4000 Mile Maintenance.. have you done it?

[paterick4o8]

Exactly as the title shows.. have any of you done this maintenance yet or had your bike serviced for this?

If you look at the 2008+ Maintenance Schedule, it shows to basically have the brake system inspected, and the Evaporative emission control system checked (CA model only).

I personally have not had these done, I'm at about 4900 miles right now. Just curious though.

[Broom]

sounds like a way for the service department to make some money.

i would check you brake pads though. front and rear. they go quick on the 250s

[Viper-Byte]

When I had mine done (I should have done it myself, but didn't...) They didn't have to change anything with the braking system, changed the oil/filter, checked nuts and bolts, lubed a few parts and that was all.

I am now coming up to the 12000km service (7500m) and I am not confident to do this service myself.

[travis5018]

Yea I am coming up on my 4k and I checked the manual and laughed. I will just check my brake pads and such and save up for the most likely expensive 7.5k service which I will get from my dealer

[i916it]

Brake pads went out for me at about 5000.

I skipped the 4K mile service. Only going for the 7500 for the valves/carbs.

[travis5018]

howd you tell the brake pads went out for you?

[i916it]

either look at them, or if you're braking it'll feel funny. it should also require you to pull the lever more for braking even while going slow speeds.

also, you should be able to hear the metal grindin on the rotor depending on how bad it was.

when I swapped out the pads, there was barely any left.

[SteveL]

Here in Switzerland we have a Warrantee for three years parts and labor on condition the bike is serviced by a dealer. Do you not have this in the US

Steve

[i916it]

^Nooooooop.

[Alex]

There are U.S. laws that prohibit a vehicle manufacturer from requiring dealer service to keep a warranty intact. There's no law (that I know of) that requires a manufacturer to provide a warranty, but if they do, that warranty cannot be voided by doing your own service, or having another person do the service. If there is a warranty claim afterwards, if they don't want to pay it's the responsibility of the vehicle manufacturer to prove that the non-dealer service caused the problem, rather than the owner having to prove that the service didn't cause the problem. U.S. Kawi's have a 1 year warranty on parts and labor, but you can also buy extended warranties from Kawi to push that 1 year up to I think as many as 5 years.

[headshrink]

I didn't.... I can look at my own pads for free

I was stupid though and bought the 5yr. warentee (dumb, dumb, dumb)!

[Banzai]

Be aware that the stock pads have a notch down the middle of them. It's a GO/NO GO indicator, just like the wear indicators on tires.

The "useable" limit of the pads will form a bridge over where the notch is. You can see it most clearly when looking at the rear pads, but the fronts are the same part number and have them too. Also, you might need to spray some brake parts cleaner on them to wash away some of the brake/road dust, as it sometimes packs in there and you can't see it.

If there is no pad material bridging the little slot on either or both pads (as they do not always wear 100% evenly), you're in the NO GO territory and should replace the pads ASAP. Be aware, also, that the aftermarket EBC and Galfer pads (higher quality, cheaper price, better availability, and better rotor wear with more predictable braking action) do not have the same indicator slot, so you'll have to measure those.

[headshrink]

What do you mean by better rotor wear? Is it more even, slower to wear .....?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by headshrink

What do you mean by better rotor wear? Is it more even, slower to wear .....?

Let me see if I can explain it as I understand it when comparing the EBC HH pad compound and the stock sintered HH compound. The EBC pads have a higher initial bite, and overall higher coeficient of friction than the stock pads FOR A GIVEN PRESSURE LEVEL ON THE BRAKE PEDAL/LEVER, but the sintered metal matrix compoud also has a higher "shed factor" if you will.

That means that the pads provide more "stopping power" and "feel" with less force. Less force means less overall attack on the rotor, thereby wearing the ROTOR less. Pad life seems to be a little longer than stock, too, for the same reason. The pads shed more than stock pads, but it's of a finer grade and does not cake up on either the pad surface or the rotor grooves, thereby also contributing to needing LESS overall force to achieve the same braking effect because you're placing a cleaner pad face on a cleaner rotor contact point.

The stock pads are relatively porus, and they'll absorb quite a lot of their own dust. Take a set off and wipe them down until they're clean, then actually spray them down with brake/parts cleaner and you'll see 'em shed a ton of dust that you never saw. That's because the compound that they use soaks in the dust. The EBC compound is tighter, and does not absord as much.


The dust acts as a lubricant (like little ball bearings) between the pad and the rotor, and it takes some initial heat and pressure to heat the dust, heat the pad, heat the rotor, to shed the dust to a clean surface and get full braking effect each and every time you apply the brake. The EBCs don't absorb as much dust, heat faster, cool faster, and consequently clean faster so you can achieve braking effect faster. All of this happens faster than you can tell it, but it happens each and every time you apply the brake, no matter what kind of vehicle, and a certain amount of heat is required in the system to activate the brake pad compounds. Much of the heat is shed to the rotor and to the airflow, but some of it goes into the brake componts as well. Most notable in being heat intolerant is the brake fluid, which is why it's so important to monitor your fluid quality (brown fluid is bad!!).

If you could see the pads under a microscope, they'd look like sponges. The stock ones would have relatively large holes compared to the EBC pads. The stock pads would heat up, and the holes would get larger, allowing dust the heated dust to shed, but new dust to pack into them before they cooled off and got too small for dust to pack in. The EBC pads start out with smaller holes, and when they heat up they shed the collected dust faster, and still have relatively smaller holes to collect new dust. Because they cool faster, there is also LESS TIME to collect the dust, thereby limiting it's build up. Also, because they EBCs heat faster, they begin to shed the previously built up dust faster, thus giving them a higher initial bite characteristic.

It would seem that the forces would balance out, with greater pad wear on the EBCs, but it doesn't work out that way. Better pad material + less heat generated + cleaner surfaces + better heat cycling ability = less overall force needed to stop = less wear in the overall system.

One thing that most of us note when using EBC pads, though, is that they work best with a little heat in them, so you'll achieve better braking force after the first few dozen blocks starting out, but even their cold braking quality is better than the stock ones at proper operating temperature.

Clear as mud? I hope that didn't confuse you. I think that I almost confused myself on that one!

[headshrink]

Great explanation!

What do you recommend for commuting and weekend rides?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Great explanation!

What do you recommend for commuting and weekend rides?

Wow, that's almost the "which oil is better?" question!!!

That's more about personal preference than anything. I will tell you that the traditional old ninja did well with HH pads in front and GG rated pads in the rear. Tradition was to use Galfer HH front and Galfer black in the rear or the EBC equavilent.

The reasoning behind using lower rated pads on the rear is to prevent lock up of the rear. The suspension geometry of the bike is such that it gets light on the rear wheel very easily, leading to lock up under heavy braking quite often if balance and a steady foot isn't used properly. With lesser rated pads, they don't "grip" as much or as fast, thus allowing a heavy foot rear braker to keep the same force as stock HH pads, but reduce the chance of locking the rear. It's up to you, and an approach that you may find helpful if you find that you're locking up your rear brake often and/or cannot break the bad habit of applying too much pressure there.

The stock 08+ pads are HH rated sintered pads, and overall not a bad choice performance wise as long as you understand their limitations. Traditionally, their main drawback has been price and availability. That continues with the 08+ bikes.

I like the EBC HH sintered for all of the reasons stated above. 08+ bikes use part number FA197HH, but even cyclebrakes.com is having trouble keeping them in stock since they're such a great replacement, and the 08s are starting to age/wear to the point where demand is spiking. If you want to use their organic pads, traditional "black" compound, those are FA197s. I tried the traditional HH/Black F/R combo, and hated the slippery feel of the rear for my style of riding/braking IN THIS CHASIS. For the 07 and older bikes, it's a great combo.

Be aware that the traditional "black" compound has a different feel and performance than the stock HH pads. Doesn't necessarily mean that they stop slower, or with less authority, just that they work differently. For my riding/braking style, that means using more brake with blacks than I do with HHs. Another thing is that the black compound is an organic compound, and makes for a good "all around" pad when you just need cheap pads, with better initial bite and less rotor wear, but they will not perform like HH pads if you're used to agressive useage of the brakes. They'll have a different 'feel' when wet in the rain, too.

WARNING: Galfer does NOT at this time make pads in their HH rated compound for our 08+ bikes yet. When I called them, they considered all of the issues the front and rear being the same pad, and declined to make HH pads due to the liability and lock up issue on the rear tire. Galfer part number is the FD145 pad. What someone WILL sell you, though, is the HH compound on the FD117 backing plate, which is nearly .100 thinner in backing plate and compound PER PAD than the correct FD145 pads. They will fit, and some do use them, especially track guys, but you'll have to pay attention to fluid levels, as the 117 pads are about as thick as half worn stock pads and you could find youself needing to top off the master cylinder resivoir.

Galfer SPECIFICALLY does not warrant pads for anything other than specific useage, so if something goes wrong, it's ALL on you.

That said, I absolutely LOVE the EBC FA197HH pads for agressive street riding, front and rear. Very predictable, better than stock stopping, and coupled with the Galfer stainless line, it's like having your hand on a precision instrument when it comes to working the brake. To really appreciate them, though, you need to NOT have a heavy right foot under braking. For the street, if you get it right, the bike will squat nice and flat and you'll be able to stop on a dime and give nine cents change every time!

If you like to, or have the bad habit of, locking the rear tire, I would stay with stock rear pads or move to the black compound IF you're not willing to break the bad habit.

Summary:
Invest in AT LEAST the front Galfer stainless line. You'll be amazed how much less force and how much more 'tuned in' to your brakes you'll be!

EBC PN FA197 (organic "black")/FA197HH (metallic HH)
Galfer PN FD145

Go to www.cyclebrakes.com and click on the Product Info link, then you can compare the description of both the Galfer and EBC products. You'll see that they say that the HH rated metallic pads wear the rotors more, but on the street, with several different bikes, this has not been my experience as I stated above.

Don't forget to bed in your pads as per the manufacturers recommendations.

If you can get your hands on ONE set of the EBC FA197HH pads, put 'em on the front. Use the stock rear pads until they're gone, then put the stockers that you took out of the front on the rear (as long as they're within wear limits) and you're covered for pads for at least a season of hard riding and can decide if you want to switch completely in the off season up to full aftermarket HH pads, or try some other combo.

[Alex]

Fantastic post, and it explains what I'm feeling right now. I've got EBC FA197 in front, not the FA197HH's, and the front brake does require more lever effort than I'd prefer. They work fine and stop the bike probably equally quickly, but the feel isn't optimal, and I'll defniitely go to the HH's as these wear out.

[Banzai]

Here's a pic showing the stock pads with the wear indicator. If you get to the point that there is no pad material between the two parts of each pad, it's time to change pads NOW. These are stock rear pads with about 4K miles on them from a bike where the guy doesn't use much rear brake. They're about 1/3-1/2 worn from new.

[headshrink]

That is a lot to consider, but you explained it well - I appreciate that!
So.... when is the explanation on oil coming

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by headshrink

That is a lot to consider, but you explained it well - I appreciate that!
So.... when is the explanation on oil coming

Well, since you asked, and not to derail the original thread:

I use Shell Rotella 5W40 synthetic, and changed at 1700 miles. No issues, and all of the benefits, most notably with the shifting.

Check out these links (caution, heavy reading, but AWESOME info, especially the last two from Sport Rider magazine):

Heavy duty info about oil GREAT info, a little technical, very long, but his recommendations are based on engineering analysis and conclusions match a lot of real world experience

Sport Rider Oil pt1 Awesome series of articles where they actually analyze some oils, and compare what's in them, and confirms that there IS indeed a difference between car and motorcycle specific oil products

Sport Rider Oil pt2

[paterick4o8]

Thanks for the input Thomas, def helped my understanding on brakes and our bikes

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I didn't.... I can look at my own pads for free

I was stupid though and bought the 5yr. warentee (dumb, dumb, dumb)!

I also bought the extended 4 yrs Good times Plan warranty!
I disagree, as i will Keep this lil 250R for a Long time after the 5 yr warranty (total) is up!
Yea i might Never have anything blow up or break on it, but What if sumin EXPENSIVE DOES? and the cost too Fix all, more then out-weighs the 4 yr GTPP cost?

Looking ahead, Gas Prices drive up too $130 barrel, dont you want your 250R for the 60+ MPG for back n forth too work still?

Also seeing the ZX-6R... if i get a 2nd Bike in the future, the 6R will be it, it doesnt have a Gas Gauge (atm, maybe in 2010+ theyll put them on Standard). I really dont wanna have too customize and drill out a hole for a aftermarket gas gauge, or "the old school gas gauge... Shake bike back n forth... Yep i see Gas... that should be Enuff! "

[headshrink]

I'm curious as to your choice in oil weight (5W40), as opposed to the recommended 10W40? I know the Shell Rotella synth is popular amoungst 250r owners, so I almost got some, but couldn't find it in 10W40.

[kkim]

they only make it in 5w-40.

[paterick4o8]

[Ken08Ninja]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I'm curious as to your choice in oil weight (5W40), as opposed to the recommended 10W40? I know the Shell Rotella synth is popular amoungst 250r owners, so I almost got some, but couldn't find it in 10W40.

The first number is the cold rating. 5W40 and 10W40 act the same when up to temp. Shell Rotella synth 5W40 is fine, just let the bike warm up before revving it too much.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by paterick4o8

Thanks for the input Thomas, def helped my understanding on brakes and our bikes

Thanks. I try!

[randomwalk101]

what about Vesrah pads?

[almost40]

I run mobile1 racing 4t synt im pretty sure you can get it in both 10w and 5w

[backinthesaddleagain]

did my own 4k today. local small engine guy had k&n filters (with o rings) for $6. i check the brake pad wear every week anyway, and they still look good. tightened fasteners (only fairings bolts were la little loose).