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Old April 6th, 2022, 10:04 PM   #1
Bob KellyIII
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Motorcycles and ABS brakes ?

My New RX4 has ABS brakes and so far I've not tried to lock up the tires... so I figured I probably should try it just to see what it does.... glad I did !
i pressed on the rear brake real hard coming up to a stop sign on a back road with no traffic... it went Rrrt for a split second then released and did NOT re apply the braking force in other words it worked once and did not repeat itself !
.....which cannot be right ! i only did that for a 10' section then grabbed the front brake to actually stop me... each time I tried the rear brake to the sliding point it released and that was it...... the brake stopped functioning....
i let up and then it worked again till the sliding point then it quit trying to slow down the bike at all...... that's more dangerous than the wheel sliding ! WTF
.....
I thought it was supposed to slide let the wheel turn a bit and then slide again and let the wheel turn and slide again and so on till your stopped....
that's what cars do.... but this thing doesn't do that it just stops you from sliding the rear wheel by releasing the hydraulic pressure and then your free wheeling..... which is absolutely the stupidest thing I have ever seen.
it assures you will hit that idiot that stopped in front of you
.....
I know some of you guys have ABS on your bikes, if you do does your ABS system work like that ? I am wondering if there is an adjustment that needs to be made to make it work properly or not... I asked CSC about it but I haven't got a response yet.
maybe it has to roll alot further than I let it....
as the rear tire only turned about 3/4 a revolution before I let up and hit the brake again....and got the same Rrrt and it was no brake again....
.....
Surely they wouldn't put on a system that disables your brakes when you need them Right ? but it sure looks that way to me !
....
Comments welcome PLEASE !!!
....
Bob........
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Old April 6th, 2022, 10:16 PM   #2
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Have had a number of bikes with ABS (most of them BMW's). The early ones (pre-2000) were a bit crude, and the cycling was relatively slow and noticeable. But the later generations are quite quick, and work exactly as you'd hope. You can squeeze hard on the lever and the pedal, and if the wheel is being slowed quicker than traction can handle, it will modulate the braking pressure all the way down to a stop.

But your test isn't necessarily a great one. If you just hammer the rear brake without any front braking - it's always going to be slow to stop, and it's also likely to just leave the wheel locked once the bike itself is slow enough. If the speed sensor on the bike is tied to the transmission or the rear wheel, once that wheel is locked, the bike may have no idea how fast it's going anyway - so it is eventually just going to think it's stopped. I'm pretty confident that your rear wheel was locked and the bike was just sliding along - rather than the rear wheel was spinning and the brakes were completely off.

You need to use the brakes how they are designed, and how you should brake in general. Hit the front brakes and the rear brakes together. Use much more pressure on the front brakes. If you actually use enough to lock them up on dry ground, they should (and likely will) release. But with modern tires on clean pavement, the bike will likely have more than enough braking power to lift the rear of the bike up in the air, well before the front tire slips. In fact - that's one of the scary parts of the early integrated ABS brakes on bikes. If you're going all out, and hit the front hard enough to lift the rear, some bikes were programmed to let some of the front brake off to settle the rear of the bike back down again. Likely that's the safe choice - but it was frightening as hell if you're trying to slow quickly before some type of emergency, and the bike feels like it stops braking for a few milliseconds. More recent bikes have processing power fast enough that it can modulate the braking well before the rear wheel is lifted, if it's programmed to do so.

All of this is another reason that rear ABS is sometimes switchable for dual-sport / off-road bikes, as in some riding situations it is preferable to be able to fully lock the rear wheel and slide it around a little, rather than automatic modulation. The real advantage for streetbikes with ABS is in sketchy conditions. Even if it is wet and slippery out, brake as hard as you need to - using both brakes - and the bike will figure out the fastest way to slow you down, in virtually all cases faster than any human would be able to detect and modulate.
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Old April 7th, 2022, 12:42 AM   #3
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Thanks Alex ! that is how I thought it should work....
your right I did not use the front brake at all because I wanted it to slide a long way if it wanted to..... normally I apply a small amount of front brake when I stop enough to get the forks to compress a bit
so Yah I suppose my test was borked from the get go ! I could hear the rear wheel chirp though as it skid for just a short amount of time then it didn't
which meant it was turning.... it is very possible that both brakes need to be applied to make it function properly though ! they are all hooked together as a unit by looking at the hydraulic lines !
I'll do the same test again but this time use both brakes but apply more back brake to see if it modulates like it should.....
problem is locking up the bike on the pavement makes me nervous as hell !
i should be able to do the same on a dirt road without much speed and brake loose easier....
.....
what I did discover today was the way I did it was a recipe for disaster !
i used only the rear brake and it's possible that using it like that leaves you with no stopping power at all.... you have to use both brakes not just one.
and I'll admit I don't always do that.....especially on dirt roads !
I may well NEED to have a disable switch for when I ride on dirt roads ! or I'll have no brakes at all.... hummmm
I've already got the mechanic's notes on how to hook up a disable switch.
but I want to know exactly what I'm doing before I dive into that ! LOL
.....
Brakes are like condoms "better to have them and not need then than Need them and not have them !"
..
LOL

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Old April 7th, 2022, 07:36 AM   #4
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Seems like rear ABS on a bike that sees gravel is a bad idea. I agree that disabling the system seems best. My experience with my old (2004) BMW coincides with Alex's: they were crude systems at best. While I'm sure newer ABS is far superior and capable of safely stopping a bike quicker than my brain and appendages, I prefer to handle that stuff myself. Bikes are risky and I accept that. My cars get ABS, my bikes don't. I know that makes me sound but I like simple two-wheeled machines.
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Old April 7th, 2022, 09:16 AM   #5
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I agree Drew !
although I did get a "Modern" machine simply because SOME Technology is a good thing ....but that doesn't mean ALL technology is good, you have to choose what works better for you and what doesn't !
.... and I have to agree with Alex that my test was totally unfair for the bike
but I have to wonder about all the other bike riders like me that grew up riding motorcycles and learned the hard way never to touch that front brake ,,,,their going to get on that bike and ride it like normal and not touch the front brake and in so doing they will do a panic stop with the back brake only and as soon as the rear wheel starts to skid they will be no longer slowing down and hit what ever they were trying to avoid that is a bad situation and there was no warnings at all that that would happen. i only found out because I tested it.
I have been learning to use the front brake sense I have been riding again after my long drought of not riding for 2~3 years ....previous to that I rarely used the front brake at all.... but after seeing so many videos on trail braking
I have begun to use the front brake quite a bit..... but I still forget
which makes me think it may well be safer for me to disable the ABS entirely
just because I ride like an "Old Fart" LOL......
I will re test that ABS on my RX4 for sure.... and post the results here
as this information may well help some "old fart" stay alive !
....
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Old April 7th, 2022, 10:00 AM   #6
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I've heard that "no front brake" stuff before... I get it in the dirt but on the street that's suicide. I can endo my bikes without skidding. Front brakes are key.
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Old April 7th, 2022, 11:25 AM   #7
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For a bike that mainly sees sunny days and pleasure rides - I have no issue with non-ABS bikes, and most of the bikes in our garage fit that bill. But for a long-distance or commuting bike, which is likely to be used at some point in iffy/wet conditions by choice or not - ABS has become a requirement. Stopping the bike quickly in wet conditions on the street is always going to have some tension, and riders need to stay well below the line of maximum braking to keep from losing the front end and tipping over. It's instinctual - and it greatly increases stopping distance. Not a few percent - it can double or more. The more slippery, the more the delta becomes. With an ABS bike - if there's something in your path that you've chosen to brake for, you can easily and confidently brake exactly as hard as possible, with a safety net to keep the wheels turning along the way. Hopefully it happens almost never. But if it does, it doesn't take that happening more than once or twice, before our brains are quickly retrained to "I get it now". Going forward - if it's a dirtbike or a trackbike - I might forego it. But I can't see myself buying another streetbike without it.
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Old April 7th, 2022, 11:36 AM   #8
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Don't know if your ABS is switchable. On the Versys-X 300 its not, but there is a tweak to disable it.

On the X300 Start bike, the ABS light stays on until you ride a few yards. When light goes out meaning the ABS is functioning normally. Stop the bike, but leave engine running. Put bike on centre stand. Now put in 1st gear & rev it to around 7000rpm for a few seconds until the ABS light comes on. The ABS is now error disabled on both wheels. Take out of gear, hop on & ride. When the ignition is turned off/on the ABS will revert to self check on set off & work normally.

Yours may do the same.

YMMV
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Old April 7th, 2022, 11:50 AM   #9
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You had to have lived it to appreciate the reasoning I guess....
after having dozens of front end slide outs on the dirt and face plants I found that leaving that front brake alone was the best option on dirt or street
I almost had a front end slide out on my 305 many decades ago when riding in heavy rain.... i was using both brakes because I came into the corner way too fast and the front went to the lee ward side about one foot and then stuck
and man that definitely woke me up from then on I've been leary of using the front brake !
but I have always known that a bike can stop 2 times faster than a car if both brakes are used and are used properly so I've kept with the practice of using the front brake on occasion....
but having watched the videos on trail braking I was convinced that I should be using more front brake than I normally do ...so I've been doing that
especially with the ninja as it helps in the corners alot when I squeeze that front brake enough to get the front forks to compress a bit the bike corners like a dream usually I don't even touch the back brake as I am using engine compression as the brake but the RX4 is a cruiser of sorts a get on and enjoy the ride bike ...and it fits that roll great.... I have no doubt it can take me anywhere i want to go.... not so for the Ninja.... I could go anywhere I want to go on the triumph as well but dirt is not as good as the street but it will do it.....
but when you add the ABS delima to the Mix that RX4 becomes a bike I am getting conflicting signals from I can ride it like the triumph and not use the front brake at all..... but if I panic stop with the RX4 I'm going to hit what ever it is unless I USE both brakes that I can assure you ! because once that
rear wheel skids there is no brakes on the rear till you let up and hit it again
and I did not miss quote that , that is exactly what happened the tire was NOT locked up the brakes just quit.... well that actually SUX big time !!!!
if I forget to use both brakes it could be as good as hitting something
if the rear wheel looses traction for a split second.... to me that is asking to get hurt.... when a Deer hops out in front of you at 60mph my instincts are to hit both brakes and look for a clear path through them ( because there is always more than one!)
... there is an easy way to disconnect the ABS..... just pull the fuze ! it won't help you if there's no power to it ! LOL
but I think that would kill both front and back wheel and the front is not the problem.... at least I haven't tried to slide the front yet anyway LOL
... it's a bit ironic if you think about it in an effort to make motorcycles safer they introduced a flaw into the system that makes the stopping even more dangerous than it was before ... and I suppose their argument would be well, use it as it was intended !.....
but right now I have a bike that if I skid the rear wheel the rear brake goes away...... what kind of Logic thinks that is better ? even if it does stop faster when used properly with both brakes,... why didn't they link both brakes then ?????
..... so if I disable the rear ABS is the front going to work ? I doubt it ,I expect it will react just like the rear without the front... which means the brake system is so broken that it can't be trusted.... UNLESS you use both brakes !
I guess I learn how to ride correctly this time eh ? LOL
......
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Old April 7th, 2022, 07:17 PM   #10
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There's not much to add. If you want to brake quickly and safely, brake properly. On the street - that's progressively adding significantly more pressure on the front, and including some rear. Any other method is going to take longer to slow the bike and put you in danger more quickly. With an ABS bike - you're able to hammer the front even harder than you would otherwise, as the penalty for doing so is almost nothing as the brake cycles close to that friction limit. And in slippery conditions - it's a night and day difference.
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Old April 8th, 2022, 06:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
You had to have lived it to appreciate the reasoning I guess....
having dozens of front end slide outs on the dirt and face plants I found that leaving that front brake alone was the best option on dirt or street
I almost had a front end slide out on my 305 many decades ago when riding in heavy rain.... i was using both brakes because I came into the corner way too fast and the front went to the lee ward side about one foot and then stuck
and man that definitely woke me up from then on I've been leary of using the front brake !
I suppose that's one solution. What if Michael Jordan gave up after missing only dozen baskets when he started? Or Abraham Lincoln after losing only dozen elections? He actually faced constant defeats and setbacks his entire life… and never gave up. Don't worry that you crashed, it’s about getting up and mastering the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
but I have always known that a bike can stop 2 times faster than a car if both brakes are used and are used properly so I've kept with the practice of using the front brake on occasion....
Maybe 1950s car... Depends upon specific car and bike you compare. Modern ordinary VW Golf with ABS can actually out-brake Ferrari F-40 supercar of couple decades ago. And beat most bikes too. >

Doesn't matter how fast cars can brake anyway. What really matters is how fast you can stop when car pulls out of driveway or turns left in front of you. These represents most of motorcycle crashes on roads. And in vast majority of these cases, a single skidmark is shown sliding right into crash. IF rider had used mostly front-brake and less rear-brake, they would’ve been able to stop in time before collision.

Here’s comparative study of front/rear/both braking with and without ABS: https://msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc20...ance-Paper.pdf

Summary of biggest heaviest bike 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 from 80mph:

rear-only: 160.28m w/ABS=152.76m
front-only: 74.41m w/ABS=84.14m
both: 67.46m w/ABS=79.21m

You can see that rear-only stops bike only 40% as good as both and require 2.5x as much distance. That’s easily difference between going through car that just pulled out in front of you vs. stopping before collision.

Where ABS really comes in handy are emergency situations like these. You don’t have time to properly modulate front-brakes at limit and steer around obstacles... in the rain. Honda’s come up with great solution, linked brakes where rear pedal activates both front and rear brakes simultaneously.

2002 Honda VFR800 from 80mph:

rear-only: 111.46m w/abs=85.59m
front-only: 82.12m w/abs=77.86m
both: 71.84m w/abs=70.67m

Notice that rear-only braking doesn’t require double distance like on other bikes due to linked braking system. Along with ABS, it gets maximum braking power under all conditions. The linked-brake & ABS system will vary front vs. rear balance depending upon deceleration-rate with more and more pressure going to front as braking forces increase. Similar to proportioning valve in autos. So it can modulate both front & rear brakes at limit of adhesion better than any human. Having experienced this system in rain when grabbing both brakes coming around corner and find deer in road, I'd always get ABS on bikes whenever possible, even if it's not as good as on VFR.



Link to original page on YouTube.

To get maximum performance out of brakes, you want to do this:


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Old April 8th, 2022, 08:27 PM   #12
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OK who pissed you off Danno ? ME ?
the information you told me was totally wrong... the ABS system on the RX4 is totally independent ...meaning the rear works without the front and it is not dependant on it..... which is good to know ! and here I thought you were never wrong LOL..... But ...no biggy at all.
No doubt good braking procedure should be practiced all the time !
but I simply don't do that ..... i pick a time and place to practice braking
the rest of the time I just ride.... I do use my front brake.... it's not like I don't!
i just don't always use it.... on the Ninja I have been practicing trail braking
and that has indeed improved the cornering of the bike ...and I thought it couldn't get any better than that little bike, but it can get better !
....
the Guy at CSC called me today in response to my email and he and I had a long talk about the ABS system on the RX4
and it sounds like it's working as it was designed..... the problem is that when it modulates it doesn't modulate with as much pressure as you put into
getting it to brake loose..... by design.
Now to me I would think that the modulation should be very close to the same pressure not less but that is how they made it....
I wrote him another email a bit ago asking if there was any way to adjust that pressure once modulation begins like maybe add a washer under the spring or adjust a valve or something.... but I am willing to bet he doesn't know of any mods to the ABS on the RX4 ....
.....
Sorry if I pissed you off Danno... i didn't mean to, but be that as it may...
you know me I am certainly not perfect, and I apologize !
.....
Bob.......
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Old April 8th, 2022, 08:50 PM   #13
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Eh? sorry if I sound pissed off, not my intention all!

I do worry that you're gonna get yourself killed on that bike. Horrible suspension, ineffective ABS. What's next???

I don't think I said anything incorrect about RX-4 since I really don't know much about it.

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Old April 8th, 2022, 09:55 PM   #14
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well the way I took it ...a few days ago was that you said the ABS system needs both brakes being used at the same time to work properly... maybe I misunderstood i dunno.... but on the RX4 the front and rear wheels are independent of each other.... meaning I can use the rear brake alone and the ABS system will work on it as intended...... the problem is as INTENDED
...what I found out today is that the ABS when triggered by loosing traction,
will reduce the pressure to the brake to alow it to continue to spin ( that I already knew) but it re applies that pressure at a reduced amount ....
so your not going to get a Rrrrt, Rrrrt, Rrrrt, till you stop it just reduces the rear brake to stop that sliding completely.... ( i thought that is what I should get is a Rrrrt, Rrrrt, Rrrrt.... of the rear wheel sliding then alowed to roll ,then sliding again... but that is not how it's designed it reduces the pressure on the calipers so much that it feels like there is no brakes at all being applied !
it will stop you..... but I am betting I could easily stop faster then the ABS system on this bike, because of the reduced pressure .
I would have to disable it to tell though...
......
I think I've given the wrong impression about my braking on a bike....
I do use the front brake alot.... when I want that extra stopping power, but most of the time I don't need it.....
but when that car pulls out infront of me have no fear I will be on that front brake pronto ! I don't have that big of an adversion to using the front brake ! and with ABS I can MASH it with no fear of doing a front wheel lock up....it won't allow that...!
.....
years ago on my 1100cc Honda Shadow I was coming back home in Shingletown CA. ( near Mt.Lassen ) and was booking it, traffic was light and
there was no reason not to...... I was doing somewhere around 70mph in the twisties with a big wide road and plunty of room.... so I was enjoying the evening ride....
I came around a turn and there were at least 12 deer in the road covering both lanes I grabbed both brakes and did my best to slow down some but it was obvious i was going through that heard so I picked the most likely opening and threaded the needle in the middle of that group I saw a buck jump over me...yes I ducked but I made it through without touching a one I looked im my rear view mirror so see them scattering in all directions....
and then remembered to breathe....
I almost wet my pants Man that was close ! but my instincts are to use that front brake.... some old codgers won't touch that front brake but I certainly will ! LOL....
later ....my dinner is done !
....Bob....
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Old April 8th, 2022, 10:04 PM   #15
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nope, my very 1st post on ABS.

heheh, awesome manuveurs!!! Would be amazing video riding through herd of deer!
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Old April 9th, 2022, 12:33 PM   #16
Bob KellyIII
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Lets just say it was extreamily Memerable ! I was shaking for 5 miles afterword and i was still 15 miles from home !
Well, some one said that both brakes had to be used for the ABS to funtion properly and I just assumed it was you ...Sorry ! LOL
.... but sense the ABS system ...at least on MY BIKE...is indipendant either brake can be used alone and it still funtions as it should.... problem is it is set up way too soft.... once the ABS kicks in you don't have very much stopping power at all..... so yah You will be using both brakes weather you want to or not just to stop... it's a heavy bike at 450lbs and it carries it's weight well and doesn't like to stop easily ... but the brakes are good it will stop you in a short distance for sure .....
I'ed just like it if the ABS was set up quite a bit tighter on the rear brake
....

....I've been de railed on repairing the clothes line the plastic brackets have gone away on the unbrella like structure and I've had to resort to making the plastic brackets from steel bar flat stock... 1/8"x1.5"x 48" I got one made and am welding up the last one now..... but I need a bunch of 1/4x20x 1.25" bolts and nuts to complete it...so it looks like I may get to rise today to go get the bolts LOL ......
....
it turned cold again here darn it !
....
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Old April 9th, 2022, 12:56 PM   #17
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I certainly miss CA weather! It would've started to warm up at tracks by now, 70s or so. Was at track last weekend and it's already mid-80s! They actually take summers off here due to heat, wimps!!! And cancel trackdays due to rain, WTF!!!
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Old April 12th, 2022, 12:21 PM   #18
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The old ABS systems used to be more obvious about their pumping of the brake; the new ones don't tell you so much when they're doing their thing. Like you say, it would be Rrrrt Rrrrt Rrrrt and now it's a lot quieter about it.

I still see people advising new riders to "never" touch the front brake. My thought is if it was actually dangerous to use the front, it wouldn't *have* one. You get most of your braking ability from the front brake when the bike rocks forward. I often stop using only the front, not touching the rear at all.
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Old April 12th, 2022, 02:32 PM   #19
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on any bike the front brake can get you seriously hurt. BUT your right that is where most of the stopping power is found... you as a rider have to know when it is safe to use the front brake hard.... sand or dirt on the pavement in a corner is not the place to use the front brake ...we know that from experience but new riders don't know that...but they will learn very fast that that front brake can and will make you crash.
going down from the use of the front brake on a dirt road is alot worse than having the ass pass you on a dirt road...because of using the rear brake
the results of both are bad.... you dumped it ! but going down with the front the bike throws you into the ground and there is not much you can do to prevent it. with the rear locked up and sliding all over the place back there chances are you have a good chance of keeping it under control till you stop
Not so with the front ..it locks up and slides left or right and your down in an instant with no time to react... it's super fast !
I use the front brake every time I get on the bike but I use it cautiously
it's a killer that needs to be respected... the rear brake can mess you up too if you lock it up...I've seen the ass of my bike turn sideways many times when the ground was fairly level.... you never know what that back end is going to do if you lock up the wheel.... usually it's mild and pirty much stays in line but when you brake traction it can and frequently does do ANYTHING IT WANTS TO !
.....
ABS is SUPPOSED to prevent locking up both the front and rear wheels...
which is a good thing a sliding tire makes you loose control and you go down
... but the old style ABS systems where you could feel and hear the pulsations.... worked fantastically in that they could stop the bike faster than a seasoned rider could every time....
..with the new ABS systems I am doubting that they can still do that
in fact it felt like I could stop about 3 times faster with normal brakes when I tested My ABS.... but more testing is needed before I draw any conclusions
I may well disable the ABS if that's the case !
....
My RX4 has a really wide tire on the rear what has a big foot print and when I locked it up it took alot of force to do that and I was stopping incredibly fast
then it quit... it's like WTF? i still don't understand that
the ABS should keep it on the verge of sliding not let up so much you fall back onto the seat....
..... but like I said more testing is in order....
....
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Old April 13th, 2022, 05:43 AM   #20
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... but the old style ABS systems where you could feel and hear the pulsations.... worked fantastically in that they could stop the bike faster than a seasoned rider could every time....
..with the new ABS systems I am doubting that they can still do that
Bob - your beliefs about old-gen and new-gen ABS are interesting, but they don't come across as particularly well-informed. Modern ABS on a number of bikes is even incorporating lean angle to more accurately modulate the brakes if the bike is turning at the time. It gets better every year, and has done so for decades at this point. If something is truly broken on your CSC - take it up with them and figure out whether they have worked out the bugs enough to sell it safely and broadly to the US market. If there really is something wrong with it, the avenue to deal with it is NHTSA to get them tested and recalled as a group. But I also wouldn't extrapolate everything you're seeing on one of the cheapest Chinese-branded bikes available, to what is generally on offer from any major motorcycle brand.
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Old April 13th, 2022, 07:30 AM   #21
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Good point Alex ! I am dated in my info .... that's a given LOL
....it's up to the testing now to find out if the ABS is working correctly or is broken....
I'll contact CSC with the results I've found and they can take it from there
....
I want my bike to stop fast, and with the ABS system it should stop faster than humanly possible..... if I can stop faster with the fuzes pulled to the ABS than with them in I will be Pissed to say the least. budget bike or not ! that's unsafe!
.....
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Old April 13th, 2022, 08:23 AM   #22
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Generally, good racers can brake faster than ABS under dry ideal consitions. That's why they always disable it for track use. Where ABS really shines is emergency situations with bad grip such as cornering and braking at limit in rain or over slick roads.
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Old April 13th, 2022, 04:13 PM   #23
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I agree - on dry, predictable pavement with warmed up tires in good condition, like most racetrack situations - a rider can use pretty much all the front braking that a motorcycle can handle. Too much and the bike becomes unsteady as the front dives and rear lifts - well before any traction limit is reached between the tires and the pavement. They are also hitting braking points within a surprisingly small and predictable location every trip around the circuit. That means the normal process of "see something - decide to brake - start to brake - bring brake pressure up to maximum" for street riding, is more like "brake at this marker". ABS is much more helpful in the first sequence than the second.

Braking strategies that can be used with ABS in bikes (and cars) can eventually be about more than just keeping the tire from losing traction. Turns out that in cars (and I bet in bikes, but what I've read was specifically for cars), so many accidents occur because drivers don't use enough brake pressure in an emergency stop. The car had plenty of capability to stop quicker, the tires had plenty of traction, but the driver still runs into what they were trying to avoid. So car manufacturers have put in things like "emergency brake assist", which tries to sense that, and actually give the braking performance that the driver appeared to want - judged by the velocity of how the brake pedal is applied - not only the ultimate pressure that the pedal is held down with. So in emergency stops, the vehicle actually does stop closer to its capabilities if possible.
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Old April 13th, 2022, 07:33 PM   #24
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that's interesting ! yah for the general public I can see where ABS is a good thing in most cases even if I can stop faster than the abs brakes I would be very reluctant to turn it off simply because I do not use that kind of braking very often..... there was one time however when a car pulled out in front of me and I was doing about 70mph on a back road ( way way too fast for that 45mph road but I loved it) anyway he pulled out without even looking I was watching him... and sure enough he pulled out and I burried both binders to the screaching point and let up slightly and I slowed down enough not to hit him... normially I would have just gone around him and gave him a good scare but there was oncoming traffic that time.... I've never personally had a bike want to stand on the front wheel... kind'a makes me think that bike is defective in the first place if it does that and not skid the front instead but that seems to be the way all bikes are made now ...I don't have a fear of my Triumph standing on it's front wheel at all it's the old design that is heavy and low with it's weight
but these sport bikes ( crotch rockets in picitular) all seem to do nose stands
and that is alarming to me...like guys...the weight is too high ! but they have been making most bikes like that sense the 1980's so it has become the norm and everyone expects it so it's not a problem but there was a time when that didn't happen..... of course those bikes of old did not stop near as fast either their skinny front tire couldn't put enough force into stopping to raise the rear wheel but we don't have that problem today
.... lol the front tire on my Ninja is nearly as wide as the rear tire on my 305 dream I put so many miles on in my younger years.... it's kind'a funny !
.... I've not tried to skid the front tire on the Ninja and I don't think I want to either..... as short as it is I do believe that the rear would come up !!!!
but I should know what that feels like, for sure....
....
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Old April 14th, 2022, 12:05 AM   #25
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Yeah, lots of physics involved with braking: weight transfer, COG, traction, etc. Look for "Physics of Racing" series of articles. While done for cars, braking equations are same for bikes.

Since bikes have shorter wheelbases and higher COG, they'll shift more weight to front-wheel than cars for same deceleration-G and will lift back wheel before you overcome traction limit of front tyre. Modern bikes are designed with tucked-in front wheel and engines pushed as far forward as possible. This puts more weight in front for braking, making sliding front tyre under braking almost impossible.

Older bikes from '80s and earlier had longer wheelbases and front wheel pushed way out in front. Makes front-tyre carry very little weight and have less traction. I had '88 RZ350 for many years; awesome engine, crappy frame and suspension. Front tyre was so far out in front with so little weigh, I could lock up front-tyre under braking with just 2-fingers! Boy that was scary bike to ride at limit!
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Old April 14th, 2022, 01:19 AM   #26
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yah wasn't that the RD350 that was a 2 stroke that would wheelie at the blip of the throttle ? those bikes were fun as all get out ! my Dad had one and I had the Kawasaki 350 2 stroke with rotary disk valves I finally got it to keep up with my Dads bike and wheelie at the blip of the throttle but it took some doing that bike was fun ! I loved wheeling away from a stop light ! LOL
but you ain't just a woofing about crummy suspension that ninja out there would eat that old bike alive both in suspension and handling.... that bike handled more like a refrigerator with handle bars than a motorcycle !
you had to force it to corner or do anything actually but it did get up and go !
that thing made me wish for my old 305 dream that's how bad it handled !
then about that time I got ahold of a Kawasaki w1 650cc twin and it handled better than anything I had ever ridden up to that time ,,,it wanted to corner !
but that little ninja out there puts it to shame ! LOL
those were fun times...but they were also very hard times looking back on it !
trying to feed my family on $3.25 and hour and keep a roof over their head too, was not easy... that was minimum wage back then and you were lucky to get that ! ....things have improved alot sense then in that regard but the cost of housing has gone through the roof too so I guess it all evens out,... it's not easy now either !
....later !
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Old April 14th, 2022, 07:32 AM   #27
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Heh, heh.. I remember started working when minimum-wage was 3.55. Thought I had struck gold-mine, way more than I was making with paper-route earlier. But then again, I didn't have to support family or put roof over their head.

yeah, all those numbers feds puts out are lies. Inflation has gone up way, way more over the decades than they claim. Cost of housing, food, utilities, medical-care, etc has doubled in last 10yrs. That puts actual inflation at 7.2% or more than double what they claim. How many people's wages have doubled in 10yrs?

It's not accidental, inflation is how global bankers make their money. Look at what happened to last President and senators who tried to take back control of our own money supplies...
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Old April 29th, 2022, 07:46 PM   #28
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OK I took the RX4 out today and found a short patch of gravel so I tested the ABS again
this time the results were completely different than last time...
I hit the rear brake only and noted my stopping speed at the time... hard enough to lock up the rear but of course it only stopped sliding for a split second and it did continue to slow down at the same rate !!!!! a few more tests like that confirmed the same results
it does not let up so much that it freewheels...that was ME letting up I'm almost positive !
..... the other thing I tested today was the ride without the saddle bags and as I expected it is alot Lighter and the center of mass up high is alot less than it was
that bike does indeed have a high center of mass and I guess that is because of the full gas tank of 5+gallons... which is quite high on the bike right now without the saddle bags on it it feels like the COG is about between the bottom of the gas tank and the cylinder head ....at a guess with the saddle bags on and the 30lbs of stuff I always carry with me it's almost certainly at the bottom of the gas tank..... that's pirty High !
.....
the ride..... the ride was disappointing at best ... it still rides like a truck but it is indeed a little softer not much just a little bit !..... it will still try to knock my teeth out on a few bumps on that road but it is a little better ! so I will try to find a spring for it again.
.....
it didn't run very good at first but soon cleared out and was it's pleasant self....
it felt like the choke was left on.... but obviously no choke with the fuel injection
...it's still running so lean at idle it misses every once in a while.... I have resigned myself to that is the way it's going to run...I don't like that but I can't do anything about it ! maybe a resistor after the air temp sensor or something, but nothing concrete as of yet.
......
so ABS works great, Ride sucks, and seat height is still a bit too tall for me
I can touch flat footed with both feet at a stop, but just barely...another inch lower would be perfect !
.....
at 70mph it is tacking at 5,500 RPM..... and feels a bit buzzy at that speed steeper final drive would really be nice on that bike !
.....
I went down to the lake here and there is no water, it has receded to way down there !
we are at end of summer low-ness at the beginning of summer...... not a good thing at all !!!!!
we hardly got any moisture this winter.... so it looks like the start of another drought !.....
.....
later !
Bob.........
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Old May 1st, 2022, 12:16 AM   #29
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OK ABS on the RX4..... what do I know about it NOW ?
.... it does work as they intended it to....
.... both wheels are linked together so the rear will activate the front brake if needed
.... the wheels are independant in the fact that you can use either without affecting the
other wheel up to the point of skidding at that point both wheels are affected.
.... the bike does indeed stop very fast by itself and I will be hard pressed to beat it on a
good day ! so I'm definitely not taking the ABS system OFF ! LOL
.... I think installing a ABS switch for the dirt would be a good thing as there are times
when you want to lock either wheel up and keep it locked up and the ABS system
prevents that... and that is not what I want. so a switch is in the works !
...........
This has definitely been a learning experience... Me jumping to conclusions and not knowing how they actually work definitely screws a person up ! For That I apologize to everyone here.... I should have had concrete evidence and not guess work, and more knowledge on how the system really works than "what I was told" years ago....
I've wanted ABS on a bike sense they first came out because I thought "that will put an END to front end wash-outs !" now that I own one I'm not so sure that is the case at all...... if your tearing around a corner and not using your brakes and hit pee-gravel or sand the ABS brakes are not going to help with that unless if you hit your brakes and that act causes it to brake traction then the ABS will kick in and intervene for you...
... most likely your going down anyway as the traction is not available for that speed.
the ABS can't help with stupidity ! LOL
but it can help with miss applied brake pressure in fact it excels at that !
hit the rear brake too hard and the rear wheel brakes traction it will then apply some braking force to the front wheel and keep you slowing down at the same rate you were slowing down before you broke traction..... THAT IS PIRTY DARN SLICK !!!!
but Old riders need to be aware of that fact so they don't defeet the ABS when braking
you need to put away your skills and just pound the brakes and let the bike stop itself
and that is not so easy to do sometimes !
....
My first test of the ABS system was a failure because I defeated the ABS System
I used my skills to keep the rear from braking loose and all braking went askew !
you have to brake like a idiot and then the system works great !
....
Bob....
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 01:37 PM   #30
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My CBR600RR had ABS and the rear was linked to the front. Applying rear brake activated the front brake. Question that was never answered was both front calipers or just one. Honda service dept told me that on another Honda model it was just one. BTW this was 2009 and the ABS weighed 23 lbs. My 2013 ZX6R doesn't have the fancy lean sensing ABS but is not linked, weighs 4 lbs, and I have never turned it off (which requires removing the ABS fuse) on the road or track. I believe the current R1 is linked. Not sure if you can turn it off.
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 02:05 PM   #31
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BS CBR600RR never had linked brakes. ABS monitors the difference in wheel rotation, so front & rear are both used as reference, but X cycles per second determines if ABS kicks in or not, based on speed & on newer systems by IMU output.
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 03:37 PM   #32
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BS CBR600RR never had linked brakes. ABS monitors the difference in wheel rotation, so front & rear are both used as reference, but X cycles per second determines if ABS kicks in or not, based on speed & on newer systems by IMU output.
Pretty sure CBR600RR had C-ABS...

https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...ure-indicator/
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufactu...iew-87864.html
https://ridermagazine.com/2009/04/28...abs-road-test/
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 07:30 PM   #33
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BS CBR600RR never had linked brakes. ABS monitors the difference in wheel rotation, so front & rear are both used as reference, but X cycles per second determines if ABS kicks in or not, based on speed & on newer systems by IMU output.
WRONG. but chill out brother. Also 2009 CBR600R didn’t have IMU mad probably still doesn’t. What do I know I only put 28K miles on it in 4 years and a few track days. And unlike my ZX the bleeding process was complicated involving cycling the system and using a jumper wire.
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 07:30 PM   #34
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Yup. And the rider magazine details it best.

https://powersports.honda.com/street...cbr600rr/build
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 11:32 PM   #35
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For a year or two in the early 2000's, some BMW's had linked brakes where if you stepped on the rear pedal, it would engage both the rear and some front brake. (If you used the front brake, it would engage some rear brake as well). It was widely panned, as hitting the rear pedal at low speeds for slow corners as some riders tend to do, evidently caused plenty of low speed drops when the front wheel was suddenly braked unexpectedly as well. The next generation kept linked brakes, but only front to rear (pulling the lever engaged the front and a bit of rear, pressing the pedal only engaged the rear). From that Rider Magazine article, it does sound like the Honda would engage the front when only the pedal was pressed, but only in extreme situations where the rear is already locked.
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Old June 3rd, 2022, 01:59 AM   #36
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from what I have been able to determine from my experience on the CSC RX4 with it's ABS brakes is that all braking is normal until the tire skids ...then the ABS kicks in and allows it to turn again when I tested the ABS system on a gravel road using only the rear brake
sliding the rear wheel applied braking to the front... and surprisingly enough my deceleration speed stayed the same as just before the rear wheel locked up (for a split second).
when I used the front wheel only, the rear wheel also engaged....
when I used both neither wheel would skid but for a fraction of a second, but boy does that thing stop fast !
I don't have any fear of the front washing out because the front wheel brake was applied because it keeps it turning...this was a large concern of mine but it does it automatically and faster than I ever could.
.... with the ABS system You can be assured that in a panic stop the wheels will not lock up....you can mash them both to the max and they will not lock up.
which is a bit disconcerting as when I press on the back brake I want that thing to stop
but the back of the bike won't be trying to pass the front either....
I need more miles on this bike before I can actually form an honest to god opinion ... but right now I do think it is better, I've only had one instance where it felt like there was no brakes at all and that was because of me I unconsciously let up off the brake and it did too, I think I continued to slow down quickly but by then I was gauging where to go if it didn't stop... lol ( i only used the rear brake that time)
sense then I have hit my brakes front and rear very hard and had no ill effects
at 20mph that darn bike will stop in 10 feet.... or at least it feels like it ! LOL
I've spent 90% of my riding life sliding the rear tire all over the place I know what it feels like and what to do if it's getting carried away ! and I did that without using the front brake too much.... you can play with the rear wheel all day long but you'd best not mess with that front wheel...... so when I got this little ninja 250R I started trying the trail braking thing and I was really surprised at how much that helps in cornering....
in most cases now I am using my front and back brakes both even when I'm just out riding the back roads...... even on the o'l Triumph....
but I do know that could get me into trouble without ABS..... been there done that too many times on dirt roads.....
.....
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Old June 3rd, 2022, 06:08 AM   #37
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For a year or two in the early 2000's, some BMW's had linked brakes where if you stepped on the rear pedal, it would engage both the rear and some front brake. (If you used the front brake, it would engage some rear brake as well). It was widely panned, as hitting the rear pedal at low speeds for slow corners as some riders tend to do, evidently caused plenty of low speed drops when the front wheel was suddenly braked unexpectedly as well. The next generation kept linked brakes, but only front to rear (pulling the lever engaged the front and a bit of rear, pressing the pedal only engaged the rear). From that Rider Magazine article, it does sound like the Honda would engage the front when only the pedal was pressed, but only in extreme situations where the rear is already locked.
IIRC they often broke, and with the high cost to fix them, many owners removed the ABS and just ran them as non-ABS brakes.
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Old June 3rd, 2022, 08:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain View Post
IIRC they often broke, and with the high cost to fix them, many owners removed the ABS and just ran them as non-ABS brakes.
That's what happened to my '04 bmw w/ linked abs... about a month after I sold it I felt bad for the new owner but I warned him these brakes were finicky.
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Old June 3rd, 2022, 08:49 AM   #39
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Apologies. WTF ��*♀️. I've always read C-ABS as cornering ABS. Not some half baked repetition of CBS in a digital format !? My bad, I've ridden them on track but never had any issues. CBS was the first thing to go on my VFR800, plus upgrading the front brakes. After one CBR600RR trackday when the next day I nearly put the VFR in a hedge, as the original brakes were so lame. That said I did like the stability the front to rear braking gave. But never liked the rear to front, which is just wrong in so many ways.
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Old June 3rd, 2022, 10:16 AM   #40
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If the C was for Cornering that would be Cool. I don't think anyone had it then. I think Ducati might have been first with it on a Multistrada a couple years later??
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