Tig welder Woes...

[Bob KellyIII]

Back in april I bought a cheepo tig welder off Amazon for $200 bucks...
it is a Stick and Tig welder nothing fancy DC only with up to 200 amps (or so it says) its a Toolome brand from China and everything seems to work but the TIG portion as I have welded DC aluminum rod with it already as my other welder is AC... so the stick welder works great.... but I can't get the TIG to work.... and I think I discovered WHY tonight..... I was looking through youtube videos about learning to TIG weld and this guy said the gun plugs into the positive plug in ..... but there is no big high tension plug in on the TIG gun !
... I think that is why it was so cheap ! they forgot something !
....
so I am thinking I should be able to take the stinger lead for the stick welding the lead-wire to the stick Rod holder.... and put it on the TIG gun....
and that SHOULD make the TIG work... because there is no power to the gun at the moment.......
....i think I can do that... but I have no idea what I will find as far as hookups go at the gun !!!.....
....
but when I press the trigger on the TIG gun I can hear a click but no arc
and I think that is because they omitted the high tension lead for the gun !
..... it's like UH ? you got to be Kidding Right ? but unfortunately that seems to be the case!!!!!
....
Any of you guys that can TIG can jump in here and tell me if my assumptions are right or not.... god only knows if the HIGH Voltage for the Arc works or not but I assume it will ! LOL

........
....
Bob.....

[Triple Jim]

Photos or a link to the welder, or both, would help. Do you have a tank of inert gas, like argon, and a regulator connected?

TIG open circuit voltage is typically about 70, so it's not really "HIGH voltage".

For welding steel, the tungsten in your TIG torch should be negative polarity, and the work positive.

Edit: I just noticed you said "trigger on the TIG gun". This sounds like you are trying to do MIG welding, not TIG. They're very different.

[DannoXYZ]

Does it work for TIG in original as-designed configuration (DCEN)??? As in welding basic mild-steel 1st?


Yup, have to reverse polarity for aluminium DC TIG welding DCEP. Have dedicated tungsten for it as well because it balls up tip. Also should use helium for shielding gas instead of argon for better penetration because alloy wicks heat away from weld-zone extremely fast compared to steel. You should learn to scratch-start TIG anyway and not depend on HF button.

Should only be TWO cables to reverse. The actual power+ground ones.

The gun trigger-button is 3rd wire that should still go to relay/power-transistor to turn it on. Which really should only activate gas-valve and HF. Nothing to do with power. Sounds like you reversed wrong leads and disconnected trigger-button and swapped it with ground?


1. Post some photos of wiring-connections on original TIG configuration that works for steel.
2. post photos of your reversed polarity connections.


BTW - Harbour Freight has decent TIG/stick welders for $149.

EDIT - is this unit you got? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQJR6W.
No way you're gonna get 200a out of 110v supply... how are you going to get 45a 110v input line???
Output appears to be: 10.6v/15a up to 18v/200a in TIG mode.

[DannoXYZ]

Also DO NOT use youtube videos for anything but entertainment: best bike-crashes, kitten videos, but NOTHING educational, so many incorrect and fake stuff there.

https://boingboing.net/2022/05/04/fa...denounced.html

Link to original page on YouTube.

Or this one showing you how to destroy your phone's SIM card

Link to original page on YouTube.


DC TIG welding aluminium still isn't that great. I think aluminium brazing is best if you don't have AC TIG unit. This is one of few Youtube channels that's trustworthy.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Other alternative to AC TIG for aluminium is laser welder.

[DannoXYZ]

BTW - your welder may be busted...

[Bob KellyIII]

thanks for the responce to both of you but neither one of you answered my question... let me re phraise my question....
does the TIG torch....leadin cable have a plug in so you can switch polarity
(like you mentioned Danno,) My TIG torch is missing that plug in ! no wonder it won't work !
.... so I will attempt to take the stinger of the stick welder portion and put it through the covering to the torch gun itself and see if I can hook it up...
it isn't a "TRIGGER" on the gun actually just a button that turns it on and makes the gas flow... just like a foot pettle but its a button on the TIG gun.
....
switch polarities ! negative to gun and positive to the work ! ok gotcha... when I can do that because as it came the gun cable had no plug in to any polarity....that is the problem... and I am so new at this TIG welding stuff I don't know what to look for !!!!
I mainly got it so I can silicon bronze BRAZE the gears on my Logan lathe
and TIG welding the Bronze on the gears looks to be the best way....
I made a Zuse Torch for propane that should reach that needed temperature
but I have sense thought better about heating the entire part to those high temperatures .( the part needs to be Pre-heated, but not all of it to cherry Red.... and I think that is exactly what the zuse torch would do it covers a wide area !)
..... So actually the question has been answered thanks.... I'll see what I can do.... if I can get it to work I'll let ya all know !
.....
Bob...

[DannoXYZ]

difficult to understand your scenarios because we're missing data:

1. don't know exact model of your torche

2. or if it even works properly, does trigger button work in "normal" DCEN mode for welding steel?

3. photos of cables coming off welder and how they're attached


For your lathe gears, why are you brazing instead welding? Is it because it was originally brazed on? If brazing was to keep heat down to prevent distortion, TIG brazing won't reduce temps in HAZ much compared to TIG welding anyway. To keep heat to minimum, you'll want to use gas torche.

Link to original page on YouTube.


Gas brazing's only way to keep heat low and join thin heat-treated chromoly or *crom tubing (some of this is just 0,4mm thick!). I prefer smooth fillets, lighter and transmit loads across cleaner.

[Bob KellyIII]

Well, Hummm ! I took apart the TIG gun and found no connecting points whatsoever for a cable to be connected it's totally sealed to hold argon gas
only the gas hose goes to the torch tip...( and the 2 wires for the switch).... so how in bloody hell does it get the power to light up an arc ? .... well, obviously it can't !
....
so with no way to plug in a lead to the welding tip I guess I am going to be
forced to buy a whole new tig torch... hoses cable and all
....
I wish I knew what a working TIG torch looked like ! on the inside.... because this one looks like it is supposed to be that way....
..... could they possably be sending the power through the gas hose ? like through the braded shielding ? .... if so that would mean it is fixed to one polarity..... the positive one I assume. if it is doing that, then I have no idea why it doesn't work..... something internal to the welder is broke !
.......
there are just 2 connections from the TIG torch.... not 3.....just 2 one connector for the switch on the handle and the Argon hose.... that's it.....
does that sound cosher to you guys ? ..... ( sounds fishy to me!) there is no Big polarity switchable plug in that should be there so you can plug in to either Positive or negative big terminals in the front...
.....
I don't even know if the hose IS braded but it could be under the cloth covering.... high pressure lines are commonly covered with a cloth but there is no need for a high pressure line there except to use the steel braiding as the electrical path to the torch.... so it is possible I guess !
....
..... I'm at a total loss here....
...
maybe the hose does have a braid but it is not connected correctly and therefore won't work.... that is a possibility!
.....
any suggestions ?
....
Bob..........

[DannoXYZ]

No high-pressure hose needed, you're looking at 5psi max...

Does it work for TIG in original as-designed configuration??? As in welding basic mild-steel 1st?
Post photo of front showing cables connection.

Does your welder have quick-release connectors on front like this?





Does it have ground cable like this?



Please post photos of your welder.

[DannoXYZ]

Post link to Amazon page for your welder.
Post photo of your TIG torche.

It should look like this with:
- removeable gas cap
- fat power connector
- smaller 2-line connector for button
- gas connector

[DannoXYZ]

They also make non-HF unit: https://www.amazon.com/TOOLIOM-Machi...dp/B09HZYV9J3/

Is this what you have?

In which case there's only 2 connections on torche, power and gas. Button on handle isn't switch, it's twist valve that just turns on/off gas flow.



It's possible you got non-HF torche with your HF unit. It would still work with scratch-start and can still reverse polarity.

Post photos of what you have!

[Bob KellyIII]

https://www.amazon.com/TOOLIOM-Volta...31058474&psc=1

there is the link.... I am almost positive that is the one I got. $169.99 I went to the amazon site and put in "Tooliom 200a TIG welder" and it came up...


the picture of the TIG torch with the Denim cover looks RIGHT.... but mine does not have the big quick connect lead... and there doesn't seem to be a way to hook one up to it !
....
and for some reason the link doesn't work ! Sigh
its the Tooliom 200a Tig welder , stick, tig ,duel voltage etc,etc.
....
I have tried to scratch start.... there is no voltage on the tunsten !


Bob....

[Bob KellyIII]

obviously the torch is missing the Red quick connect plug in that they even show in the video.... my torch doesn't have that !
....
Maybe I can contact the seller and have them send me one that works ?
...
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

Again, post photo of torche you actually have.

at this moment, we have no idea of what problem is because we can't understand thing you're talking about until you post some photos.

[Bob KellyIII]

Well, Sorry I can't .... it's all boxed up to be returned, I chatted with Amazon and she agreed that the thing was defective so instead of fighting with the company for another one, I'll get a refund.... a very fair arrangement in my book.
it was defective with no red plug in "quick connect" to the power on the torch
...everything else seemed to work but I guess they missed that on some of the units....( mine at least)
I'll get my Refund and look for another TIG welder so I can play with it
as I want to learn how to TIG weld... I would like to find a AC/DC unit but those are more expensive.... I do not want to go more than $250.00 for something I will hardly use.... this is not an essential tool for my shop, its a toy for me!
.....
thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it ! when I first got it out and going
I was totally clueless ! there is a steep learning curve with TIG welding
but sense I learned to weld with a Oxy/Accet torch and could do that very well, I thought I'd try to expand my horizons a bit (GRIN)
your never too old to learn !
....
Thanks guys !
Bob.......

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

... this is not an essential tool for my shop, its a toy for me!

Mine sure is an essential tool. Once I got a TIG welder in the 1980s, I rarely used gas or stick welding again. It's incredibly versatile.

but sense I learned to weld with a Oxy/Accet torch and could do that very well, I thought I'd try to expand my horizons a bit

If you can weld well with oxy-acetylene, you should be able to pick up TIG fairly easily. The only significant difference for me was the ability to adjust the heat real-time with the pedal or the slide on the torch. That is a big advantage, especially in a situation like welding to the edge of something. With the ability to adjust the current while welding, you can reduce it as you get to the edge and not worry about burning through.

[Bob KellyIII]

I am thinking about the harbor freight TIG Pro now..... it's alot more expensive
and getting Argon here is almost a no-go I have to go 75 miles to get a bottle
no one up here has ANY of any sort ! propane is the best they can do !
.... so that stumbling block (and it is a big one) may well squash this adventure in the budd !
.... I have a gut feeling I would use it all the time instead of stick welding
at least on medium and small stuff, it's hard to beat the weld of the stick welder on 1/2" plate and above !
....
but I hit a snag returning the TIG welder... Amazon sent me a QR code
however there is no UPS place up here ! I have to go all the way to Ashland ,OR. or back down to Redding to find a UPS office...
so I am going to contact Amazon and see if I can send it by USPS instead
we'll see I guess !
.....
Bob......

[dcj13]

Amazon carries argon (100% and various mixture with other gasses) for welding.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Amazon carries argon (100% and various mixture with other gasses) for welding.

Do you have to buy a full cylinder for several hundred bucks, or do they have an exchange deal to get a full one and return an empty one?

[DannoXYZ]

Looks like you buy bottle outright. Bonus that it comes filled with argon. To re-fill you'll have to exchange with someone locally.

[Bob KellyIII]

and to refill them they do not have a DOT number even though Amazon sayz they do.... so re filling is almost impossable here in the west... east coast they can get them re filled....
....but $235.00 for a one time full bottle that is filled with less pressure than standard.... seems kind'a steep to me for gas !
......although that WOULD work !!!!!
if I had an abundance of money I'ed just order 3 bottles and not worry about it
but I don't
....
.....According to Amazon the UPS truck will be by my door to pick up the welder in a day or 3 ....and I don't have to address it.... strange way to run a railroad!
i didn't know UPS did that !!!
the gal at Amazon just scheduled a pickup for me ! ... LOL
....
Bob........

[Bob KellyIII]

Now I am really confuzed ! I looked at several TIG welders a bit ago and almost all of the cheap ones came with a TIG Torch that had no heavy power cord plug in on them....
..... and that does NOT make sense ! the only thing I can figure is that the cheaper TIG welders made in China all buy their TIG torches from the same place and that place doesn't put on the heavy power cord because of the cost, the buyer is supposed to add it but I didn't see a single one that did !!!!! evedently they just get the package from the torch company and toss it in the box and they don't know it is supposed to have a power line for the torch..... at least 10 companies selling those small TIG units showed pictures of their coiled up tig torches and not a one had the power plug in on them !
...... THAT BOGGLES THE MIND !
..... You can't TIG weld if there is no power to the TIG torch tip ... the tungsten...
the Americana made units all $500 bucks and higher all showed their TIG torches and they had the power plug in the torch sheathing....
.....one thing for certain if I go to buy another I will make darn sure the torch has the power cable in it !!!!!
....
of course I could do what this old tony did on youtube, and just use my old Lincoln buzz box and hook a tig torch to it add a argon bottle and just scratch start !!!
I could weld Aluminum with it too as it is AC not DC
....
... Am I missing something here ? is there a new cheaper way they have to put power to the TIG torch than the traditional way ? it did say in the instructions that it would not work without a gas bottle hooked up.... maybe the electric power flows down the gas ?
.....
I tricked the unit I had by using compressed air to the flow meter so the relay would close.... but maybe I wasn't as smart as I thought I was and it needs the Argon gas to flow the electricity through !?!?! highly unlikely but possible !
....
I can't see how 10 manifacturers would screw up so bad as to mess up like that.
so maybe it is the hi frequency electricity will flow down the gas tube to make the Arc?
once it hits the all copper collet for the Tungsten it would continue to flow un abated I would think....
......
I dunno ....I am confused !
...
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

Bob, you're not making any sense. Post photos of torche without power connection. Or links to products you're talking about. Impossible that you were using previous welder for stick-welding, but can't for TIG.

Here's very simple-looking torche with power AND gas on single dinse connector.

https://www.amazon.com/17-1-Piece-Co...dp/B0BKR6828H/




here's video of combo power and gas connector. Power travels down braided conductor of torche.
https://www.amazon.com/vdp/0d608c432..._remD6QD4WdyVz

[DannoXYZ]

Here's another example of power + gas line. Note twist-on connector is metal? It connects to conductive braided layer in hose. Much like stainless-steel braided brake lines.



Stainless steel braided brake line. You can clamp jumper-cable on one connector to send power and it shows up at other end. Regardless of whatever fluid/gas you have going through insides.

[DannoXYZ]

Here's guide on configuring polarity on various welders. ANY welder can be configured for DCEN or DCEP by routing proper inverter output wires to torche connector on inside. Or you can rig up switch/relay to flip polarity.

https://www.mkproducts.com/support/M...ectorguide.pdf

[Bob KellyIII]

Sorry Jac I am having computer problems and am having a heck of a time posting pictures that this computer for some reason decided to not reconise as a picture but only a print file.... it seems windows 11 is helping and it no longer reconizes .png as a picture because it changed it's assoiation and you cannot change it back !
................
in your post #24 the tig torch has a gas line but that is all.... the torch I had was like that but with a little 2 wire switch wire and connector to screw into the foot peddle of the TIG welder....... but that is all..... no heavy #4 lead to plug into the positive post of the welder or switch polarity with.... there is no way it can work like that ! because the torch is not connected to the power of the welder !
maybe they expect you to add that power cable, but I do not see how you can as there is no way to connect it to the gun/torch to get the power to the torch for the ARC to be there.
....I could see how they could use the braided outside cable of a brake line to get the power to the torch but you still have to plug it in with a quick connect plug that you can swap for polarity changing..... there was no plug to swap polarity on the torch at all !
and the gas hose was not braided...I checked..... so they simply screwed up !
....
but how can 10 manufacturers make the same stupid mistake ? I would say 99% of the ones I looked at had the same torch.....with no power connector !
....
Bob....

[Bob KellyIII]

it's Possable that the power is directly connected to the gas line inside the machine where
I couldn't see it..... but the hose on the torch was not braided line. and if they did that you could not change polarity at all.
.....
anyway I sent the TIG welder back and Amazon has already said they refunded the money.... so I should be all set to get another one. ....one that hopefully works !
...
...Bob......

[Bob KellyIII]

here is a Pic. of a typical TIG torch offered by the cheepo TIG welders mostly from China I guess......
you'll notice that the Stick welding "stinger" has a plug in for the power on both the ground clamp and the "stinger" that holds the welding rod.... but look at the TIG torch closely there is a rubber covered hose connector for the gas but there is no plug in for the power...... that is what I am on about !
the TIG welder is not going to work without power going to the tungsten!
the torch has the hose connection and the wire connector for the switch but no power connector for the electricity to get to the torch !
....and 99% of all the cheaper TIG welders are like that.... anyone that buys one will find their TIG welder will not work because the tig torch doesn't have a plug in.....
that was my problem

I even took the TIG torch apart and looked for a way to connect the "stinger" wire to the torch..... but there is no way to connect it to the torch it is all sealed up to hold in the Argon gas and no provisions for a wire to get to the collet that holds the tungsten

how can 10 sellers make the same mistake ? simple their all resellers and just buy the same torch not knowing the torch doesn't work with the machine..... so I am looking for one that is knowledgeable about TIG welding that buys the right Torch for the TIG welder.... so far no luck it seems they are all just out for a quick buck and have no idea what they are doing.
unfortunately !!!!
................
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

The hose to the torch is also the cable that carries welding current, whether it looks braided or not. Mine is like that, and every other TIG machine I've seen and/or used is like that. The big ones even have water flowing around the cable and through the torch to keep them cool while carrying currents like 300 amps, so you can have a nice, lightweight cable and torch when doing big welding jobs.

Reverse polarity is normally done with controls on the machine, but I don't know if all cheap machines provide that feature.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

in your post #24 the tig torch has a gas line but that is all.... the torch I had was like that but with a little 2 wire switch wire and connector to screw into the foot peddle of the TIG welder....... but that is all..... no heavy #4 lead to plug into the positive post of the welder or switch polarity with.... there is no way it can work like that ! because the torch is not connected to the power of the welder !

You're not getting it...Let's break this down into individual steps...

1. take this hose



2. touch one end of it to car battery's +pos terminal

3. touch other end to car battery's -neg terminal

What do you think will happen??

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL Yes I get that but the torch hose was not a metal braided hose
"I CHECKED"
besides, if they did that, you wouldn't be able to change polarity !
....
I understand YOU COULD run the power through the braid of the hose
.... but that is not what is going on here.... braided hoses are expensive !
they simply do not have a power plug in on many of the smaller TIG welders
so they ain't going to work
....
I did find one that looks promising it's a dc TIG welder with stick welding capabilities. that is close to $250.00 that shows the torch that does have the power plug in for the torch.... I think it was AMECO but not sure ....
I'll find the bookmark and show it to ya.
....
Bob

[Bob KellyIII]

I think this is the one a VEVOR by brand $199.00
https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-210Amp-...08CVSZ3CZ?th=1
....
I dunno maybe it was the ARCCAPTIN one I was looking at both the same price but the VEVOR didn't show the torch and a reviewer of the ARCCAPTIN showed the torch and it had the plug on the torch
who knows
I hope the link works for you but it doesn't for me as my computer has internal programs that are not working ....
...
Bob

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

LOL Yes I get that but the torch hose was not a metal braided hose
"I CHECKED"
besides, if they did that, you wouldn't be able to change polarity !
....
I understand YOU COULD run the power through the braid of the hose
.... but that is not what is going on here.... braided hoses are expensive !
they simply do not have a power plug in on many of the smaller TIG welders
so they ain't going to work

You're skipping ahead... So... after you shorted brake hose to battery and generated shower of sparks... let's say you do this...

4a. Wrapped entire outside of hose with electrical tape. Except for 1mm from end. What would it look like

4b. or wrapped hose with some sleeving: https://www.cabletiesandmore.com/ins...u-fit-sleeving

5. touch one end of it to car battery's +pos terminal

6. touch other end to car battery's -neg terminal

What do you think will happen??

[Bob KellyIII]

same thing ...a shower of sparks the power still gets through.
....
Bob

[DannoXYZ]

So braid-brake hose act like battery-cable and conducts power from one end to other?
If you were to measure resistance end-to-end, would you find connectivity between 2 ends?




Now, let's take closer look at this torche:



From video I posted earlier:
https://www.amazon.com/vdp/0d608c432..._remD6QD4WdyVz

Little more than 1/2 way through, you'll see same rubber-coated end of torche hose:



And he pulls it out and shows you end... METAL!!!




What do you think chances are that if you were to measure resistance between connector end of that cable and collet holder, that there would be continuity?

Here's close-up of that Vevor welder you linked to:


What material is connector that "TIG Torch" connects to? Why would that be? What's that hole in centre for?

You never answered this question:

Did you ever connected TIG torche to your welder and used it for regular steel welding???

[Bob KellyIII]

OK I understand your point but my torch was not like that I took it apart and looked... I did not put a VTOM on it so looks could have been deceiving
so it's possible it was just the wrong torch for the Welder, one of the shielded cable type torches when one with the heavy Switchable cables for the torch type was needed.... that is quite possible !

....
but that would mean that the TOOLIOM Tig welder that I got would Not be able to switch polarities.....( because the positive power would be going through the torch hose and you can't switch polarities if it is Hard wired)... which would suck big time and a good enough reason to return it in and of itself .... but never the less I did try to strike up an arc with it and it just clicked when the button was pressed.... I even tried to scratch start it but there wasn't even a tiny spark from the tungsten.
so at any rate, it didn't work , so I sent it back...
.....

So they do USE that type of shielded cable torch on some machines ?
that has got to be a bad thing ! because unless there is a big switch on the machine you will not be able to switch polarities with a machine like that
so trying to save money they destroy the capabilities of the machine....not the first time tool makers have done that !
....(and I tried to watch that video, but my computer just blinks...it's missing a function to follow the links for some reason!)
Bob....

[DannoXYZ]

Here's manual for Vevor welder you linked to above:

https://d2v0huudrf11kh.cloudfront.ne...3206282001.pdf

Go to Page-6 - CONNECT WIRING
Read entire Section 2 - Connection of output cable

What does "gas-electric integrated connector mean"???

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

OK I understand your point but my torch was not like that I took it apart and looked... I did not put a VTOM on it so looks could have been deceiving
so it's possible it was just the wrong torch for the Welder, one of the shielded cable type torches when one with the heavy Switchable cables for the torch type was needed.... that is quite possible !

....

These TIG welders use newer more convenient "foolproof" connectors. You wouldn't believe how many people don't understand DCEN vs. DCEP. This combo hose simplifies torche connection. You weren't able to find any wires because conductor is integrated into housing braid of hose, just like those brake hoses. This means it IS NOT switchable for polarity. To do that you need to take box apart and swap output wires where they connect to internal side of connectors.

Or you can get one of these adapters that splits power and gas connections so you can pick which polarity to select for torche.

[DannoXYZ]

Here's manual for your Tooliom welder. It definitely uses integrated gas-electric torche.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HOM...y6fiiTVnN/view

Problem in this case was you watched Youtube videos and got ideas in your head that didn't match reality!!

Youtube is full of spoiled brat idiots!! DO NOT believe ANYTHING you see on Youtube. It's for entertainment only!!!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

but that would mean that the TOOLIOM Tig welder that I got would Not be able to switch polarities.....( because the positive power would be going through the torch hose and you can't switch polarities if it is Hard wired)... which would suck big time and a good enough reason to return it in and of itself .... but never the less I did try to strike up an arc with it and it just clicked when the button was pressed.... I even tried to scratch start it but there wasn't even a tiny spark from the tungsten.
so at any rate, it didn't work , so I sent it back...

That's the problem!!! You got wrong ideas from YouTube!!!

Default stick-welding is done with DCEP - electrode positive. Connect stick-holder to red terminal on welder and connect ground-clamp to black terminal.

Default TIG welding configuration is DCEN - electrode -negative. The combo gas-electric TIG torche is connected to negative black terminal internally in welder. Then ground-clamp is connected to red terminal.


You didn't swap ground-clamp from black terminal to red terminal when you switched from stick to TIG welding did you? Aiming -neg torche electrode to -neg workpiece would result in ZERO current flowing because there's no voltage-differential.