The timing does seem strange, but the video clearly shows a fuel starved engine running for a few seconds on a priming pulse.

[lolibater]

Yeah it is weird that it ran once, and then never again. Or just ran shittier until not at all.

[n4mwd]

Just curious, but did you try disconnecting the battery completely for 30 seconds and reconnecting it. The ECU is directly connected and doesn't require the switch to be on to get power. Just a theory, but the problem with the fuel pump and connectors may have confused it. Also, I'd check those connectors again just to make sure a pin didn't get out of place.

Time to get the MAP sensor and retry it.

[ecotrons]

lolibater,

I replied your email, to let others here know, I copy it here:

The MAP sensor signal is not normal compared to a good runing case.
MAP sensor itself may not be damaged, at least it still measures. The signal is abnormal, during crank, your vacuum is not enough low. The vacuum in the intake manifold also oscillates in one cycle.
It seems the intake valve timing is not perfect, or the intake valve is not shut off completely.
Please double check the intake valves.

Other than that, EFI is running normally. Both fuel and spark are commanded correctly.

Wierd it does not even try to fire.

For the sake of verification, I can send you a MAP sensor, you only need to pay the shipping.

[ecotrons]

You battery is also a little low. less than 12V.

You starter can only generate about 300 RPM as compared to 370 rpm of other cases.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

You battery is also a little low. less than 12V.

You starter can only generate about 300 RPM as compared to 370 rpm of other cases.

We just measured it with 12.03. Eiher way we are going to charge it. We are goign to adjust the valves yet again. This will be our fourth time.

Are you 100% sure there no way that it could be the MAP sensor?

[lolibater]

A quick question for you while we're adjusting valves:

If the MAP sensor is constantly reading atmospheric pressure 1bar, that would indicate one of two things. Either we have a valve stuck open or a malfunctioning MAP sensor. If a valve was stuck open, the compression reading would be 0 as opposd to the current reading of 115.

Have any of you others had a bad MAP sensor before? What were the symptoms?

If you set your valves to the loosest factory spec setting, TDC or not, is it possible for one of the valves to become bent?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

A quick question for you while we're adjusting valves:

If the MAP sensor is constantly reading atmospheric pressure 1bar, that would indicate one of two things. Either we have a valve stuck open or a malfunctioning MAP sensor. If a valve was stuck open, the compression reading would be 0 as opposd to the current reading of 115.

Have any of you others had a bad MAP sensor before? What were the symptoms?

haven't had one go wrong on a bike...

do you have a vacuum pump or something?
maybe you can hook up the tube to it, and see if it changes.

Originally Posted by lolibater

If you set your valves to the loosest factory spec setting, TDC or not, is it possible for one of the valves to become bent?

not possible unless something else is wrong,
if its within specs it should be ok

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by lolibater

We just measured it with 12.03. Eiher way we are going to charge it. We are goign to adjust the valves yet again. This will be our fourth time.

Are you 100% sure there no way that it could be the MAP sensor?

Are you checking it under load? Even a dead battery will read 12V under no load.

Originally Posted by lolibater

A quick question for you while we're adjusting valves:

If the MAP sensor is constantly reading atmospheric pressure 1bar, that would indicate one of two things. Either we have a valve stuck open or a malfunctioning MAP sensor. If a valve was stuck open, the compression reading would be 0 as opposd to the current reading of 115.

Have any of you others had a bad MAP sensor before? What were the symptoms?

If you set your valves to the loosest factory spec setting, TDC or not, is it possible for one of the valves to become bent?

Considering that one day the bike was running fine and then next day it wasn't and the only changes were to the valves its most likely a valve issue. It would be highly unlikely that at the same time you adjust the valves the MAP sensor goes out when faced with the problem that you are currently having

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by lolibater

We just measured it with 12.03. Eiher way we are going to charge it. We are goign to adjust the valves yet again. This will be our fourth time.

Are you 100% sure there no way that it could be the MAP sensor?

@Jiggles is right, with load the battery is 11.86v. Other bikes show 12.45v at the same condition. But this is not too bad.

I am not 100% sure, unless I am on site. That's why I am willing to give you a MAP sensor to verify.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by lolibater

If the MAP sensor is constantly reading atmospheric pressure 1bar,

Your data show:
The MAP sensor reads about 800hPa, which is 11.6psi. during cranking.
as compared to good cases: 720hPa, which is 10.6psi. during cranking.
When engine is not turning. the MAP sensor shows 1 bar.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

We just measured it with 12.03. Eiher way we are going to charge it. We are goign to adjust the valves yet again. This will be our fourth time.

Are you 100% sure there no way that it could be the MAP sensor?

Some MAP sensors are analog and can be tested with a multimeter. Matt can chime in regarding the testing process if it is.

As far as the battery voltage, 12.03 is a dead battery. You want to see 12.7. I suggest that you disconnect the battery for charging. Charging in-circuit could damage your rectifier.

Originally Posted by lolibater

Have any of you others had a bad MAP sensor before? What were the symptoms?

If you set your valves to the loosest factory spec setting, TDC or not, is it possible for one of the valves to become bent?

Its possible that the cam chain got off a peg. Normally you wouldn't touch the cams on a pregen. The manual shows how to check to make sure its tight and aligned properly. Very simple once the valve cover is off.

If the valve is stuck open, you will notice an unusually big gap when you go to adjust it. Setting the gaps wide (loose) makes the valves not open as wide which translates into better idling.

If the engine was destroyed due to overtorquing the rocker nuts, you would see all the rockers snapped off or missing. It wouldn't run at all if that was the case.

Just for reference, the clearances are:
0.003" - 0.005" for the intake valve clearance
0.004" - 0.006" for the exhaust valve clearance
The bolded values are the preferred values.

But if it is the valves, the compression would indicate the one with the lower compression number was not at the proper TDC when it was set.

As a quick check for the MAP sensor, @Jiggles might let you borrow his for a test since you both live in the same town.

[ecotrons]

MAP sensor signal can not be checked with a digital meter because it changes so fast, a lot of pulsations. ECU measures it in 1ms rate (1/1000 second).

Lolibater,
I am shipping out a MAP sensor to you. You own me $10 shipping.
I am signing off, again, it's 11pm here in MI.

[lolibater]

We made sure that we adjusted the valves at exactly TDC this time.

It sounds a bit higher pitched when it trys to start, and there is a depper kind of sound coming from the back of the exhuast pipe, but doesn't start.

I will hook it up to ProCal and report findings.

[choneofakind]

That deeper sound out the pipes sounds kinda like a low-pitched popping right? That's air moving in and out of the cylinders as the valves open and close. That's normal.

fwiw, Your map sensor likely isn't helping, but get a good battery in there. When I was having issues with draining my tiny battery, I always knew when it was low because it was a b!tch to start. The thing would crank all day long, but it wouldn't turn over on its own.

12v without load means that thing is dead. It should be higher than that with load, even higher without.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...attery_is_dead

[lolibater]

The MAP sensor reads 1 bar still, but fluctuates when I blow or suck on it. The bike sounds higher pitched when I try to start it, but it does not start.

We just did antoher compression test
cyl 1: 25
cyl 2: 25

the spark plugs look as if they have black dust on the end of them. I recorded some new ecotrons data as well.

we are droping hte header some other day to visually inspect valves

Is it possible that when we grounded the ignition wire that we burned out the CDI or something? I'm really at a loss of how the hell this all happened. What could have moved the timing? It doesn't seem possible.

Can somebody set up a time with me to do a remote desktop session while I am connected to my laptop so that you can see for yourself what is up with procal.

Assume the valves are fine; then what?

[138]

I too am at a loss here. We adjusted the valve clearances at TDC to the loosest factory spec, the bolded numbers n4mwd metioned. Now both cylinders have insanely low compression, how?! Bent valves? It's proposterous to think that the valves are bent from being set too loose. I made sure they were a bit tight on the bolded feelers (.005 in .006 ex) all along. Now once they're set on TDC the compression is gone? How is this possible? Could too loose of a setting bend a valve? Like .008 or .009?

[n4mwd]

Just so we're clear.

You turned the crank and verified that in "IN" and "EX" marks on the cam chain sprockets line up with the top of the cylinder head. You might have needed to turn the crank through as much as two revolutions.

By poking at it, you verified that your cam chain is tight with no slack.

You visually inspected all 8 of your rocker arms to make sure that they were still there and not broken or bent or have their dog ears broken. Dog ears surround the valve stem and keep the rocker in place. They are very small. You might have needed a dental mirror or equivalent.

You moved the crank so that 1|T was in the window aligned with the pointer and the cam lobes on the left side of the bike (cylinder #1) was positioned like "\ /" and then adjusted the clearances for both intake and exhaust for the left side only (4 valves) to the clearances I gave using SAE INCH feeler gauges.

Then you moved the crank so that 2|T was in the window and cam lobes on the #2 cylinder were positions like "\ /" and then set the clearances on the remaining 4 valves on the #2 cylinder for for intake and exhaust.

Then you rotated the crank two full revolutions and went back and rechecked the clearances for both the 1|T and 2|T marks to make sure nothing was cocked when you measured it.

If you did all that, then the next step is to inspect your valves. There are many ways to do this. The easiest would be to rent/borrow/buy a borescope camera that can go down in the spark plug hole and let you look around.

Another way is to simply remove the head and look at them, but that requires purchasing a $20 gasket.

But before you do any of that, it is very difficult to damage the valves by misadjusting them (unless you overtorque them). So I don't think they are damaged.

Also, based on the fact that you were able to get the MAP sensor to work by blowing on it, then it is probably not bad. So its most likely not the EFI system. You verified the TPS was working. The fact that it ran a little bit means the crank position sensor was working also.

Finally, please tell us how many miles are on the bike. You might have already done that, but I don't feel like going back and looking for it.

[flynjay]

Compression tests are supposed to be run with the engine fully warmed up. A cold engine will produce less compression. Since you have not run the engine in a while and have been trying to start it, gas has wipped the oil out of the piston rings making the compression readings even lower. I would not take too much stock in the compression readings.

Verify that you are not getting air into the fuel pump. If it seems to be a higher pitch, it is trying to pump air. The pitch of the pump will change once it gets full of fuel. It seems that you are getting the system initially pressurized then after start the fuel pressure drops off and you cannot maintain running.

I believe you have added the quick disconnects correct? Did your fuel routing geometry change? Is it possible to record the sound of the fuel pump priming when you turn the key? It is pretty easy to tell the difference in sound.

[138]

The mileage is 20,226. I didn't align the marks on the camshaft with the marks on the flywheel. I just rotated it until I was TDC based on flywheel marks, rocker arm slack and cam lobe direction "\ /" . Sometimes the lobes were a little more out than up.

[138]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Compression tests are supposed to be run with the engine fully warmed up. A cold engine will produce less compression. Since you have not run the engine in a while and have been trying to start it, gas has wipped the oil out of the piston rings making the compression readings even lower. I would not take too much stock in the compression readings.

Verify that you are not getting air into the fuel pump. If it seems to be a higher pitch, it is trying to pump air. The pitch of the pump will change once it gets full of fuel. It seems that you are getting the system initially pressurized then after start the fuel pressure drops off and you cannot maintain running.

I believe you have added the quick disconnects correct? Did your fuel routing geometry change? Is it possible to record the sound of the fuel pump priming when you turn the key? It is pretty easy to tell the difference in sound.

Now that you mention it, the fuel pump went from a higher pitched humming to a lower humming, I thought maybe the fuel pump was burning up. We did add quick disconnects and it did change the routing, I am suspicious of the routing myself. I will take pictures of the hose routing and record the pump for you.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by 138

Now that you mention it, the fuel pump went from a higher pitched humming to a lower humming, I thought maybe the fuel pump was burning up. We did add quick disconnects and it did change the routing, I am suspicious of the routing myself. I will take pictures of the hose routing and record the pump for you.

That high pitch to low pitch was the pump getting primmed.

Remember that the system really doesn't measure fuel pressure anywhere. It assumes the pressure regulator and fuel pump are providing the correct pressure. If the pump is not developing full pressure the injectors will be putting out less fuel than required, since their pulse width is making the assumption it has full pressure.

[138]

But the pitch of the priming has permanently changed, it's a deeper tone now where it was a higher tone before. Does it matter that we primed the fuel pump with the gas tank off and the fuel lines blocked by the disconnects? I was worried that might have caused the fuel pump to work harder than it should.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by 138

But the pitch of the priming has permanently changed, it's a deeper tone now where it was a higher tone before. Does it matter that we primed the fuel pump with the gas tank off and the fuel lines blocked by the disconnects? I was worried that might have caused the fuel pump to work harder than it should.

It should be ok. If you were to empty the fuel system, the pitch should go back up.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Just so we're clear.

You turned the crank and verified that in "IN" and "EX" marks on the cam chain sprockets line up with the top of the cylinder head. You might have needed to turn the crank through as much as two revolutions.

By poking at it, you verified that your cam chain is tight with no slack.

You visually inspected all 8 of your rocker arms to make sure that they were still there and not broken or bent or have their dog ears broken. Dog ears surround the valve stem and keep the rocker in place. They are very small. You might have needed a dental mirror or equivalent.

You moved the crank so that 1|T was in the window aligned with the pointer and the cam lobes on the left side of the bike (cylinder #1) was positioned like "\ /" and then adjusted the clearances for both intake and exhaust for the left side only (4 valves) to the clearances I gave using SAE INCH feeler gauges.

Then you moved the crank so that 2|T was in the window and cam lobes on the #2 cylinder were positions like "\ /" and then set the clearances on the remaining 4 valves on the #2 cylinder for for intake and exhaust.

Then you rotated the crank two full revolutions and went back and rechecked the clearances for both the 1|T and 2|T marks to make sure nothing was cocked when you measured it.

If you did all that, then the next step is to inspect your valves. There are many ways to do this. The easiest would be to rent/borrow/buy a borescope camera that can go down in the spark plug hole and let you look around.

Another way is to simply remove the head and look at them, but that requires purchasing a $20 gasket.

But before you do any of that, it is very difficult to damage the valves by misadjusting them (unless you overtorque them). So I don't think they are damaged.

Also, based on the fact that you were able to get the MAP sensor to work by blowing on it, then it is probably not bad. So its most likely not the EFI system. You verified the TPS was working. The fact that it ran a little bit means the crank position sensor was working also.

Finally, please tell us how many miles are on the bike. You might have already done that, but I don't feel like going back and looking for it.

I did not verify the cam chain timing, as we are absolutely positive that we did not touch that. It did not move. It is on there extremely tight, and for us to have moved it, we would have, at the very least, noticed it.

We did the TDC adjustment with the 1|T and 2|T marks with the lobes like \ /

We made sure that it was the proper clearance. Over and over. .005" on the intake and .006" on the exhaust

Why would my MAP sensor be reading 1 bar, instead of 0, like in the youtube link?

We're planning to drop the exhaust and look at the valves, but I honestly don't see how we could have been a valve.

40 hours spent on this in the past week; we are chasing ghosts.

How the hell did we have at least moderately decent compression using the non-TDC adjustment method, but as soon as we switch to doing a TDC adjustment, we have little to no compression in either cyl?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by 138

But the pitch of the priming has permanently changed, it's a deeper tone now where it was a higher tone before. Does it matter that we primed the fuel pump with the gas tank off and the fuel lines blocked by the disconnects? I was worried that might have caused the fuel pump to work harder than it should.

could have,
the fuel pump should not be run with no fuel though, it might overheat.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by lgk

could have,
the fuel pump should not be run with no fuel though, it might overheat.

It never felt physically hot. We only operated the pump without the tank a handful of times.

[138]

Originally Posted by lgk

could have,
the fuel pump should not be run with no fuel though, it might overheat.

Also, by deeper tone I also mean slower, it sounds slower now like it's working too hard. We made a few changes in 1 day and had a wiring mishap so we're all topsy turvy and trying to figure this all out.

[lolibater]

It's crazy to think that this all started with a grounded ignition wire. Idk if it's just the valves now, and that the ECU and other electronics are perfectly fine, or if it's that the valves are in fact properly adjusted, and there is an electronics problem.

The blown fuse should indicate that no other damage happened right? Isn't that the point of the fuse?

[flynjay]

You guys need to pause and step back a little.

Start over with your troubleshooting.

1. Verify valve clearance and timing (personally I use the non-TDC method).
2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders.
3. Verify that you have fuel flow with no airbubbles in system.
4. Verify that you have a fully charged battery.
5. Try to start

[138]

Originally Posted by flynjay

You guys need to pause and step back a little.

Start over with your troubleshooting.

1. Verify valve clearance and timing (personally I use the non-TDC method).
2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders.
3. Verify that you have fuel flow with no airbubbles in system.
4. Verify that you have a fully charged battery.
5. Try to start

1. Verify valve clearance and timing:
- We verified the valve clearance last night using TDC method, but haven't tampered with the timing other than adjusting valve clearance to loosest factory spec i.e. .005 on intake and .006 on exhaust.

2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders:
- We grounded the plugs and got a nice constant blue spark on both cylinders.

3. Verify that you have fuel flow with no airbubbles in system.
- There are tiny air bubbles in certain parts of the clear tubing and the fuel filter casing is half filled with air. I've suspected the fuel line since we adding tubing but I didn't think it could be the cause of all of this.

4. Verify that you have a fully charged battery.
- The battery is fully charged, sitting at 12.58 right now.

5. Try to start:
- Nothing Cranks but won't fire.

[lolibater]

and yes, .005" / .006", NOT mm.

[ecotrons]

To double check the EFI, please do this:

1) unplug the return line from the quick disconnect (which you added), let it open on the return line side; key on, and hear pump noise, and you should see fuel coming out of the return line.

2) also do this during crank, use a contrainer, meaning all your returning fuel goes in the contrainer. This way verify the pump is working.

3) Get a fuel pressure gauge, inserted in the high pressure line (with a T), check whether you get 3 bar or 40psi absolute pressure. There is a slight chance that during your installing quick disconnect, the pump was pumping with the return line blocked, and the pressure regulator was over-pressured and damaged. This check requires you buy the gauge and a brass T pipe. But if you exhaust all measures and still think EFI might be the reason, this needs to be checked.

4) Pull out the spark plugs, and use spare plugs or even bad plugs just to seal the holes, unconnected. Crank the engine, check whether the connected plugs generating sparks or not? If not, either plugs are bad, or ECU command somehow is not reaching the plug. check wires.

@Lolibator,
You mentioned CDI, I wan to make sure the stock CDI is removed, and ignition coils are connected to ECU directly.

4) Pull out the spare plugs, for sealing, you should smell some gas there. Otherwise, somehow the fuel is not injected. check fuel injector wires.

These are just for double checks. I think the wires should be fine, since you guys check it many times.

Again, air, fuel , spark, are the primary 3, if you have them in the combustion chamber, and timing is correct, the engine should start, at least try to fire.

@Lolibator,
Where is the new data?

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

To double check the EFI, please do this:

1) unplug the return line from the quick disconnect (which you added), let it open on the return line side; key on, and hear pump noise, and you should see fuel coming out of the return line.

2) also do this during crank, use a contrainer, meaning all your returning fuel goes in the contrainer. This way verify the pump is working.

3) Get a fuel pressure gauge, inserted in the high pressure line (with a T), check whether you get 3 bar or 40psi absolute pressure. There is a slight chance that during your installing quick disconnect, the pump was pumping with the return line blocked, and the pressure regulator was over-pressured and damaged. This check requires you buy the gauge and a brass T pipe. But if you exhaust all measures and still think EFI might be the reason, this needs to be checked.

4) Pull out the spark plugs, and use spare plugs or even bad plugs just to seal the holes, unconnected. Crank the engine, check whether the connected plugs generating sparks or not? If not, either plugs are bad, or ECU command somehow is not reaching the plug. check wires.

@Lolibator,
You mentioned CDI, I wan to make sure the stock CDI is removed, and ignition coils are connected to ECU directly.

4) Pull out the spare plugs, for sealing, you should smell some gas there. Otherwise, somehow the fuel is not injected. check fuel injector wires.

These are just for double checks. I think the wires should be fine, since you guys check it many times.

Again, air, fuel , spark, are the primary 3, if you have them in the combustion chamber, and timing is correct, the engine should start, at least try to fire.

@Lolibator,
Where is the new data?

I guess we need to go buy a fuel pressure gauge. I mentioned CDI just thinking I still had it. If it is removed by the installation of the EFI kit, then it's most likely not there. The plugs are sparking. We tested that with two different sets of plugs.

If the quick disconnects are disconnected, how would it spray anything?

When we pull the plugs out, we can smell gas in the cylinders.

Lastly, what EFI stuff would need to be removed from the bike to convert back to a carb system?

The new data is on @138's computer. I can remote into it later and get an email set to you with that data. We did a TDC valve adjustment, logged the data, then checked compression, which was very low, but equal in both cylinders.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by 138

2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders:
- We grounded the plugs and got a nice constant blue spark on both cylinders.

what did you use to ground the plugs?

the block?