At my wits end.....bike will not start

[bob706]

08 with around 30k miles. Did a valve shim job using Vex's thread on the subject as a guide. Bike started to my surprise albeit not running really super-duper but it did run. Long story short, I went for a ride days later and it made it 1/4 mile before it died. Have since put a clean carb from an 09 on the bike and still nothing. It's getting spark and puffs of smoke come out the pipe. Is there something I may be missing? Next step for me would be taking the valve cover off and rechecking everything. Any ideas?

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by bob706

08 with around 30k miles. Did a valve shim job using Vex's thread on the subject as a guide. Bike started to my surprise albeit not running really super-duper but it did run. Long story short, I went for a ride days later and it made it 1/4 mile before it died. Have since put a clean carb from an 09 on the bike and still nothing. It's getting spark and puffs of smoke come out the pipe. Is there something I may be missing? Next step for me would be taking the valve cover off and rechecking everything. Any ideas?

Did it run well before you did the valves?
Check all your hoses. Make sure they are hooked up correctly and snugly.

[VaFish]

If the bike ran well before you worked on it, but then did not run well after you worked on it, chances are it was something you did to it.

Go back over what you did and make sure you put everything back together properly.

[bob706]

Bike ran before and after shimming the valve. I'm fairly certain my original carb had clogged idle jets if not more. The newer carb is a result of the original, um, breaking lets say. I made sure timing marks matched when I put it all back together. It just shows no signs of firing up. Fuel is in the carbs, spark is at the plugs, very little smoke come out the pipe while turning over, no blown fuses. Only thing I can think of is the timing jumped? No loud noises while turning over. All hoses snug and where they're supposed to be.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Try to clean the carbs really really good, and try to start it, if it doesn't, let it sit over night, and try to start it again in the morning, if it doesn't, try starting fluid. I want to make sure its not a fueling problem (because I think its a fueling problem).

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by bob706

08 with around 30k miles. Did a valve shim job using Vex's thread on the subject as a guide. Bike started to my surprise albeit not running really super-duper but it did run. Long story short, I went for a ride days later and it made it 1/4 mile before it died. Have since put a clean carb from an 09 on the bike and still nothing. It's getting spark and puffs of smoke come out the pipe. Is there something I may be missing? Next step for me would be taking the valve cover off and rechecking everything. Any ideas?

Because it ran for a while, and it didn't change with a different carb, I'm thinking it may be fuel related.

I would drain the tank and refill with fresh 87 just to be sure.

What do the plugs look like?

Is it backfiring into the airbox or popping out the exhaust?

I would also check the battery voltage. It should be 12.7 or more if it's fully charged. An almost-dead battery can create odd running problems.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bob706

08 with around 30k miles. Did a valve shim job using Vex's thread on the subject as a guide. Bike started to my surprise albeit not running really super-duper but it did run. Long story short, I went for a ride days later and it made it 1/4 mile before it died. Have since put a clean carb from an 09 on the bike and still nothing. It's getting spark and puffs of smoke come out the pipe. Is there something I may be missing? Next step for me would be taking the valve cover off and rechecking everything. Any ideas?

So you started it once after the valve job and then it sat? Then you went for a longer ride and it died?

You said it ran but not well....did you actually ride it at all right after the valve adjust or just start it to check things out?

[bob706]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

So you started it once after the valve job and then it sat? Then you went for a longer ride and it died?

You said it ran but not well....did you actually ride it at all right after the valve adjust or just start it to check things out?

Bike ran after valve job. Not good because I suspect now the idle jets were very clogged. Spent the next while chasing that issue. Had rode around the block a few times then the last ride she quit. A buddy of mine recommended changing spark plugs due to "ngk's fouling easily and crapping out". Worth a shot. Gonna do a compression test first though. Will post result tomorrow.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bob706

Bike ran after valve job. Not good because I suspect now the idle jets were very clogged. Spent the next while chasing that issue. Had rode around the block a few times then the last ride she quit. A buddy of mine recommended changing spark plugs due to "ngk's fouling easily and crapping out". Worth a shot. Gonna do a compression test first though. Will post result tomorrow.

Your "buddy" is....incorrect. NGK's do not foul easily nor crap out. I've never had one fail other than just plain old worn out.

Given that you've changed carbs....I assume you've checked the bowls for fuel? Are the spark plugs wet with fuel? If it won't start, and you have dry plugs, it's one of three things: Valves, lack of compression, or dry carbs. Given you have new carbs.....

If bowls have fuel, you need to go back to the last thing you touched. Which is the top end and everything between that and the last part you put on, the seat. Double check all your work.

Did you disconnect the coils?
Did you hook those wires back up correctly?
Did you run all the vacuum hoses correctly?
All the vent hoses correctly?

If the answer to all of those is yes, you need to double check your valve work again. Occam's razor and KISS are the rules I live by.

Smoke out the exhaust.....what color? Shouldn't have any smoke. Does it smell like fuel? Oil? No smell, water perhaps? Antifreeze?

[bob706]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Your "buddy" is....incorrect. NGK's do not foul easily nor crap out. I've never had one fail other than just plain old worn out.

Given that you've changed carbs....I assume you've checked the bowls for fuel? Are the spark plugs wet with fuel? If it won't start, and you have dry plugs, it's one of three things: Valves, lack of compression, or dry carbs. Given you have new carbs.....

If bowls have fuel, you need to go back to the last thing you touched. Which is the top end and everything between that and the last part you put on, the seat. Double check all your work.

Did you disconnect the coils?
Did you hook those wires back up correctly?
Did you run all the vacuum hoses correctly?
All the vent hoses correctly?

If the answer to all of those is yes, you need to double check your valve work again. Occam's razor and KISS are the rules I live by.

Smoke out the exhaust.....what color? Shouldn't have any smoke. Does it smell like fuel? Oil? No smell, water perhaps? Antifreeze?

Spark plug swap is a cheap avenue to explore, I'm with you about ngk's though. Everything is installed properly. I have quadruple checked everything. When I pulled the plugs this afternoon they were wet. The "smoke" is very faint and smells of fuel. Compression test and plug swap will narrow it down. It's just that the bike ran after the valve job and flat out will not fire that has me stumped. If I have to back into the top end I have no choice. Btw, from the time it started till it stopped there was no indication that the timing got thrown off or a valve exploded.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bob706

Spark plug swap is a cheap avenue to explore, I'm with you about ngk's though. Everything is installed properly. I have quadruple checked everything. When I pulled the plugs this afternoon they were wet. The "smoke" is very faint and smells of fuel. Compression test and plug swap will narrow it down. It's just that the bike ran after the valve job and flat out will not fire that has me stumped. If I have to back into the top end I have no choice. Btw, from the time it started till it stopped there was no indication that the timing got thrown off or a valve exploded.

But.....did you ride it after the valve job or just start it up and rev it a few times?

Did you replace a single carb or both in a pair (you keep saying carb, as in singular)?

Did you check the jets or needle position or A/F screw of the carb/carbs you bolted on the bike?

Wet plugs means either too much fuel, low compression, or weak/out of time spark.

[bob706]

But.....did you ride it after the valve job or just start it up and rev it a few times?
Wasn't really rideable so to speak. It would not idle very well but it did get around the block.



Did you replace a single carb or both in a pair (you keep saying carb, as in singular)?
Both. I'm spoiled with one carb on my road king. A "new" pair was installed.


Did you check the jets or needle position or A/F screw of the carb/carbs you bolted on the bike?
Yes. The carbs were clean. Doesn't mean much at this point though. Everything is to spec. Even bench synched them.



Wet plugs means either too much fuel, low compression, or weak/out of time spark.[/QUOTE]
after looking into it more I'm betting on low to no compression. Even if slightly out of time it would show some signs of wanting to start? I know I lined my timing marks up. If the chain jumped a tooth or three I didn't hear it. Maybe I bought two bum ngk's lol.

[jkv45]

Well...I tried...

[bob706]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Because it ran for a while, and it didn't change with a different carb, I'm thinking it may be fuel related.

I would drain the tank and refill with fresh 87 just to be sure.

What do the plugs look like?

Is it backfiring into the airbox or popping out the exhaust?

I would also check the battery voltage. It should be 12.7 or more if it's fully charged. An almost-dead battery can create odd running problems.

Has fresh fuel. Plugs when pulled were wet and were brand new. No backfiring or popping. Battery is relatively new and been on a tender

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by bob706

Has fresh fuel. Plugs when pulled were wet and were brand new. No backfiring or popping. Battery is relatively new and been on a tender

You're sure about the fuel?

Give it a quick shot of Starter Fluid as you are cranking and see what it does.

Are you using choke? Try backing it off, and if that doesn't do anything take it off completely and crank at WOT to see what it does. Wet plugs confirm it's getting fuel.

I'd confirm the voltage before calling the battery good.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bob706

But.....did you ride it after the valve job or just start it up and rev it a few times?
Wasn't really rideable so to speak. It would not idle very well but it did get around the block.



Did you replace a single carb or both in a pair (you keep saying carb, as in singular)?
Both. I'm spoiled with one carb on my road king. A "new" pair was installed.


Did you check the jets or needle position or A/F screw of the carb/carbs you bolted on the bike?
Yes. The carbs were clean. Doesn't mean much at this point though. Everything is to spec. Even bench synched them.



Wet plugs means either too much fuel, low compression, or weak/out of time spark.
after looking into it more I'm betting on low to no compression. Even if slightly out of time it would show some signs of wanting to start? I know I lined my timing marks up. If the chain jumped a tooth or three I didn't hear it. Maybe I bought two bum ngk's lol.

Ok. So the problem persists with "new clean carbs".

This means go back to the last thing you touched, no matter how sure you are that you did it right, especially since it ran like crap after you did the work and it won't start now.

The most simple answer is often the correct answer.

You have just eliminated pretty much every other possibility for a point of failure by my series of questions.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by jkv45

You're sure about the fuel?

Give it a quick shot of Starter Fluid as you are cranking and see what it does.

Are you using choke? Try backing it off, and if that doesn't do anything take it off completely and crank at WOT to see what it does. Wet plugs confirm it's getting fuel.

I'd confirm the voltage before call the battery good.

I'll throw a meter on the battery to confirm its charged.
Same result with or without choke. It doesn't fire up.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Ok. So the problem persists with "new clean carbs".

This means go back to the last thing you touched, no matter how sure you are that you did it right, especially since it ran like crap after you did the work and it won't start now.

The most simple answer is often the correct answer.

You have just eliminated pretty much every other possibility for a point of failure by my series of questions.

Exactly this, it happens all the time here and on other forms, people think their carbs are clean, because they just cleaned them, however the reality is that they are in fact not clean.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Your "buddy" is....incorrect. NGK's do not foul easily nor crap out. I've never had one fail other than just plain old worn out.

I know I'm comparing apples to oranges, but I ride a lot of MX, I've had a lot of different bikes, worked on a lot of friends bikes, etc, etc. Most my knowledge of motors is in two stroke MX bikes.
People who run NGK plugs on their MX bikes end up changing the plugs all the time because they go bad. My friends faul NGKs once every couple rides. On a bike that's running rich, has a rich oil mixtures and your not riding it hard, a NGK will faul before it finishes one lap. Whenever given the opportunity I swade people to use Denso plugs, I run W24ESR-U in all my MX bikes, and I have never fauled one. (I change a sparkplug in a MX bike every top end if at all). I put them in my friends bikes after rebuilding them, I give them out at tracks when people faul their ngks, and in all my experience, I have only ever seen one get fauled, and the kid was fauling 2 step hotter ngks every couple laps while this denso made it a couple motos before it fauled, and with the help of a torch, it made it a couple more motos.

TLDR: I've seen a lot of NGK's faul is areas where Denso's thrived.