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Old March 12th, 2012, 06:11 AM   #1
sendler
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Hypermiling

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Originally Posted by NDspd View Post
How in the world do you manage that??? I try riding as conservatively as possible and the best I can get is 52.
Lots of people break 60 on their Ninja. I don't use any advanced hypermiling techniques such as Pulse and Glide (PnG) or Engine Off Coasting (EOC) on my motorcycles. Just a comfortable tuck with minimal use of the brakes (DWB) and never use engine braking. Accelerate using the engine in it's range of best efficiency which will be 90% load, 1.5 inches of manifold vacuum. Heavy throttle. Shift either side of a point just below the first torque peak. Center your revs on 6,500. But stay well above 4,000 as the Ninja has a pronounced suck out at that rpm. Every engine has the best Base Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) at 90% load (load, not throttle) at an rpm band just under the first torque peak. Finish your acceleration quickly and then go right into a light cruise in 6th. Time the lights. ect.
.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hyperm...ecodriving.php
.
Longer gearing and aero improvements can get a 100 mph solo motorcycle over 100 mpgUS. We will all be begging for one of these when gas is $12/ gallon 20 years from now.
.
http://craigvetter.com/pages/2012-St...liner-p56.html
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Old March 12th, 2012, 07:51 AM   #2
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Have you seen this thread yet? We have a member who's working on maximizing the fuel economy of his ninjette for fuel economy competitions.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 09:05 AM   #3
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Excellent advice from Sendler, who is an accomplished motorcycle hypermiler in his own right. It's been great to see him on this forum, even though he jumped ship to the Honda CBR250 camp, he continues to share his knowledge and experience with others interested in maximizing their fuel economy.

When I first got my Ninja I had assumed that it would get around 70 mpg pretty consistently. After my baseline testing in stock configuration I found that was not the case; with some effort I broke 70 mpg and my lowest tankfill was 59 mpg. I agree with Sendler that average fuel economy in the
60+mpg is a realistic goal with efficient riding techniques. With my streamlining and gearing mods I'm now averaging over 80 mpg with a best tankfill of 104 mpg. While the Ninja 250 is not the absolute best starting point for a Vetter Challenge bike it offers great performance at low price due to their large numbers in the used market. Where else could you get a $700 motorcycle, spend another $30 and some sweat equity and have a 100mpg + bike that can go 70 mph into a 30 mph wind, carry 4 bags of groceries and still be a blast to ride?
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Old March 12th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #4
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I need to do the interview I promised with my friend and hypermiling great, Alan Smith.
He has developed the best Ninja 250 streamliner to date ( 116 MPG ) and he is a storehouse of knowledge on motrocycle fuel efficviency.

Last futzed with by greenaero; March 12th, 2012 at 08:03 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #5
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Vic, Allen, and Craig are "Da Man" with their DIY streamliners. This is the way of the future. I was out running around today on my bike and wishing for a big, lockable aero trunk if nothing more than to lock up my helmet, jacket, and gloves. How big that Tourmaster elite jacket is to carry around in stores with all three layers together. The streamliner motorcycle is ecomodding at it's best where fuel economy improvements of %40 are possible while at the same time gaining useful luggage space like no bike had before.

Last futzed with by sendler; March 12th, 2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 08:02 PM   #6
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Thanks Scott! The storage capacity of the new large tailsection is amazing; I loaded a week's worth of groceries last week, took my large, oldtech laptop and bag to a presentation today , always easy storage for helmet,gloves, jacket and raingear. Hopefully I can run out this tank before some rainy weather hits us again. The 15/33 gearing combo is working well.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #7
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As ugly as they look, they seem to have a lot of functionality. Storage space is always something I find lacking on my bike. Of course getting better mileage is a plus too.

I also have to add...it's amazing how much people have started focusing on fuel economy after last summer. With gas around $4, a lot more people I know have started to take fuel economy more seriously. I have convinced a number of my friends to make fuellys and start tracking their MPGs.

When people actually see staticstics on how much they are paying they actually start moving towards doing something about it.
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Old March 13th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #8
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Etiainen,
Measurement is the first step toward improvement, its good you're encouraging them to monitor their fuel comsumption. Once people see the actual amount of fuel they use, many began to pay attention to the details that waste fuel: unneeded trips, excessive idling, excessive speed, low tire pressures, etc. Actually I thought there was a much bigger reaction during our last fuel price spike to over $4/gal. Then people were dumping their trucks and SUVs and buying motor scooters and bicycles. Not as manic a reaction this time.
As far as looks, I'm into function over form and my streamliners put a big smile on my face at the gas pump.
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Old March 13th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Lots of people break 60 on their Ninja. I don't use any advanced hypermiling techniques such as Pulse and Glide (PnG) or Engine Off Coasting (EOC) on my motorcycles. Just a comfortable tuck with minimal use of the brakes (DWB) and never use engine braking. Accelerate using the engine in it's range of best efficiency which will be 90% load, 1.5 inches of manifold vacuum. Heavy throttle. Shift either side of a point just below the first torque peak. Center your revs on 6,500. But stay well above 4,000 as the Ninja has a pronounced suck out at that rpm. Every engine has the best Base Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) at 90% load (load, not throttle) at an rpm band just under the first torque peak. Finish your acceleration quickly and then go right into a light cruise in 6th. Time the lights. ect.
.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hyperm...ecodriving.php
.
Longer gearing and aero improvements can get a 100 mph solo motorcycle over 100 mpgUS. We will all be begging for one of these when gas is $12/ gallon 20 years from now.
.
http://craigvetter.com/pages/2012-St...liner-p56.html

Or, instead of all that work to get 60mpg, you could have fun, ride the crap out of it, and 'only' get 55mpg...
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Old March 13th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #10
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Hypermiling is the new form of street competition. Safer and greener than street racing and just as technical and techniquel.
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Old March 13th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #11
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That's so awesome! Gas is no longer a cost =p
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Old March 13th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Or, instead of all that work to get 60mpg, you could have fun, ride the crap out of it, and 'only' get 55mpg...
Or you could ride efficiently, mod your bike, get 100 mpg and have fun
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Old March 13th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Or you could ride efficiently, mod your bike, get 100 mpg and have fun
That would be loads of fun, in it's own way. However, as a 19 year-old enthusiast, I prefer the instant gratification out of enjoying a high performance screaming parallel twin


I still follow your progress with interest. I think what you're doing with the aerodynamics is very cool. I want to learn more about how fluids act. I just have to wait a year or so for that class
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Old March 14th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #14
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Looks like most of the canyon racers that clicked on the links are in shock after seeing what Allen did to their beloved Ninja. You don't have to mod the bike just to hypermile once in a while. No interest?
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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:23 PM   #15
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Or you could ride efficiently, mod your bike, get 100 mpg and have fun
How is "riding efficiently" (i.e. holding up traffic, planning every red light, overthinking everything, etc) fun?
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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #16
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I ride the hell out of my Ninjette especially when the roads are clear and I'm at the front of a stoplight. However, it would be nice to how to maximize mileage when there is a bit of traffic.

From what you found, when do you shift and how much throttle do you put in? Is it more efficient to WOT and shift low?
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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #17
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How is "riding efficiently" (i.e. holding up traffic, planning every red light, overthinking everything, etc) fun?
Hypermiling is fun for me because I can CRUSH your best fuel economy numbers.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Or you could ride efficiently, mod your bike, get 100 mpg and have fun
Fun is a very relative term. All depends on what you're looking for and what keeps you entertained.

It can be anything from this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liist View Post
I ride the hell out of my Ninjette especially when the roads are clear
to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Hypermiling is fun for me because I can CRUSH your best fuel economy numbers.
both are certainly fun in their own manner. It just depends on the person. I've done my share of criticizing the hypermilers on these forums, I'll be the first to admit it as well. But it is pretty cool that we can get 100mpg from a pretty much stock jetted bike and it's a totally different approach than the typical "oh I'll turn the engine off and coast to boost my numbers" approach.

While mileage isn't the concern of many of us who are riding a sport bike for it's sporting abilities, it is definitely a good thing to know more about for when gas prices goes up even more. Hypermiling techniques apply to any vehicle.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Hypermiling is fun for me because I can CRUSH your best fuel economy numbers.
I bet I know someone who makes your numbers look like child's play...Champ.

http://craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/...20winners.html

I know the Charly's son's, we used to race together. I hear his son won one of the challenges last year at Mid-Ohio...
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Old March 14th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #20
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I am looking for some hypermile tips on my 250.

I am still on my first tank of gas since purchasing, which is good, but I want to know what's the best may to extend the mileage on these babies.

Currently I do the following:
1) Double Shift to a higher gear. Start at 1, shift to 3, shift to 5 and then 6th.
2) Cruise at 6th when I am traveling 30MPH or more.
3) Pull clutch in when coasting, never use any engine braking.

Killing the engine when coasting is something I may eventually do, but once I am more experienced on the bike.

In regards to the OP, I frequently find myself coasting at 4000RPM in 6th. Is this consuming more fuel than a higher RPM in 5th gear?

I am an avid hypermiler with my 06 xB. I get about 30% higher than EPA estimates for city conditions. I bought a 250 to save gas, and I wanna ensure I get the most from every drop of fuel.

And one thing that seems so baffling is that I am consistently hitting 8K RPM in 6th when cruising above 45 MPH or so. I dont see how it is remotely possible to get 60MPG with an engine working that hard!!! Seems ridiculous to me. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cliff0529 View Post
I bet I know someone who makes your numbers look like child's play...Champ.

http://craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/...20winners.html

I know the Charly's son's, we used to race together. I hear his son won one of the challenges last year at Mid-Ohio...
Aren't those mostly smaller displacement bikes? Doesn't the current competition require faster speeds?

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...o-results.html

Seems a tad different now. The lower displacements are gone.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #22
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How is "riding efficiently" (i.e. holding up traffic, planning every red light, overthinking everything, etc) fun?
Why would someone be holding up traffic by riding efficiently?
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Old March 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #23
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Let's see...
Reswob, I don't hold up traffic, I ride at the speed limit and move to right if someone wants to speed past me. I don't do much planning, I just leave space in front of me and look far ahead so I can slow without breaking when I see a red traffic signal or other obstacle. The fun part comes when you keep passing the same people that continued to accelerate and then be forced to stop. It's really very simple, accelerate usung moderate acceleration (1/4 to 1/2 throttle ) to quickly get to your target speed, then maintain it using the tallest gearing that your bike can handle, then avoid stops and slow downs if possible. Hypermiling isn't always about going slow: I corner hard to maintain my momemtum and let my bike coast downhill as high as fast as is safe and legal.

Cliff, Yes Max and Charlie Perethian are 2 of the best motorcycle hypermilers. Max won the 2011 Ohio Vetter Challenge with ~157 mpg, the best result so far in the new Vetter Challenges. Charlie won at the older Vetter fuel economy challenges in 1982 and 1983 with a best of 372 mpg. I hope to meet them in Ohio this year.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Looks like most of the canyon racers that clicked on the links are in shock after seeing what Allen did to their beloved Ninja. You don't have to mod the bike just to hypermile once in a while. No interest?
The one thing I like about the Vetter hypermilage Ninja 250 project is that a combination of Craig Vetter's tail piece and a Vic Valdes / Alan Smith style front end is reversible with not much effort. Take the hypermilage fairing stuff off, put the stock body work back on, revert the gearing and voilà - stock Ninja 250 for 50 mpg canyon carving

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Old March 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #25
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Ajcadoo, Good job! You are doing a lot of the right things to get good fuel economy. I wouldn't upshift 2 gears at a times, I would just accelerate to 5-6K rpms then upshift quickly to my target speed. The stock Ninja is very short geared so a hypermiler will spend a lot time cruising in 6th gear. For me to break 100mpg, I changed my sprockets to get taller gearing, going from stock 14/45 to 15/41 and now up to 15/33. Lower rpms = better fuel economy unless you are lugging the engine .
Be careful about very long EOCs ( engine-off coasting) as the Ninja's transmission is pressure lubricated. Short EOCs should be no problem.
Liist, see above, shift at 5-6K, using 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, avoiding WOT for best fuel economy.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #26
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Aren't those mostly smaller displacement bikes? Doesn't the current competition require faster speeds?

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...o-results.html

Seems a tad different now. The lower displacements are gone.
Etiainen, Correct, the 80's Vetter fuel economy competitions were in the 55mph national speed limit era so very small bikes could be used to reach the speed limit. The winners were also tiny, uncomfortable and impractical for daily use. The current Vetter Challenge requires motorcycles that can go 70mph into a 30 mph headwind, carry 4 bags of groceries and get 100 mpg. Craig Vetter's research indicates that at least 16 HP is needed so that is why most of the competitve gasoline- powered bikes are around 250cc displacement .
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Old March 14th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etiainen View Post
Aren't those mostly smaller displacement bikes? Doesn't the current competition require faster speeds?

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...o-results.html

Seems a tad different now. The lower displacements are gone.
Charly's bike from the 80's was a 185, not significantly smaller than the ninjette. Max's bike from last year was a NX250 that makes power similar to the CBR250. It was not significantly streamlined, a modified dustbin fairing with no teardrop tail.

Thats the bike he did 157mpg:


Imagine what they could do if they streamlined it a bit more.

Really, I just wanted to show that no matter how good you are, there's always someone that's chasing you or better than you. So making statements like "I can CRUSH your fuel economy numbers" is ridiculous! FWIW, I too got beat by Max many a times, both in the dirt and on the road. LOL!

I love reading these threads, as I find people pushing the limits whether it be speed, HP, MPG or laptimes to be fascinating.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #28
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I bet I know someone who makes your numbers look like child's play...Champ.

http://craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/...20winners.html

I know the Charly's son's, we used to race together. I hear his son won one of the challenges last year at Mid-Ohio...
I do ok for a stock bike in everyday rush hour commuting...Cap'n.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #29
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Etiainen, Correct, the 80's Vetter fuel economy competitions were in the 55mph national speed limit era so very small bikes could be used to reach the speed limit. The winners were also tiny, uncomfortable and impractical for daily use. The current Vetter Challenge requires motorcycles that can go 70mph into a 30 mph headwind, carry 4 bags of groceries and get 100 mpg. Craig Vetter's research indicates that at least 16 HP is needed so that is why most of the competitve gasoline- powered bikes are around 250cc displacement .
Ok, that makes sense then. Seems like a good idea to use more practical competition terms.

I wish I had time for aero mods. But college just won't end
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Old March 14th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #30
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I do ok for a stock bike in everyday rush hour commuting...Cap'n.
.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r
Okay, the Cap'n thing got me.

Seriously though, last time we took our little 85 Rebel out for a spin, it got similar mileage. It's amazing what little engines are capable of.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #31
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Seriously though, last time we took our little 85 Rebel out for a spin, it got similar mileage.
Can the Rebel do 87 mpgUS in 70 mph highway traffic with wind and rain?
I don't mean to come off like a know it all. When the other guy asked how hypermiling could be fun, I answered competitively with my tongue in cheek to show that the competition is the fun. Just like racing where you are always trying to improve compared to the other riders only you do this safely on the street even if your competitor is on another continent. And you do it every time you turn the key. Technical and techniquel.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #32
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Ajcadoo, Good job! You are doing a lot of the right things to get good fuel economy. I wouldn't upshift 2 gears at a times, I would just accelerate to 5-6K rpms then upshift quickly to my target speed. The stock Ninja is very short geared so a hypermiler will spend a lot time cruising in 6th gear. For me to break 100mpg, I changed my sprockets to get taller gearing, going from stock 14/45 to 15/41 and now up to 15/33. Lower rpms = better fuel economy unless you are lugging the engine .
Be careful about very long EOCs ( engine-off coasting) as the Ninja's transmission is pressure lubricated. Short EOCs should be no problem.
Liist, see above, shift at 5-6K, using 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, avoiding WOT for best fuel economy.
Do you think a 15/45 Sprocket setup increase the MPGs at all?

So is 4K RPM too low? I cruise at 4K RPM in 6th gear often.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #33
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Lol my bikes gone up from 43mpg to 48mpg (guessing change to spring/summer gas mixture) and I'm excited about that, yall are crazy! But I honestly find this pretty awesome
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Old March 14th, 2012, 11:32 PM   #34
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Do you think a 15/45 Sprocket setup increase the MPGs at all?

So is 4K RPM too low? I cruise at 4K RPM in 6th gear often.
It will help but you can higher as long as you are willing to give up some quickness. 4000 rpm in 6th is fine as long as your not lugging the motor.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #35
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I am looking for some hypermile tips on my 250.
I am still on my first tank of gas since purchasing, which is good, but I want to know what's the best may to extend the mileage on these babies.
I bought a 250 to save gas, and I wanna ensure I get the most from every drop of fuel.
Good for you! Maybe we can get a sub forum. Eco Ninjette. Read through the tips at Ecomodders. I posted the link above. The Ninja needs longer gearing for sure. Check out Gearing Commander.
.
http://www.gearingcommander.com/
.
Accelerate using 90% load and shift at 7,000 rpm.
When you get to the speed you want, skip the rest of the gears and go right to 6th for a light cruise.
Drop down gears to 5,000 rpm if you need to accelerate again.
Coast with the clutch in and avoid using the brakes. Every time you touch the brakes, you are wasting gas.
I am experimenting with some Pulse and Glide this tank to replace much of the light cruising. I will know how I did when I fill up tonight.
Your engine in the Ninja is most efficient at high load and 6,000 rpm. Maybe around 30% of the fuel you burn is making forward motion. Cruising with light throttle at 9,000 rpm in a low gear like most sport riders do before gunning it up to the next red light only to blip back down through all the gears while slamming on the brakes, the engine is at 10% efficiency.
Pulse in the 30% range and glide up to the light or stop sign. On the highway, I am getting a 1:2 PnG ratio so I am expecting one of my best tank averages this time even though it has been below 30F both mornings which robs heat energy from the engine breathing cold air, and I had to put the very un aero grip muffs back on to save my fingers.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #36
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15/ 37 gearing should still be pretty rideable not to stall out on hills with some prctice and will drop your 69 mph highway cruise to the high efficiency range of 6,500 rpm. 38, or 39 if you can't find a 37T steel rear sprocket
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Old March 15th, 2012, 07:22 PM   #37
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159.5 miles/ 1.789 gallonsUS = 89.2 for my Honda on my usual 68 mph highway commute.
First tank ever while playing with full on Pulse and Glide. Very cold both mornings at 25F. I put the grip muffs back on the second morning after getting dangerously cold fingers the first. So one leg of four had the extra drag of the mitts. And the cold air robs some heat energy from the combustion. I should get better with warmer weather. Full on PnG only added 10%? A little disappointing. I must need to fine tune the throttle opening that I am using to find the best trade off between power vs. fuel consumption. I thought PnG would do more. Maybe I am dipping into a "richer for safety" part of the fuel injection program at 90% throttle. I wasn't quite able to get a 1:2 PnG ratio either.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #38
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Maybe I am dipping into a "richer for safety" part of the fuel injection program at 90% throttle. I wasn't quite able to get a 1:2 PnG ratio either.
Powercommander. Dyno run. Get it right at 14.5 or so at the top end to help yourself out a little.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #39
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This seems like the place to offer it: I'm taking off a low-mileage 38T rear if anyone wants it. Pretty much only used for a trip from San Diego, CA to Newnan, GA ('bout 2,100 easy-going miles), but I already needed a new chain and sprockets so I'm going back to 15:41.

Edit: Found that the chain was missing several rollers. It didn't have the chance to ruin this sprocket like my last one with my last chain with the same problem, but I wouldn't trust it.

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Old March 19th, 2012, 05:16 AM   #40
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Slow down to save fuel. My numbers go up another 5-10% when I reduce my speed from 68 mph to 50 mph. Of course you have to keep up with the average of traffic but on the deserted back country roads the speed limits are only 55 mph and most people drive 50 mph where I am as it is still busy with driveways and dogs. One round trip to work in cold weather and one day of riding back roads at 50 mph with my daughter on her Ninja in 70F temps. The lower speed helps my FE number. Still playing with PnG with lighter throttle openings. 133.6 miles / 1.425 gallonsUS = 93.7 mpgUS
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