March 12th, 2012, 06:11 AM | #1 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Hypermiling
Quote:
. http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hyperm...ecodriving.php . Longer gearing and aero improvements can get a 100 mph solo motorcycle over 100 mpgUS. We will all be begging for one of these when gas is $12/ gallon 20 years from now. . http://craigvetter.com/pages/2012-St...liner-p56.html |
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March 12th, 2012, 07:51 AM | #2 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE, '15 CRF110F, '13 TT-R50E Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
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Have you seen this thread yet? We have a member who's working on maximizing the fuel economy of his ninjette for fuel economy competitions.
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March 12th, 2012, 09:05 AM | #3 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Excellent advice from Sendler, who is an accomplished motorcycle hypermiler in his own right. It's been great to see him on this forum, even though he jumped ship to the Honda CBR250 camp, he continues to share his knowledge and experience with others interested in maximizing their fuel economy.
When I first got my Ninja I had assumed that it would get around 70 mpg pretty consistently. After my baseline testing in stock configuration I found that was not the case; with some effort I broke 70 mpg and my lowest tankfill was 59 mpg. I agree with Sendler that average fuel economy in the 60+mpg is a realistic goal with efficient riding techniques. With my streamlining and gearing mods I'm now averaging over 80 mpg with a best tankfill of 104 mpg. While the Ninja 250 is not the absolute best starting point for a Vetter Challenge bike it offers great performance at low price due to their large numbers in the used market. Where else could you get a $700 motorcycle, spend another $30 and some sweat equity and have a 100mpg + bike that can go 70 mph into a 30 mph wind, carry 4 bags of groceries and still be a blast to ride? |
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March 12th, 2012, 09:20 AM | #4 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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I need to do the interview I promised with my friend and hypermiling great, Alan Smith.
He has developed the best Ninja 250 streamliner to date ( 116 MPG ) and he is a storehouse of knowledge on motrocycle fuel efficviency. Last futzed with by greenaero; March 12th, 2012 at 08:03 PM. |
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March 12th, 2012, 02:19 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Vic, Allen, and Craig are "Da Man" with their DIY streamliners. This is the way of the future. I was out running around today on my bike and wishing for a big, lockable aero trunk if nothing more than to lock up my helmet, jacket, and gloves. How big that Tourmaster elite jacket is to carry around in stores with all three layers together. The streamliner motorcycle is ecomodding at it's best where fuel economy improvements of %40 are possible while at the same time gaining useful luggage space like no bike had before.
Last futzed with by sendler; March 12th, 2012 at 04:31 PM. |
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March 12th, 2012, 08:02 PM | #6 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Thanks Scott! The storage capacity of the new large tailsection is amazing; I loaded a week's worth of groceries last week, took my large, oldtech laptop and bag to a presentation today , always easy storage for helmet,gloves, jacket and raingear. Hopefully I can run out this tank before some rainy weather hits us again. The 15/33 gearing combo is working well.
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March 12th, 2012, 09:59 PM | #7 |
CBR250R Traitor
Name: Jon
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Red CBR250R 2009 Ninja 250r SE(With 2008 Fairings)(sold) Posts: 924
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As ugly as they look, they seem to have a lot of functionality. Storage space is always something I find lacking on my bike. Of course getting better mileage is a plus too.
I also have to add...it's amazing how much people have started focusing on fuel economy after last summer. With gas around $4, a lot more people I know have started to take fuel economy more seriously. I have convinced a number of my friends to make fuellys and start tracking their MPGs. When people actually see staticstics on how much they are paying they actually start moving towards doing something about it. |
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March 13th, 2012, 08:03 AM | #8 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Etiainen,
Measurement is the first step toward improvement, its good you're encouraging them to monitor their fuel comsumption. Once people see the actual amount of fuel they use, many began to pay attention to the details that waste fuel: unneeded trips, excessive idling, excessive speed, low tire pressures, etc. Actually I thought there was a much bigger reaction during our last fuel price spike to over $4/gal. Then people were dumping their trucks and SUVs and buying motor scooters and bicycles. Not as manic a reaction this time. As far as looks, I'm into function over form and my streamliners put a big smile on my face at the gas pump. |
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March 13th, 2012, 08:58 AM | #9 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Josh
Location: Richmond VA
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Triumph Bonneville Black Posts: 627
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Quote:
Or, instead of all that work to get 60mpg, you could have fun, ride the crap out of it, and 'only' get 55mpg...
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'08 Bonneville Black sold->'08 Ninja 250R | OES Swingarm Spools | EBC HH brake pads | reflector delete | no-cut brake light modulator | DIY fender eliminator |
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March 13th, 2012, 10:01 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Hypermiling is the new form of street competition. Safer and greener than street racing and just as technical and techniquel.
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March 13th, 2012, 11:45 AM | #11 |
Always.
Name: Alex
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250, '05 GSX-R600 Posts: A lot.
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That's so awesome! Gas is no longer a cost =p
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blink-182 |
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March 13th, 2012, 08:43 PM | #12 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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March 13th, 2012, 08:53 PM | #13 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
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Quote:
I still follow your progress with interest. I think what you're doing with the aerodynamics is very cool. I want to learn more about how fluids act. I just have to wait a year or so for that class |
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March 14th, 2012, 10:18 AM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Looks like most of the canyon racers that clicked on the links are in shock after seeing what Allen did to their beloved Ninja. You don't have to mod the bike just to hypermile once in a while. No interest?
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March 14th, 2012, 12:23 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Josh
Location: Richmond VA
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Triumph Bonneville Black Posts: 627
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How is "riding efficiently" (i.e. holding up traffic, planning every red light, overthinking everything, etc) fun?
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'08 Bonneville Black sold->'08 Ninja 250R | OES Swingarm Spools | EBC HH brake pads | reflector delete | no-cut brake light modulator | DIY fender eliminator |
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March 14th, 2012, 12:29 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Florida
Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 357
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I ride the hell out of my Ninjette especially when the roads are clear and I'm at the front of a stoplight. However, it would be nice to how to maximize mileage when there is a bit of traffic.
From what you found, when do you shift and how much throttle do you put in? Is it more efficient to WOT and shift low? |
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March 14th, 2012, 12:53 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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March 14th, 2012, 01:53 PM | #18 | |||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
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MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
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Quote:
It can be anything from this: Quote:
Quote:
While mileage isn't the concern of many of us who are riding a sport bike for it's sporting abilities, it is definitely a good thing to know more about for when gas prices goes up even more. Hypermiling techniques apply to any vehicle. |
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March 14th, 2012, 01:58 PM | #19 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Cliff
Location: Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 1999 BMW K1200LT, 2001 Aprilia Falco, 2008 Ninja 250R and a whole slew of dirtbikes! Posts: 64
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Quote:
http://craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/...20winners.html I know the Charly's son's, we used to race together. I hear his son won one of the challenges last year at Mid-Ohio... |
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March 14th, 2012, 02:06 PM | #20 |
Towster ['__'`,-,
Name: Josh
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Green Ninja 250 SE Posts: 379
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I am looking for some hypermile tips on my 250.
I am still on my first tank of gas since purchasing, which is good, but I want to know what's the best may to extend the mileage on these babies. Currently I do the following: 1) Double Shift to a higher gear. Start at 1, shift to 3, shift to 5 and then 6th. 2) Cruise at 6th when I am traveling 30MPH or more. 3) Pull clutch in when coasting, never use any engine braking. Killing the engine when coasting is something I may eventually do, but once I am more experienced on the bike. In regards to the OP, I frequently find myself coasting at 4000RPM in 6th. Is this consuming more fuel than a higher RPM in 5th gear? I am an avid hypermiler with my 06 xB. I get about 30% higher than EPA estimates for city conditions. I bought a 250 to save gas, and I wanna ensure I get the most from every drop of fuel. And one thing that seems so baffling is that I am consistently hitting 8K RPM in 6th when cruising above 45 MPH or so. I dont see how it is remotely possible to get 60MPG with an engine working that hard!!! Seems ridiculous to me. Any advice would be appreciated. |
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March 14th, 2012, 02:14 PM | #21 | |
CBR250R Traitor
Name: Jon
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Red CBR250R 2009 Ninja 250r SE(With 2008 Fairings)(sold) Posts: 924
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Quote:
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...o-results.html Seems a tad different now. The lower displacements are gone. |
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March 14th, 2012, 02:18 PM | #22 |
CBR250R Traitor
Name: Jon
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Red CBR250R 2009 Ninja 250r SE(With 2008 Fairings)(sold) Posts: 924
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March 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM | #23 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Let's see...
Reswob, I don't hold up traffic, I ride at the speed limit and move to right if someone wants to speed past me. I don't do much planning, I just leave space in front of me and look far ahead so I can slow without breaking when I see a red traffic signal or other obstacle. The fun part comes when you keep passing the same people that continued to accelerate and then be forced to stop. It's really very simple, accelerate usung moderate acceleration (1/4 to 1/2 throttle ) to quickly get to your target speed, then maintain it using the tallest gearing that your bike can handle, then avoid stops and slow downs if possible. Hypermiling isn't always about going slow: I corner hard to maintain my momemtum and let my bike coast downhill as high as fast as is safe and legal. Cliff, Yes Max and Charlie Perethian are 2 of the best motorcycle hypermilers. Max won the 2011 Ohio Vetter Challenge with ~157 mpg, the best result so far in the new Vetter Challenges. Charlie won at the older Vetter fuel economy challenges in 1982 and 1983 with a best of 372 mpg. I hope to meet them in Ohio this year. |
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March 14th, 2012, 03:32 PM | #24 | |
Mr. 988
Name: Jeff
Location: Sandy, Utah
Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): One Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 1
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Quote:
Jeff
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"I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life, the way I want to" - Jimi Hendrix Cancer |
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March 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM | #25 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Ajcadoo, Good job! You are doing a lot of the right things to get good fuel economy. I wouldn't upshift 2 gears at a times, I would just accelerate to 5-6K rpms then upshift quickly to my target speed. The stock Ninja is very short geared so a hypermiler will spend a lot time cruising in 6th gear. For me to break 100mpg, I changed my sprockets to get taller gearing, going from stock 14/45 to 15/41 and now up to 15/33. Lower rpms = better fuel economy unless you are lugging the engine .
Be careful about very long EOCs ( engine-off coasting) as the Ninja's transmission is pressure lubricated. Short EOCs should be no problem. Liist, see above, shift at 5-6K, using 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, avoiding WOT for best fuel economy. |
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March 14th, 2012, 04:02 PM | #26 | |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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March 14th, 2012, 04:31 PM | #27 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Cliff
Location: Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 1999 BMW K1200LT, 2001 Aprilia Falco, 2008 Ninja 250R and a whole slew of dirtbikes! Posts: 64
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Quote:
Thats the bike he did 157mpg: Imagine what they could do if they streamlined it a bit more. Really, I just wanted to show that no matter how good you are, there's always someone that's chasing you or better than you. So making statements like "I can CRUSH your fuel economy numbers" is ridiculous! FWIW, I too got beat by Max many a times, both in the dirt and on the road. LOL! I love reading these threads, as I find people pushing the limits whether it be speed, HP, MPG or laptimes to be fascinating. |
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March 14th, 2012, 04:36 PM | #28 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Quote:
. http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r |
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March 14th, 2012, 04:53 PM | #29 | |
CBR250R Traitor
Name: Jon
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Red CBR250R 2009 Ninja 250r SE(With 2008 Fairings)(sold) Posts: 924
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Quote:
I wish I had time for aero mods. But college just won't end |
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March 14th, 2012, 05:27 PM | #30 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Cliff
Location: Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 1999 BMW K1200LT, 2001 Aprilia Falco, 2008 Ninja 250R and a whole slew of dirtbikes! Posts: 64
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Quote:
Seriously though, last time we took our little 85 Rebel out for a spin, it got similar mileage. It's amazing what little engines are capable of. |
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March 14th, 2012, 08:11 PM | #31 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Quote:
I don't mean to come off like a know it all. When the other guy asked how hypermiling could be fun, I answered competitively with my tongue in cheek to show that the competition is the fun. Just like racing where you are always trying to improve compared to the other riders only you do this safely on the street even if your competitor is on another continent. And you do it every time you turn the key. Technical and techniquel. |
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March 14th, 2012, 10:28 PM | #32 | |
Towster ['__'`,-,
Name: Josh
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Green Ninja 250 SE Posts: 379
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Quote:
So is 4K RPM too low? I cruise at 4K RPM in 6th gear often. |
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March 14th, 2012, 10:48 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Murphey
Location: Eastern Washington
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2002 Honda 919, 2004 Ninja 500R NAKED Posts: A lot.
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Lol my bikes gone up from 43mpg to 48mpg (guessing change to spring/summer gas mixture) and I'm excited about that, yall are crazy! But I honestly find this pretty awesome
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March 14th, 2012, 11:32 PM | #34 |
Motorcycle Hypermiler
Name: Vic
Location: Livermore CA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1999 & 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250R's Posts: A lot.
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It will help but you can higher as long as you are willing to give up some quickness. 4000 rpm in 6th is fine as long as your not lugging the motor.
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March 15th, 2012, 05:27 AM | #35 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Quote:
. http://www.gearingcommander.com/ . Accelerate using 90% load and shift at 7,000 rpm. When you get to the speed you want, skip the rest of the gears and go right to 6th for a light cruise. Drop down gears to 5,000 rpm if you need to accelerate again. Coast with the clutch in and avoid using the brakes. Every time you touch the brakes, you are wasting gas. I am experimenting with some Pulse and Glide this tank to replace much of the light cruising. I will know how I did when I fill up tonight. Your engine in the Ninja is most efficient at high load and 6,000 rpm. Maybe around 30% of the fuel you burn is making forward motion. Cruising with light throttle at 9,000 rpm in a low gear like most sport riders do before gunning it up to the next red light only to blip back down through all the gears while slamming on the brakes, the engine is at 10% efficiency. Pulse in the 30% range and glide up to the light or stop sign. On the highway, I am getting a 1:2 PnG ratio so I am expecting one of my best tank averages this time even though it has been below 30F both mornings which robs heat energy from the engine breathing cold air, and I had to put the very un aero grip muffs back on to save my fingers.
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http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r |
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March 15th, 2012, 05:40 AM | #36 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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15/ 37 gearing should still be pretty rideable not to stall out on hills with some prctice and will drop your 69 mph highway cruise to the high efficiency range of 6,500 rpm. 38, or 39 if you can't find a 37T steel rear sprocket
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http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r |
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March 15th, 2012, 07:22 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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159.5 miles/ 1.789 gallonsUS = 89.2 for my Honda on my usual 68 mph highway commute.
First tank ever while playing with full on Pulse and Glide. Very cold both mornings at 25F. I put the grip muffs back on the second morning after getting dangerously cold fingers the first. So one leg of four had the extra drag of the mitts. And the cold air robs some heat energy from the combustion. I should get better with warmer weather. Full on PnG only added 10%? A little disappointing. I must need to fine tune the throttle opening that I am using to find the best trade off between power vs. fuel consumption. I thought PnG would do more. Maybe I am dipping into a "richer for safety" part of the fuel injection program at 90% throttle. I wasn't quite able to get a 1:2 PnG ratio either.
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http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r |
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March 15th, 2012, 08:01 PM | #38 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
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March 15th, 2012, 10:19 PM | #39 |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.
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This seems like the place to offer it: I'm taking off a low-mileage 38T rear if anyone wants it. Pretty much only used for a trip from San Diego, CA to Newnan, GA ('bout 2,100 easy-going miles), but I already needed a new chain and sprockets so I'm going back to 15:41.
Edit: Found that the chain was missing several rollers. It didn't have the chance to ruin this sprocket like my last one with my last chain with the same problem, but I wouldn't trust it. Last futzed with by CZroe; March 21st, 2012 at 12:11 AM. |
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March 19th, 2012, 05:16 AM | #40 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Slow down to save fuel. My numbers go up another 5-10% when I reduce my speed from 68 mph to 50 mph. Of course you have to keep up with the average of traffic but on the deserted back country roads the speed limits are only 55 mph and most people drive 50 mph where I am as it is still busy with driveways and dogs. One round trip to work in cold weather and one day of riding back roads at 50 mph with my daughter on her Ninja in 70F temps. The lower speed helps my FE number. Still playing with PnG with lighter throttle openings. 133.6 miles / 1.425 gallonsUS = 93.7 mpgUS
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http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sendler/cbr250r |
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