Ecotrons Install Thread

[lolibater]

glad to hear you guys are still tinkering away

Chone, you're going back to carbs now?!

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Chone, you're going back to carbs now?!

Nope, never

I mentioned the carbs because right now I have the same intake/exhaust setup as I had last time I went to the track, only I had carbs then. Basically now I have an apples-to-apples comparison.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I thought about using 1/4" OD copper tubing. You should be able to make a 1" diameter bend without kinking using the water freeze method.

What about this stuff? It's 1/4" Brass tubing.

http://www.hardwareandtools.com/K-An...FY1aMgodZDkAqw

I should be able to get a small pipe-bender for really cheap right? I still have 2 spare EFI clamps, but I can always get more if needed.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

What about this stuff? It's 1/4" Brass tubing.

http://www.hardwareandtools.com/K-An...FY1aMgodZDkAqw

I should be able to get a small pipe-bender for really cheap right? I still have 2 spare EFI clamps, but I can always get more if needed.

The local hardware store also carries them. But plain copper tubing from the hardware store is designed to be bent so it might be better. The only advantage to the brass is that its thinner (bigger on the inside) than copper tubing.

To bend it, fill the length with water and seal the ends with bubble gum or something similar. Freeze overnight. Then bend it around a 1" form like a broom handle or something similar. Without the water, it will kink with a tight radius.

They sell cheap tubing benders at harbor freight if you need one.

[choneofakind]

Yeah that's something I'll likely pick up from a local store. I was also thinking brass might be better than copper because it doesn't turn all green and nasty when it oxidizes. Will copper be alright with gasoline?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yeah that's something I'll likely pick up from a local store. I was also thinking brass might be better than copper because it doesn't turn all green and nasty when it oxidizes. Will copper be alright with gasoline?

should be.

[choneofakind]

Boom!!! more searching found me this:

http://midwestbev.com/SS1/4BarbU-Bend.aspx

It's a stainless steel part for making beer I guess. Should be just fine with gasoline right?

[lgk]

Looks like it'll work

[choneofakind]

Yes!! They're only $0.81 a piece! I only need 2 of those and one more 90 degree elbow, then I'm done with fuel line crap.

[n4mwd]

Yes, stainless is even better than brass. Looks like a really good catch.





The prices are really good too. What's the shipping on those?

[lgk]

thinking of replacing a couple of tees with y's and a cross to mount a fuel pressure gauge.

the shipping is expensive though.

$11 for $7 worth of parts.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lgk

thinking of replacing a couple of tees with y's and a cross to mount a fuel pressure gauge.

the shipping is expensive though.

$11 for $7 worth of parts.

why not just install a fuel test port?

the shipping is a bit high, but just think about it as $18 with Free Shipping.

[choneofakind]

@lgk they have a minimum order of $5 and shipping is like $14 to me. Would you be willing to add (2) 1/4" barbed u-bends to your order for me? I'll pay the increased price + the shipping to me. Just pay pal invoice me when you get it all figured out.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

@lgk they have a minimum order of $5 and shipping is like $14 to me. Would you be willing to add (2) 1/4" barbed u-bends to your order for me? I'll pay the increased price + the shipping to me. Just pay pal invoice me when you get it all figured out.

I can do that but let me Call my plumbing supply place first and see if they have the equivalent.

might save a little time.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lgk

I can do that but let me Call my plumbing supply place first and see if they have the equivalent.

might save a little time.

Thanks Jason. If all works out, I'll PM you my info. Just let me know.

[n4mwd]

you might want to call a local beverage supply dealer and see if they have some, I never thought to check there before.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Thanks Jason. If all works out, I'll PM you my info. Just let me know.

ended up ordering from Midwest.

[choneofakind]

I got my u-bends thanks to Jason! Thanks a bunch.
They look great. The bend is 1" diameter. The bend is good, and they look like they'll work well for me.

@n4mwd did your air box seal well onto the intake runners? I'm wondering if I need to use any RTV on those to make sure they seal well.

@lolibater, what kind of fuel filter are you using? I was planning on replacing my current one because it's been there all last season. I prefer a metal one because my plastic one seems to have bent over time from laying on its side.

[lolibater]

I have a plastic one, but it's quite sturdy compared to other plastic ones I have used. Fram G1000.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I got my u-bends thanks to Jason! Thanks a bunch.
They look great. The bend is 1" diameter. The bend is good, and they look like they'll work well for me.

@n4mwd did your air box seal well onto the intake runners? I'm wondering if I need to use any RTV on those to make sure they seal well.

@lolibater, what kind of fuel filter are you using? I was planning on replacing my current one because it's been there all last season. I prefer a metal one because my plastic one seems to have bent over time from laying on its side.

I didn't use any sealant on the airbox. The rubber tubes that were provided actually fit pretty good.

I used a Fram 7144. I plan to replace mine soon too because there is a lot of crap in the tank that was stuck in there before because it couldn't make it past the screen on the petcock, but now everything gets stopped by the filter so its getting full quick.

[choneofakind]

That's what I noticed with the filter too. It's a new season, I might as well get a new filter.


Thanks for the sanity check on the air box. It seemed to seal pretty well on the runners, but I just wanted to double check. I guess I'll just have to check for leaks and keep an eye on it every once in a while.

[lolibater]

I'll be getting a new one this summer when I take some time to redo all the fuel lines, clamps, and pump locations

For now my bike has been running great! Getting me to and from work nicely on my 90mi commute. The Corbin, WinterWings, and bar risers were the best choice ever. Now I just need a ZG Sport Touring shield.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lolibater

I'll be getting a new one this summer when I take some time to redo all the fuel lines, clamps, and pump locations

Have fun! I just did that. Takes longer than you think. Also, be prepared to have gas everywhere because you have to empty the gas out of the lines and pump.

Where are you putting everything? Same place I used to have mine? Now my pump is on the front of the air box and the lines are all in that little space between the box and the engine. That's why I ended up buying some u-bends.

[n4mwd]

One of those u-bends with the tap in the middle would have been great for the regulator setup like I have it.

[lgk]

i got one the u shaped manifolds for just that purpose.

[choneofakind]

Update: the fuel injection likes the air box MUCH better than it likes the carbs. It idles smoother and it runs up to the top end nicely, even in ECO mode. With pod filters, it really struggled at the top with ECO mode turned on. Although, that might be because I also adjusted the ignition timing to 42 degrees at the top instead of the 36 degrees that the system came programmed with.

Also, there's no air leaking in through the runners or air box boots. Those seal just fine. I'm happy with the sound it's making and the response I get when I use the throttle. n4mwd and alex.s are right on this subject; the air box does very well with fuel injection.

EDIT: the updates from Matt are great. Finally I have the throttle response right off idle that a fuel injected bike should have.

[n4mwd]

I didn't realize that those pods were giving you that much trouble. I've really had no trouble with mine using the airbox. I'm always running ECO mode. Hopefully that isn't going to be a problem with it running too lean.

The Ninja regurgitates some of the fuel air mix on every compression stroke. Without an airbox, this must be rather loud and you may be losing fuel vapor and possibly your fuel efficiency will show it. With the airbox, it just gets sucked back in with the next intake cycle.

Unless you ride like I do, you should be seeing around 60-70mpg with the airbox.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, the pods sounded great, but they supplied really turbulent and inconsistent air. With a system that learns as it goes, consistency is key. The bike physically ran fine, but a cross wind would throw it all off I also think the injectors might be the limiting factor for fuel at the top end with a pod filter. Whichever way you look at it, the air box is doing very well. Definitely worth my hassle to redo all my fuel lines and whatnot.

I don't care much about mileage. It's going to do better than my car, no matter what I do to it. But on RICH with pods, I was getting about 50-55 mpg with mixed riding. I'm thinking with an air box and a rich map that's leaned a bit for cruising, I should get 55-60 easily with the same riding.

[lolibater]

Updates came out recently?

[choneofakind]

No, those are the updates from December. Remember that I'm at school without bike and don't get to ride from September-May. I'm the last one to finally use the newest maps

Also, I'm finally getting a chance to test out some different values for the warm-up enrichment. Today I tried the 95% map. Worked nicely, and the cold idle was a little closer to the hot idle without issue. Tomorrow, I'll try the 90% map and see how it reacts.

[lolibater]

Oh that's right you don't get to ride year round

Hopefully the 250 will be sold by the end of next month for me! No more fiddling with this stuff

Though the person buying it is my roommate, so I'm sure I'll be fixing whatever he manages to mess up.

[choneofakind]

Y U sell so soon??? SHIP ME YOUR FORKS AND WE'LL SWAP INTERNALS!!

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Y U sell so soon??? SHIP ME YOUR FORKS AND WE'LL SWAP INTERNALS!!

I need the money to put towards the loan on the 650. I'll still get to ride it, so I'm sure I still want all the fun bits Might finally convince myself to do the newgen swingarm swap now that it's not really mien

[choneofakind]

Ohhh ppffbbttbtfhhhh

[choneofakind]

Working on the warm-up enrichment. Found that my 90% map is near perfect. The bike comes up to basically the same idle as hot idle and is steady the whole way through warm up.

However, I stranded myself because I forgot something important. There are 3 processes going on during a start. Start, after start, and warm up. The enrichment from each variable is cumulative, and each enrichment tapers off as it is no longer needed (aka, after its respective process is done) so when I lowered the enrichment value for warm-up, I also lowered the total enrichment present during starting. Bike didn't like that. It was hesitant to start cold, and impossible to start when the engine was fully up to temp. Left me stranded, had to let the engine cool and get a jump because I wore down my battery totally my fault.

So! the lesson here? I need to adjust the starting enrichment. The after start enrichment is fine; once the engine started, it sped right up to idle speed like it's supposed to. I'm going to start by adding more enrichment for the initial start and see how it goes. I'll start at 105% of the supplied start map and go up to 110% and 115% as needed.

EDIT: I just upped the starting enrichment and the after start enrichment by 5%. Much less hesitation to start and then get up to idle. Hopefully this works for me tomorrow once the engine is hot.

Side note, the air box was worth it. I took a look at the incoming air temp readout on procal, and the air temp is constant the whole time. With the pod filter I could watch the engine coolant temp rise as it idled, and the air temp would slowly creep up. Then I'd start moving and the air temp would drop suddenly while the coolant temp dropped gradually. Air box definitely recommended. I've been ripping up to the limiter (or redline) more recently. I hope to test out RICH mode here soon. The start up is almost where I want it, I just need it to work reliably for all air/engine temps. I need to ditch the O2 sensors so I can run RICH mode constantly and get the performance I want. That will also lower my power usage and help smooth the idle. Almost done.

Also, it looks like my idle is a touch high. It's typically around 1600-1650. Meh.

[n4mwd]

Sounds like you are the resident procal expert these days. You might want to get a bluetooth adapter and the android phone app so you can play with your variables on the fly. Would have come in handy when you were stuck.

[choneofakind]

Thought about it, but 1) I don't have a smart phone 2) I don't want to spend more money on the bike, more looking into leathers and a new bicycle 3) when I get a smart phone, I'm going with the iPhone 5 because I already know how to use iOS from my iPod Touch.

I'm really digging not having to take the whole bike apart to make adjustments. I just hope it doesn't get funny on me tomorrow when I go for a ride with Nautica and go an hour or two from home. Maybe I'll bring along some jumper cables, just in case

I'll get some other maps for both the start-up and after-start tables on my blog page as well. I can't just post one because each bike is different, and I know my air screws are out more than most since it idles a bit above 1600, so not everyone will need the same start-up/after-start/warm-up enrichment as my bike.

Definitely worth the time for users to get to know ProCal a bit and futz with the close-loop (starting procedure) variables. Start ups are much smoother when the bike comes right up to the proper rpm instead of scaring you by idling at 1000 and making you think it's going to stall out...

[n4mwd]

I assume that Nautica is the GF and not the bike. Even so, maybe take a laptop with you so your covered. But it does spoil the mood if that is your GF.

I take a little pair of jumper cables that I made with me now. Of course, now they make little tiny biker cables that you can buy.

[choneofakind]

No, Nautica is a member on here who is local to me and I ride with

[choneofakind]

Another update:

Removed O2 sensors. Hunting idle is gone completely. Idle is very smooth, no blips, dips, or oscillations.

Switched to RICH mode for good, ended up going with a RICH map that is blocks of cells rather than linear trends. IE, everything under 17% throttle is at 14.2 AFR, and everything above 50% throttle is 12.9 AFR. Everything else is in the 13.5-14.0 range in blocks. Those are the numbers I managed to come up with from some research online, and the end result is a smooth bike everywhere with very nice throttle response and performance.

I hope that removing the O2 sensors lowers my power usage enough to take care of my slow-charging battery issue. Fingers crossed.

Bike starts, warms, runs, and idles very well. All my tables attached to my blog have been updated. I will email the cal file upon request. Very happy with the performance. It's finally to a point where it feels 100% comparable to my well jetted carbs that I replaced. I highly recommend at least using the ignition timing table and RICH map table as long as your bike has had time in learning mode.