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Old October 21st, 2012, 05:47 PM   #1
02337
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Is there such a thing as too comfy?

So to the point here I've been thinking lately the more I rode the more comfortable I feel. I've been riding for almost 2 months with about 5k miles in that time. I find myself being able to take turns faster and generally more well rounded on the bike. Well is there a point and time where you seasoned riders know you're pushing it too hard before the bike tells you? Is this something that just comes with more time?

Example 45 minutes into my hour work commute there's my favorite turn, advisory speed of 45 speed limit of 55 I used to be scared of the turn and did 45 the whole way, now I find myself coming out at about 75 and entry speed of around 55-60. Nowhere do I feel unsafe or like I'm pushing the bike to its limits.(there's still about 1/2" of chicken strips as most of my commute is straight)

So when do you know consciously or subconsciously to slow it down or take it a little easier?

2nd question, push or pull? When you're counter steering are you more of a pull outside bar or push inside bar? I find myself doing push and pull sometimes, and sometimes just push the inside or pull the outside. Is there a hard fast rule? It feels the same to me so I imagine there's really probably no difference but I don't know any other riders so figured I'd throw it out there!

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Old October 21st, 2012, 05:55 PM   #2
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Old October 21st, 2012, 05:57 PM   #3
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Seems about right the most subtle on ramps have 15 mph tractor trailer warning signs in yellow does that count?
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Old October 21st, 2012, 06:33 PM   #4
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Take turns at double the yellow sign.
NO!!!! Bad Jiggles... hahahahahah

Don't out ride your vision until you know the road. After that, ride your comfortable pace until your pace becomes unsafe for the road conditions. As far as how hard can you push? Simple, are you gunna get a ticket for riding the speed your comfortable? Any other factors make it an unsafe speed? If so, then yea.... too fast. Comfort can mean too complacent as well.

And you push to countersteer. Ask about pulling after you have been to the track about 10 times.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 06:36 PM   #5
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Well I find that if in a upright position pulling is more comfortable, if I'm tucked down a little more pushing is easier.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 06:54 PM   #6
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My biggest factor in deciding a safe speed through a turn is visibility and road conditions. I'm not sure how likely you are to encounter animals/gravel unexpectedly, but that's also a large consideration.

Personally, I'm now at the point where I can take pretty much every road in my area at an unacceptably fast pace without even raising my heart rate. My solution; I ride slower, enjoy the scenery, work on relaxing my upper body, pick a gear and work on setting up entry speed without shifting or using the brakes, and work on being as smooth as possible.

Riding like this becomes a mental challenge to keep improving, rather than feeling like I'm pushing myself too hard on the street. It's much safer as well, since I'm riding at a pace that is closer to the speed limits, and I'm well within my limits.

Smooth = fast, relaxed, and enjoyable. Always pushing too hard = higher risk, and more tiring.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 07:06 PM   #7
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Well I find that if in a upright position pulling is more comfortable, if I'm tucked down a little more pushing is easier.
Trust brother..... you want to get in the habit of pushing. You will thank yourself when you have to quickly swerve out of the way of something without thinking. If you can see far enough ahead and your riding relaxed, then fine pull.... but the "unconscious" reaction should be to push.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 08:12 PM   #8
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.... but the "unconscious" reaction should be to push.
Very true.

Creating good riding habits should be a priority, since those may save your life more than one time.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114372

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114555

Emergency situations are frequently associated with heavy braking, which will push your body forward, and you will support some of your weight on the handlebar (more if it catches you in a relaxed upright position).

Post #6 above is also excellent.
Regarding street riding:
Riding dangerously fast is easy after the first few weeks of riding.
Riding smoothly and in total alertness and control is much more difficult; however, it is the only door that leads to riding safely fast.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 08:51 PM   #9
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Well see I've been riding comfortably the whole trip to work and back, a lot less stressed but not mind numbing. Still staying alert and focused but finding myself more......one with the bike if you will. Granted 2 hours a day on it I feel like I live on it. But that's what concerned me as I was being more relaxed through turns at a little faster than normal speeds I was just thinking to myself if I was just getting used to going maybe too fast? Maybe it's just getting used to riding.

Well lately I've been consciously putting the effort on pushing to counter steer as opposed to pulling that's why I figured I'd ask. Thanks for all the insight!
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Old October 21st, 2012, 09:02 PM   #10
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Playing devils advocate here but there is no such thing as getting used to going to fast. hahahahaha! There is just a time and place....
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Old October 21st, 2012, 09:02 PM   #11
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Old October 21st, 2012, 09:38 PM   #12
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I don't think I go fast honestly, in reality technically 65-70 is fast i would also assume most bike riders consider this quite slow. I don't think I'm riding too fast but then again that's why I made this post to see when you realize what too fast is.

I've had a bad itch lately wanting to go to the track I have to find one local or someone local ish I can attend with. Cross country ninjette track weekend?
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Old October 21st, 2012, 09:50 PM   #13
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Yes, there is something called "too comfortable" on a bike, and it is especially likely that something will go wrong if you are a new rider and just starting to get into this comfortable feeling.

It sounds like you are pushing your limits more and more. You managed to do a turn at 75 in a 55 zone once, but what happens when you push through your limits? Low siding or high siding at those speeds might be an accident you don't come back from.

At the end of the day you are responsible for managing your traction limits and trying to optimize your traction on the streets. Chicken strips actually have very little relevance to managing traction, you can be doing everything wrong through a turn and risk low or high siding while still having 3 inch "chicken strips".

Here's a few questions for you to test if you are maybe too comfortable for your own good right now:

- do you know when your suspension is level through the turn? Can you tell when your suspension is bottom or topping out through a fast turn?

- do you know how to react during a rear tire slide? can you trust your right wrist to do the right thing during a slide?

- do you know how to react when there is debris mid turn and the front wheel might lose traction?

- do you know how to tell through steering when the road surface has less then optimal traction? do you know how to maximize traction in these cases when leaned over?

If you can't really answer any of these questions, you should probably slow down and learn a bit more about the finer details of riding before pushing your limits on the streets too much.

It's fine to get familiar with how a motorcycle operates and turns, but it sounds like you are just going faster and faster testing the limits of each and every corner. Not trying to be harsh, but low siding at 75 mph is no joke, and some of us have friends that aren't coming back who will know exactly what I'm talking about.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:06 PM   #14
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Granted I do this turn 2 times a day at this speed. I've had moments unfortunately with similiar situations and learned from them. How does one learn how to ride out a rear tire slide if you never go through it. Reading something or watching and having it be a natural reaction I think are 2 very different things.

I just used this turn as a exampletge turns about a 40 degree angle and is no means a twisty, it's on a major highway.

I mainly just wanted to know how do you know when you are pushing it too far? Do you ask yourself the questions above before entering a turn? When does one really know their limit? Certain bike angles?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 04:00 AM   #15
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Cross country ninjette track weekend?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 06:38 AM   #16
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.......I mainly just wanted to know how do you know when you are pushing it too far? Do you ask yourself the questions above before entering a turn? When does one really know their limit? Certain bike angles?
George,

Pushing too far is all about your levels of skill and knowledge, combined with the road conditions.

If you enter a turn at 60 mph, using the wrong techniques, you may be pushing way farther than another rider entering the same turn at 75 mph, using proper techniques.

Rossi uses different speeds, braking and accelerations on dry and wet track.

There are physical limits of the bike and there are mental (from perception) limits of the rider:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=518

As a rule of thumb for street riding, use the posted speed limits as a guide; especially if you are not familiar with the area.

Some are too conservative, but must are based on individual studies on visibility, traffic volume, danger of sudden crossing vehicles, animals and children, slipperiness, history of accidents, population, etc.

The main problem with speed is that the stopping distance increases with the square of it rather than linearly (same for lean angle).

It is perfectly normal to feel more comfortable with your bike and your riding after several thousands of miles.

It is not good to feel over-confident, simply because you have not experienced any emergency situation.

If you keep riding, that situation will arrive.
All you will have at that point is the training that you have done before, systematically and purposely; you will not be able to think.

http://www.msgroup.org/articles.aspx?Cat=2

Regarding speed, distance and lean angle, always give yourself some margin for error.
I have been riding for almost half a century and still make riding mistakes once in a while.

If you are curious about the limits of traction, the street is not the safest environment to conduct experiments; simply, there are many vehicles and obstacles that can hurt you very badly.
That is why so many riders recommend practicing in track days.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 01:30 PM   #17
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In the mid-2000s, I saw a statistic (so I don't know if it's still accurate) that most motorcycle accidents happen in the second year of riding. The hypothesis was that this is the time when people are 'old' enough at it to get comfy, but still 'new' enough to make most of their mistakes. It sounds like maybe you ride enough to get to your 'second year' danger zone quite a few months early. So that's just to say: be careful, and put your time in.

Also, I see you live in Delaware. Temps are changing, so watch those tires. Even with the mediocre tires on these bikes, the difference between hot and (relatively) sticky, warm and (not un-)sticky, and stone-cold, is the difference between rocketing through the turn stable, sliding a bit and raising your heart rate, and low siding. I had my first temp-related loss of traction last week on cold tires. Rather glad I had it at 30 mph and in a sedate turn, rather than at 70 in an aggressive turn.

Good luck, and keep learning!
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 01:36 PM   #18
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Yea. I've been down a few times because of it...
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 03:34 PM   #19
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When's got the bike I put new tires on it. I normally take it quite easy till I know te tires are quite warm.
I rode the Delaware dragon today which was fantastic, I rode solo(wish I had a friend to ride with!) so I set my own pace. I made a concious effort to keep it slower and not be over confident. Was really my first time through such a twisty. Bout an hour each way, I still had a good time without pushing my myself or the bike too far.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 04:21 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 02337 View Post
So to the point here I've been thinking lately the more I rode the more comfortable I feel. I've been riding for almost 2 months with about 5k miles in that time. I find myself being able to take turns faster and generally more well rounded on the bike. Well is there a point and time where you seasoned riders know you're pushing it too hard before the bike tells you? Is this something that just comes with more time?


So when do you know consciously or subconsciously to slow it down or take it a little easier?

2nd question, push or pull? When you're counter steering are you more of a pull outside bar or push inside bar? I find myself doing push and pull sometimes, and sometimes just push the inside or pull the outside. Is there a hard fast rule? It feels the same to me so I imagine there's really probably no difference but I don't know any other riders so figured I'd throw it out there!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannndddddd
Discuss!
George across the Delaware,

The bike doesn't tell you you're pushing too hard, the ground does.

Don't worry about consciously or subconsciously, worry about UNCONSCIOUSNESS.

2nd question, both and being smooth at the same time.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 05:05 PM   #21
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......I made a conscious effort to keep it slower and not be over confident......... I still had a good time without pushing my myself or the bike too far.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 05:08 PM   #22
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I mainly just wanted to know how do you know when you are pushing it too far? Do you ask yourself the questions above before entering a turn? When does one really know their limit? Certain bike angles?
The thing is if you push things too far, then it's already too late, there isn't much you can do once you cross the traction limits and aren't prepared for it - the tires will just slide and if it's the front you are looking at a potential low side, and the rear a potential high side. By the way once you do cross traction limits on the streets things will happen so fast if you've never been through it before you will probably go down hard. Everyone likes to think going down will never happen to them, but unless you've been down or seen someone go down you don't really have a good idea just how fast things fall apart.

My question to you is - what makes you so confident through the turns? Is it the fact you accelerated to a certain speed and actually survived? That isn't enough feedback to make a solid judgement, and I think that's why you started asking the questions.

If you don't know what your suspension is doing, how do you know how far you can push things? If you don't know what your suspension feels like just before it bottoms out, or just before it tops out, or even how much traction you think you're using compared to how much is available at any point in the turn - then your confidence may be completely imaginary.

The whole point is you are in charge of managing your traction envelope and understanding what your bike is doing. Leaning over farther uses more traction. Going faster uses more traction. Accelerating uses traction. Braking uses traction. A combination of all these things sets the standard for appropriate speeds around a corner.

It really helps to push the limits of a motorcycle in a controlled environment so you can get a full range of suspension feedback - preferably from a sportsbike with high quality communicative suspension. That's why many people recommend going to the track, where at least if you do go down, you won't slam into a lamp post at 20 MPH risking your spine, neck, and head.

If you are at all interested in high performance fast riding around corners, you owe it to yourself to save for a track day or even a track school.

Another option is taking your bike on some dirt trails, to get a feel for how your bike behaves on low traction situations, but dirt trails and paved streets are very different for many reasons - not the least of which in many ways public paved streets have less predictable traction then a road covered in dirt.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 05:12 PM   #23
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Another option is taking your bike on some dirt trails, to get a feel for how your bike behaves on low traction situations, but dirt trails and paved streets are very different for many reasons - not the least of which in many ways public paved streets have less predictable traction then a road covered in dirt.
Ride a mountain bike or a dirt bike instead. Much less expensive when you crash.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 05:39 PM   #24
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I never said I was overly confident in turns. I just feel more confident in turns than I used to and I wanted know if There's a limit or wall that seasoned riders get the feel for and know that's their limit. I'm not saying I'm out doing max speed throughout every turn. And I'm not saying I do high performance fast riding just general riding, I'm no expert an a track day is something I do plan on doing. Why do I feel like I'm on the defensive about this as I started with just a general question.....
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 06:02 PM   #25
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You're fine!! It's just that online, you get everything from seasoned riders with lots of technical skill to newbies who are still learning. Heck, we're all learning, it's just a large difference of skill levels.

Feeling confident is good. Knowing how to relax and fight your SR's and ride out a turn is good. Feeling comfortable with leaning and rolling on and looking through your turns is good. Being cocky is bad. There's a fine line. As long as you know that you're alright.

You'll know you're pushing too hard and being dumb when you start finding yourself thinking, "huh, maybe I should have reacted differently to _____ that was in the road" or, "that could have been bad" or, "oh sh!t that was way too fast". Often, the limits of the road (traffic, road temp, crap on the road, animals, people, weather) are much much lower than those of the bike/rider. Those are the real limits that you have to follow.

I completely agree with the above post about the second season being dangerous. That's what I experienced as well; just skilled enough to push, but not experienced enough to realize you shouldn't be. The track is way more fun than the street anyways.
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