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Old August 12th, 2021, 06:19 PM   #1
Topaz
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Valve emulators, Are they worth for a track only bike?

@thedrewski86, @jjmaine

After reading this article from Race Tech:

https://www.racetech.com/page/title/...%20They%20Work

I got this: (correct me if I'm wrong)
I can tune slow compression by changing the forks oil only and not install emulators.
Emulators will allow me to tune slow compression without changing the oil.
Emulators will allow me to tune fast compression.
Slow compression occurs when you brake and lean.
Fast compression occurs when you hit a hole.

If the above is correct, and your track doesn't have significant pot holes, are emulators any useful in a track only ninjette?

I know it's a popular mod at the track. What am I missing?
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Old August 13th, 2021, 07:52 AM   #2
thedrewski86
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I cannot get into suspension the way some internet folks can, I simply don't have the time (knowledge) to talk about the various wizardry that goes into this but I can speak to it a little:

I've been running RT's emulators on my SV for quite a while now (on the street) and I can say that the predictability of slow and fast damping has improved. I only ride fast, local canyons and they are quite pot-holed. In fact, I have hit some that nearly killed me (I have a set of broken wheels in my garage from one experience!) so I needed to improve my setup. The quality of rebound control is much better with the emulators vs the damper rods. The function of a damper rod involves the passing of oil through two different circuits of holes in the rod itself, as I'm sure you are aware. The emulator eliminates this system and replaces it with a spring-loaded valve that allows for a more evenly controlled flow of oil (which can also be "tuned" with different plates/springs/etc).

Now, how this is tuned relative to slow/fast rebound and all the nuances involved gets hairy, and I have simply found what works for me and went with it. I needed an improvement because my route is very rough and I was increasing my pace. I read tire wear to know how I'm doing (as well as the zip-tie on the forks to measure travel) and I feel much better with where I'm at now as opposed to stock form. I see your point re. the need for emulators on the track... in fact I will be holding off on this mod with the Ninja until I feel I need it, because if it's mostly being ridden on a smooth track I feel the damper rods may suffice. However, I suspect that the quality of damping will still suffer and I will probably do something to fix that. Emulators also help control brake dive, which can make the suspension react similar to a pothole.

This reminds me of upgrading my master cylinder some time back to a Brembo: sure my braking power increased somewhat, but that wasn't the main advantage. The progression in the lever was far superior to the Nissin mc's wooden feel. As a result, I had much more finesse in my braking and could throw the bike into a corner with more confidence. The same thing happened when I installed emulators.
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Old August 14th, 2021, 10:03 AM   #3
jjmaine
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I don't know near enough about suspension to give any advice. That's why I love these forums, I look at what everybody else uses and their settings etc. so I can adapt it for my weight/riding style.

I have one thing going for me also, I ride like an old granny on my way to Sunday night Bingo. I don't ask much from my suspension, just that it doesn't try to kill me every time I hit a bump.
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Old August 14th, 2021, 01:00 PM   #4
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If I remember correctly there is a member here @InvisiBill whom was very good at that.

Personal I went with in my 07 EX500 and 98 Ninja 250, a pair of RICOR INTIMINATORS. I'm very pleased with them,

https://www.ricorshocks.com/product-page/intiminators
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Old August 16th, 2021, 04:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
After reading this article from Race Tech:

https://www.racetech.com/page/title/...%20They%20Work

I got this: (correct me if I'm wrong)
I can tune slow compression by changing the forks oil only and not install emulators.
Emulators will allow me to tune slow compression without changing the oil.
Emulators will allow me to tune fast compression.
Slow compression occurs when you brake and lean.
Fast compression occurs when you hit a hole.

If the above is correct, and your track doesn't have significant pot holes, are emulators any useful in a track only ninjette?

I know it's a popular mod at the track. What am I missing?
Emulators do not allow you to tune low-speed compression without changing the oil.

Quote:
With the Emulator installed on top of the damping rod, low-speed damping is controlled by low-speed bleed hole(s) in the valve piston (see figure 3.15). Oil flows unrestricted from chamber A to the inside of the damping rod, then up toward chamber C. At the lowest velocities there is not enough pressure to open the main valve piston and all the oil goes through the Emulator’s low-speed bleed hole.
You're basically just moving the compression holes from the stock damper rod to the Emulator body. It's still just a fixed orifice damping setup, where it's perfect at one point, and too soft for anything slower and too hard for anything faster.

You can tune the high-speed damping via the spring on the Emulator's valve. The spring rate and preload affect how the valve opens (just like the rate and preload of your fork and shock springs affect how the bike's suspension moves). Since the valve acts as an overflow of sorts for bigger bumps, the simple damping hole needs to cover less of a range of suspension action, so it's less of a compromise; it's only covering half of the range whereas the stock damper rod holes have to cover the full range.

I tend to agree with you that the design lends itself better to street riding with rough roads than to riding on a smooth(ish) track. It does give you two different ways to adjust the damping (the bleed hole and the valve), so it's adding more tuning ability to your suspension.


I originally purchased Emulators for my 500, but when I found out about Intiminators, I sold the Emulators without ever installing them. I bought them for my 400 too, but haven't gotten around to installing them yet. On a very basic level, they're similar to Emulators, but I feel they're a more high-tech solution. Instead of replicating the damper hole, they use a shim stack like actual cartridge forks. You can tune the compression by using a different number or thickness of shims. Their "overflow valve" isn't just spring-loaded, it's held up with a tiny spring and uses the inertia of the cover piece to open. When the chassis pushes down (cornering forces, etc.), the whole Intiminator is pushed downward. When the wheel bumps up (hitting a pothole, etc.), the inertia of the cover causes it to stay put while the center of the Intiminator moves up, exposing the holes and allowing the oil to flow through. Oversimplifying, the chassis pushing down will never open the big valve, and the wheel bumping up will always open it. You get great pothole mitigation without sacrificing any chassis firmness for hard riding. In comparison, the Emulator's valve will open any time there's enough pressure to overcome the spring (which admittedly probably shouldn't happen from the chassis forces, if it's tuned properly).

Again, I think the concept is much more suited for rough roads than for tracks. However, it's a fairly cheap and easy way to get pseudo-cartridges for your cheap little forks. A number of people have found them to be a huge improvement, for both street and track riding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Yea! Very much. They were a noticeable improvement at the track. I could feel way more and the brake dive was definitely reduced. Tire wear looks really good after 2 days on track.

Worth the time. Could maybe have the shim stack changed a bit, but huge improvement considering how little effort the install took.

I'm sure there are more people familiar with tuning Emulators than Intiminators, if you're looking to really tweak them to perfection. Even if Emulators aren't quite as good as Intiminators theoretically, perfectly tuned Emulators could be better overall than poorly tuned Intiminators (though most people find Intiminators to work very well without any tuning whatsoever).

Pregen Ricor Intiminator install has a lot of Intiminator-related info.
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Old August 16th, 2021, 06:23 PM   #6
Topaz
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^^ Thank you very much for the comments, guys!
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