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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:29 PM   #1
MauR
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Spark plugs Questions

Hello everyone,

My Ninja started to do something weird. (6500 Miles and stock)

After arriving home yesterday, while I was opening the gate, the RPM's got lower and lower and the bike died. Engine sound was like if only one cylinder was working. It was a little hard to started it again but it did start.

After revving a little it keep the idle at 1350 but after a minute or so it died again the same way.

Today I removed the Spark plugs and found they are CR9E and one of them looked wet right after it was removed (cylinder 1).

Attached is a picture of the plugs. on the left is the one of cylinder 1.

I am going to replace the plugs

My Questions:

1. Should I use CR9E or CR8E??
2. Are plugs so dark due to the number or am I running rich??
3. Is the idle problem spark plug related or should I look for something else??
4. Gaps is .033, is this OK?

Thanks in advance for your kind help.
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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:39 PM   #2
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1 + 4) Recommended:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changin...rands_to_avoid
2) That carburetor is running rich.
3) Spark plug failed due to bridges to electricity's path that the accumulated carbon forms, making spark fail or stop jumping.

Bonus information:
http://www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm

http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html

Welcome, Mauricio !!!
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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:46 PM   #3
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some useful info

www.strappe.com/plugs.html

in short use the CR8E gap is .6 -.7mm
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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:55 PM   #4
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Thank you so Much!!!

Every thing is clear now!!!

MotoFool:
1. The first link states CR8HSA, is this number for pregen 250?? or what is the difference with CR8E??

2. Do you think that with this carburettors I can remove the snorkel safely and do no shimming??

Snot: I can't see that link, seems to be down.

Thanks again!!!
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Old November 25th, 2015, 09:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauR View Post

Snot: I can't see that link, seems to be down.

Thanks again!!!
fixed
Cr9 is a cooler plug
this might help
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/190...plugs-vs-cr8e/
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Old November 26th, 2015, 07:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauR View Post
.....I am going to replace the plugs

My Questions:

1. Should I use CR9E or CR8E??
2. Are plugs so dark due to the number or am I running rich??
3. Is the idle problem spark plug related or should I look for something else??
4. Gaps is .033, is this OK?
Another thing to take in consideration is your altitude and the condition of your air filter.

Looking at your location (Mexico City Mexico?), your elevation is going to be over 7,000 ft ASL. For a bike with stock carb adjustments/jetting, you will see rich looking plugs and the bike will run rich. Add in a dirty filter and you will get an ill running bike @ idle speed. Also avg temps can be a factor.

Look at the basic things first. Better burning plugs (Iridium CR8EIX) and a better breathing air filter (most aftermarket filters). Removal of the snorkel may work also.

If that does bring up your performance any, then rejetting to a smaller than stock #98 main jet, is in order.
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Old November 26th, 2015, 08:07 AM   #7
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauR View Post
......... MotoFool:
1. The first link states CR8HSA, is this number for pregen 250?? or what is the difference with CR8E??

2. Do you think that with this carburettors I can remove the snorkel safely and do no shimming??.......

Thanks again!!!
1) Yes, that recommendation is for pre-gen Ninjas.
The difference is in the thread length: letter H stands for 12.7 mm, while E stands for 19 mm.
S stands for copper core center electrode (not pure copper, but special nickel-steel alloy).
IX stands for iridium core center electrode (also an alloy).

The number 8 is the heat range, which in your particular case of current rich mix, and if modifications to the snorkel are not sufficient, could be safely elevated to 7 (hotter) to help with electrodes fouling.

http://www.ngk.com.au/spark-plugs/pr...mbering-system

2) Yes, you may need more air in the mix.
If so, the properly operating carburetor may be the one with the black plug, while the plug with proper color may be fed by a carb with certain restriction in the jets 9due to fuel deposits or dirt) that make the mix leaner (which happens to be correct for your altitude).

You are welcome
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Old November 26th, 2015, 03:06 PM   #8
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Thanks a lot to everyone!!!!

I already have the CR8E spark plugs (IX not available) and I'll put them in tonight and see if this fix the problem.

While in there I'll remove the snorkel and clean the air filter.

Do you consider I should sync the carbs soon or am I ok as they are??
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Old November 26th, 2015, 07:29 PM   #9
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NGK (7669) CR8HIX Iridium IX Spark Plug, Pack of 1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HDF852..._Pb8vwb8QH5SGD

Did you renew the HT leads, and disassemble the caps?

Make sure you disassemble the caps, and clean them, and yes the caps get cruddy.

Here my write-up,

Quote:
Short explanation: The inside of the hard plastic caps accumulate crud the can short out the spark. This can cause rough running or failure to start. Every time you do any work on the bike: remove them disassemble and clean them and renew the wires or at least the connections.

The long Explanation, Warning engineering information can cause Drowsiness.
The ancient cylinder design of the engine dictates that the spark emanate form the center of the combustion chamber. In order to get it there, the plugs had to be located down deep in a well between the cams. This well is a perfect place for dirt and moisture to accumulate. Then because there is no cooling water at this point the metal around the plug runs very hot. Surround this with the large amount of cool metal and you have a recipe for condensation. Now K did drill a drain hole between the fins to help (a little) but it often gets plugged up.

The moisture boils off the base of the plug and the vapor condenses on the cool plastic cap and the plug insulator. This moisture forms a easier path for the electrons to ground than jumping the gap at the plug to make a spark. Misfire.
This issue is right up there with Pilot jets as a cause of trouble.

Here's some pictures that might be helpful. I took these when I replaced the wires themselves, as it was a good time for a write-up, and the wires were OEM from 1998.

Wires are just 7mm copper core, with clear silicone jacket

























Okay don't touch the carburetor synchronization screw!!! And here's why,

You can sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.
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Old November 26th, 2015, 08:18 PM   #10
MauR
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Thanks a lot Ghost!!!

I'll leave the carbs alone!!!

Already replaced the plugs and the bike is running great again! The only thing I'm thinking about is remove the snorkel... maybe this weekend
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Old November 26th, 2015, 09:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauR View Post
Thanks a lot Ghost!!!

I'll leave the carbs alone!!!

Already replaced the plugs and the bike is running great again! The only thing I'm thinking about is remove the snorkel... maybe this weekend
What year is the bike?

I strongly recommend that you service the spark plug caps, to eliminate another possible cause, and I also recommend this is done to make sure the caps are 100% right, as they due cause problems as I stated above.

I recently did the CoPs modification to eliminate the caps, and they produce a better spark and clean things up nicely.

Here's my write-up,
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/blog.php?b=8379

To address the altitude issue, here is the official Kawasaki service

Quote:
High altitude adjustments require replacement of certain carburetor jets.

High Altitude Carburetor Specifications
Main Jet: #102
Pilot Jet: #35

After high altitude adjustments are performed. provide the customer with the Vehicle Emission Control lnfonnation Update Label and label installation instructions (P/N 99969-0614).

Advise the customer that by law, the Vehicle Emission Control lnforrnation Update Label must be affixed to any vehicle modified with the high altitude adjustments.

NOTE
If a vehicle with the high altitude adjustments is used below 4000 feet (1219meters), the update label must be removed and the original carburetor parts must be reinstalled.
Another thing to consider is adjusting and tuning the idle mixture screws



Quote:
Your initial setting should be 3 full turns out from the bottom, remember just slightly tighten them, don't go all Conan on them.



Then warm it up, slowly turn 1 side pilot screw in until the rpms drop, then back out till RPM's peak (and no further)* Twist throttle...see how it reacts...tweak to taste.
Repeat on other side... test ride. You're looking for best throttle response and transition from just cracked to 1/4 throttle opening or so.*

Thats a quickie, 10 cent tutorial on setting pilot screws.**
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Old November 27th, 2015, 05:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
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....What year is the bike?

I strongly recommend that you service the spark plug caps, to eliminate another possible cause, and I also recommend this is done to make sure the caps are 100% right, as they due cause problems as I stated above.
Sounds like he's got a new gen 250R with only 6500 miles on it. The new gen plug wires and caps are different from the pre gens and unless his are dry and rotted, there is little to no need to break them down.

A simple check for corrosion and a little dielectric grease (petroleum jelly) inside the plug boot will help with any corrosion or potential electrical leaks.

No need of doing more work than necessary.
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Old November 27th, 2015, 07:23 PM   #13
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Thanks DaBlue1, It is 2009. Most of those miles are from Mexico City traffic... Really slow driving

The wires are different to those on the images and mine are in very good shape.

I'm thinking on wait for A few hundred miles an check plugs to try to see how carbs are before doing anything to them.

Thanks Ghostt, is that write up good for new gen ninjas??? My coils are ok but could be a good upgrade when I need to replace them
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Old November 28th, 2015, 12:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauR View Post
Thanks DaBlue1, It is 2009. Most of those miles are from Mexico City traffic... Really slow driving

The wires are different to those on the images and mine are in very good shape.

I'm thinking on wait for A few hundred miles an check plugs to try to see how carbs are before doing anything to them.

Thanks Ghostt, is that write up good for new gen ninjas??? My coils are ok but could be a good upgrade when I need to replace them
I'm not familiar with NewGen caps, but the HT leads are the same, so it only takes a few minutes to renew the ends to the coils and caps, and it will eliminate a possible cause. Take a good look inside the caps, and see if they can be disassembled, once again only a few minutes, to check. IMHO taking a few extra minutes to eliminate a variable isn't a waste of time, it's a part of diagnostics.

The CoPs modification should work the same, I've I've seen it done on a lot of bikes that use separate coils. What I do know is that the OEM set-up on the Ninjette, as well as the EX500 are weak, compared to the CoPs, and you can increase the gap to better utilize the hotter spark.

I've been running the CoPs modification for this past season, and no ill effects as of yet.

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Old November 29th, 2015, 08:05 PM   #15
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I run CoP from Takai and my plugs have no center electrode



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
I'm not familiar with NewGen caps, but the HT leads are the same, so it only takes a few minutes to renew the ends to the coils and caps, and it will eliminate a possible cause. Take a good look inside the caps, and see if they can be disassembled, once again only a few minutes, to check. IMHO taking a few extra minutes to eliminate a variable isn't a waste of time, it's a part of diagnostics.

The CoPs modification should work the same, I've I've seen it done on a lot of bikes that use separate coils. What I do know is that the OEM set-up on the Ninjette, as well as the EX500 are weak, compared to the CoPs, and you can increase the gap to better utilize the hotter spark.

I've been running the CoPs modification for this past season, and no ill effects as of yet.

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Old November 29th, 2015, 08:38 PM   #16
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CoPs mod is definitely on my ToDo list

Thanks
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Old November 30th, 2015, 08:34 AM   #17
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Interesting .... What is involved in the conversion and what benefits can I expect ?
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Old November 30th, 2015, 06:58 PM   #18
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Here are my instructions for the 500. The 250 might be slightly different, but this should give you the basic idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisiBill
I really don't think there's much to a DIY for anyone who's able to get to the plugs already.
  • Remove stock coils and plug wires.
  • Cut wires of CoP harness to length.
  • Install .25" male spade disconnects on CoP harness wires.
  • Plug CoP harness in place of stock coils. Red wire to red wire, other to other.
  • Install CoPs on spark plugs.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I used parts from a ZX-6R. Mine was listed as coming from a 2004 636, but it looks like they were used on the 600 (ZX-6RR) also, and from '03-'08. The CoPs are 21171-1282 ($102) and the harness is 26031-0007 ($63). I got the harness and 4 CoPs for <$25 on eBay - I don't see buying new parts being an affordable way to do this. The Ninja 300 uses a pair of similar CoPs, but they don't seem to be cheap and plentiful on eBay yet, so just save some money and get twice as much by buying a ZX-6R set. You can mod a second bike or have spares.
What it gives you is less clutter. Perhaps a slightly better spark. It does eliminate the plug wires, which means one less thing to cause issues.

Here are some pics from my 500.

Old:


New:


Finished product:


Normally the coil would be bolted to the frame using the bolts at the top, so you couldn't even see that area. Combined with removal of the emissions stuff on top, it's much easier to work around that part of the bike.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 07:41 PM   #19
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Interesting .... What is involved in the conversion and what benefits can I expect ?
Here's my write up as well.

Kawasaki ZX Ignition Coil Pack modification.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #20
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Supporting the CoPs

Update:

Some concerns about supporting the CoPs has come up, so I decided to look into this.

The fix is simple, remove the rubber tops from the OEM plug caps, and install them on the CoPs. You will need to remove the small rubber ring on the top of the CoPs, and slide the OEM rubber on, after that your all set.







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Old November 30th, 2015, 08:43 PM   #21
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Damn good info here
Thanks !
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Old December 1st, 2015, 09:43 AM   #22
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@Ghostt I saw on your write up that you were adjusting your gap for the CoPs. Did you notice any difference after this?
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Old December 1st, 2015, 09:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
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@Ghostt I saw on your write up that you were adjusting your gap for the CoPs. Did you notice any difference after this?
I didn't feel any chance, good or bad, so I'm guessing it's a good idea to open up the gap since it didn't cause any problems.
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Old December 2nd, 2015, 04:47 AM   #24
InvisiBill
EX500 full of EX250 parts
 
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Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012

Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold)

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MOTM - Aug '15
A larger gap will make a larger spark, which should result in a better burn in the cylinder. However, a larger gap is also harder to arc across, so you're more likely to get misfires. The idea is to make it as big as possible without causing problems.

FOG has stated that the EX500's stock ignition system was known to have spark issues at the top end. I didn't personally notice any issues on my street bike, but with the CoPs and Iridium plugs I was able to open the gap up to .032" (stock is .024-.028") without creating any noticeable problems, and it should give me a better spark.

Even if the performance is 100% identical to stock, simply cleaning things up on top of the engine makes it worth doing in my eyes.
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