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Old April 8th, 2020, 06:53 PM   #1
BlueNinjaF18
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Ready to try riding again?

After selling my bike over a year ago, I honestly thought that I would never attempt riding again. I had zero experience or training with sport bikes, and the entire experience was awful. The bike I bought ( 04 Ninja 250) was not in sound mechanical condition. The seller lied about the maintenance on the bike, and I was looking at a small fortune to get it back to spec. In addition, I crashed this bike three times while trying to learn to ride, including tearing down the porch railing! So yeah, it was not fun.

After I learned about the MSF new rider course, I was excited to go until I discovered the cost was almost as much as I paid for the bike. In over my head, and with no one to turn to for help, I sold the bike and walked away. I was extremely discouraged, and received a lot of hate from family and others online. What I needed was someone who could work with me one on one until I felt confident enough to get on the road.

I spent several months practicing on my neighborhood street, and I quickly learned the basics of counter steering and braking. What I did not learn how to do well was downshift, and I was extremely afraid of tire hopping. I learned that the older bikes like mine were prone to this if I did it wrong, and the last thing that I wanted was to visit the ER a second time. I discovered that not being confident in my ability created doubt and fear, and neither of those leave any room for error on a bike in open traffic.

Now, after spending almost a year away from touching one, I'm finding myself wanting another go. I have the same thoughts that I had in the ER when I crashed the second time, that if I walk away and never learn to ride, that I will never be able to live with that decision. I have also gotten a lot of flak because I have high functioning Autism, and there have been plenty of people who have laughed at me when they learned that I crashed, and said that I was going to get killed riding. I guess if you hear that all day, then you probably will set yourself up for failure. I even considered buying one of those Tao tao racer scooters as an alternative before buying another bike, but I quickly ruled that out.

I think for me my best option is not spending a fortune in the local MSF course, but finding a rider who is willing to train me, even if I have to pay them. It's a lot easier for me to learn one on one, without the added stress of a crowd of people. I also would not be under stress to pass the test, and risk failing it. I think that would be a waste of money. If you have serious input that could help, I would greatly appreciate it, as I am open to suggestions.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 03:34 AM   #2
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Like what was shared in your earlier threads, the MSF is highly recommended, but it's not necessarily the only method to learn. Many of those on the site learned in various ways - including many years ago when beginner riding training may not have even available.

But - there's no cheap, easy, no-risk way to do this. You say you can't afford MSF as the primary reason, but if that's the real impediment to you riding - you probably don't have the financial ability to be riding anyway. In your earlier threads, you quoted the MSF course at $300, and have described that as a small fortune. How much do you have budgeted for a new bike? How much for repairs if you're buying an older bike that likely will need some? How much for appropriate riding gear, now that you have hit the pavement 3 times already and know that it might not be the last? How much for insurance not only on the bike itself, but for medical/disability/life insurance if you have any dependents at all that would be impacted by another accident on your bike?
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Old April 9th, 2020, 04:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
I have also gotten a lot of flak because I have high functioning Autism
before I comment further....some prerequisite questions:

Have you been cleared to ride by your Doc(s) from a medical viewpoint?
Any actual physical impediments?
Do you drive a car? Have a driving licence?
Experience in dealing with traffic situations?
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Old April 9th, 2020, 11:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
before I comment further....some prerequisite questions:

Have you been cleared to ride by your Doc(s) from a medical viewpoint?
Any actual physical impediments?
Do you drive a car? Have a driving licence?
Experience in dealing with traffic situations?
Yes I am cleared, no physical impediments, and Yes I do drive a car and have experience dealing with traffic. I actually have both defensive and offensive driving training from my time in security, and have never had a speeding ticket, and one accident in twenty years of driving that I was not at fault for. After my last crash I did extensive research and taught myself how to ride, as I already had experience riding a dirt bike. What I did not learn were two key areas: rev matching and throttle control.

Specifically, I did not know that while riding, you could ease back on the throttle to decrease your speed without downshifting, as each gear has a specific range to operate in both for the RPMs and speed. Due to that I refused to get out on the open road and risk my safety or anyone else's. Though I am Autistic, I am not stupid (not implying that you thought that). My issues mostly deal with sensory overload with certain sounds. It's why I said I learn better when it's a one on one thing where I don't feel pressured or rush; an example being like when you work in a production setting.

I also do better when I'm alone. I have always been introverted, and that is due in large part to the abuse that I have endured as a child. That in turn created insecurity, which affects everything that I do like a job, ext. I guess that same insecurity is present in learning to ride, but I feel like I made steps to overcome that by making a level headed decision to get up and get back on it. I read Proficient Motorcycling over and over, then took the bike in my driveway and learned to feel the throttle, while watching the RPM's.

Next I learned the friction zone on the clutch so that it would not stall. after a week of doing that, I practiced accelerating from stand still to the end of the driveway, and stopping the bike at a pre determine spot. I did that for two weeks before going down the street. I learned how the tires react when they're cold and hot, and I practiced counter steering. Then I began doing emergency braking. I got the bike up to 60 and stopped it using both the front and rear brakes. That taught me how and when I could use them.

I'm sharing this because I do not want you to think that I am completely ignorant, nor do I want you to think that I just saw MotoGP and decided that a ZX10r should be my goal. I like being and feeling safe, and after two months of what I just described, I felt safe on the 250. I liked how stable it felt, and though I did not do any extreme cornering, when I did corner I felt in control of the bike instead of like I did when I crashed. I realized that I hit the gravel that was spilled on the road, the tires lost traction, and that was that. I do not regret that happening, because it taught me a valuable lesson.

I also don't have an ego like some folks you see that give riding a bad rap. I want to use the bike to commute in town, and get at least six months of experience doing that before I attempt to ride on the highway. Even as a driver in a car we all see how crazy some folks are, always in a hurry, and they always think that they deserve or have a right to place their own interests above someone else's safety.

This time around my goal is to buy a bike from a dealership rather than a private seller, in order to avoid the same mistakes as before. I also have no intention of riding the bike in the rain, or if I feel bad. Riding as far as I have experienced is a whole other sensory experience, but in a good way. You have to constantly be aware of your surroundings, while maintain control of the bike. I learned that if I don't look downrange several hundred meters, that I could miss something that could get me killed. You can't do that if you're sleepy, tired, or feeling bad.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 02:26 PM   #5
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All indicates good to go then. Can offer some general comments then.

As others suggested, MSF would be 1st choice as they work on an instant, personal level dealing with YOUR individual, specific needs.

Short of that...slowly but surely familiarize yourself to bike's specific input needs and its responses. Don't push, stick with more empty backroads. Whatever time it takes, you'll build up confidence in your abilities. Then and only then, hit more trafficked areas. Progressively...don't jump right on to the interstates just yet. Make more demands on both yourself and on the bike WHILE staying within limits. A slow, safe and sure progression or "learning curve".

I hesitate to go into a "life story" but I'm 68 now. Street riding (illegally) from around 12-13 YO progressing from a $30 1965 Honda CB160, self taught long before MSF existed...using the same manner as I described above, all backroads until legal, then and only then taking it to commuting, sport touring.

These days my most favorite riding is slow, twisty, tree lined back roads. Sometimes I'll purposely take a wrong turn and "get lost" exploring. No pressure. Redefines therapeutic.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 04:18 PM   #6
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nor do I want you to think that I just saw MotoGP and decided that a ZX10r should be my goal.
HAHAH!!!! You're already better than 80% of new-riders out there!

I found private-tutor for my wife when she wanted to ride. Well worth effort, time and money. A lot of times, it's not easy for someone not doing it professionally to give you tips. Everyone has different learning curve and needs customized instruction. Amount of personalised attention will vary of course.

In our case, I'm worse trainer possible. So tutor was definintely way to go.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 04:51 PM   #7
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I really appreciate the feedback, it means a lot. I live on the edge of a small town, and had considered riding in a neighborhood adjacent to mine that has very little traffic. There's also an industrial park about two miles from me where I thought of going to practice down shifting, as it has a service road with little traffic on it.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 05:07 PM   #8
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Like what was shared in your earlier threads, the MSF is highly recommended, but it's not necessarily the only method to learn. Many of those on the site learned in various ways - including many years ago when beginner riding training may not have even available.

But - there's no cheap, easy, no-risk way to do this. You say you can't afford MSF as the primary reason, but if that's the real impediment to you riding - you probably don't have the financial ability to be riding anyway. In your earlier threads, you quoted the MSF course at $300, and have described that as a small fortune. How much do you have budgeted for a new bike? How much for repairs if you're buying an older bike that likely will need some? How much for appropriate riding gear, now that you have hit the pavement 3 times already and know that it might not be the last? How much for insurance not only on the bike itself, but for medical/disability/life insurance if you have any dependents at all that would be impacted by another accident on your bike?
As for safety gear I didn't skimp on that when I ordered it. I have spoken with the MSF Instructor (nearest class is 50 miles from me) last year, and though I agree the MSF course is a good option, it is not one best suited for me. As I said in my post I am Autistic, and I learn things almost instantly if I do not feel pressured or rushed in doing so. A large group environment would not be conducive to what I want to do, and that is to break down each issue that I'm having, and practice it correctly until it is no longer an issue. By doing that it means that my attention is no longer focused on something that could cause me to crash.

The other issue is of course money, and though I do not think that everyone on this site is rich, I'm sure some are, and can afford anything that comes up. I am not wealthy, and do not think that it would be a fair statement to say if a rider cannot afford everything that everyone else does, that I should not be riding. The MSF course here costs $340, plus the cost of transporting my bike there, which is 50 miles away. I would also have to incur expenses for a room. That's not feasible when you have a budget. Could I save for it? Sure. Do I want to?No, because as the instructor and I discussed it's not my best option. What I need is a veteran rider who I can learn from and ride with locally.

Having said that, I have budgeted $2000 for my next bike. I already have the insurance and gear lined up beforehand. I am also aware this time around about regular maintenance on the bike, and what I can and cannot do myself. I did not know what to look at and look for before, now I do. I also have no intention of buying a used bike from a private seller. I have talked with about a dozen dealerships within a hundred miles, and they all have used bikes that are single rider owners, with no drops, and were well maintained. That's the other reason I'm doing that, because the owner of my previous bike obviously didn't care about anyone's safety, he just wanted the money.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 06:09 PM   #9
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You sound like a very reasonable gent. Unfortunate but understandable your prior ride left you wary.

If you were local here, we'd be out and about as soon as weather agreed!

I'd concur the local neighborhood and industrial park you mention would be your best logical starting points.

Go slow, go easy, don't push, rather enjoy the experience in learning and perfecting. As you had inferred its both immature and dangerous to fantasize you are Valentino Rossi out there, weaving in and out of traffic!

PS...in riding we ALL miss a shift, hit a false neutral or screw up in some minor way from time to time. NO ONE is immune, but I like to think we minimize error through experience.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 09:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
As for safety gear I didn't skimp on that when I ordered it.
If you were in the hospital for the last one, it seems like much of it might need to be replaced, including a new helmet, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
The other issue is of course money, and though I do not think that everyone on this site is rich, I'm sure some are, and can afford anything that comes up. I am not wealthy, and do not think that it would be a fair statement to say if a rider cannot afford everything that everyone else does, that I should not be riding.
I feel that this was a badly formed argument. It's not about affording everything that everyone else does, it's about having enough so you alone can afford everything that you alone need to in order to ride safely. Last time you skimped on training, bike purchasing, and bike maintenance, and you ended up in the hospital. You say that you want to avoid that this time. Some of it will take will and initiative, some of it will take money. It's not up to anyone else to determine your budget - it's solely up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
The MSF course here costs $340, plus the cost of transporting my bike there, which is 50 miles away. I would also have to incur expenses for a room. That's not feasible when you have a budget. Could I save for it? Sure. Do I want to?No, because as the instructor and I discussed it's not my best option. What I need is a veteran rider who I can learn from and ride with locally.
I still don't get why you need to pay extra to transport your bike there (use theirs!), and I don't get you why you need to get a room for someplace that's 45 minutes away, shorter than many people's commutes. I feel like you're exaggerating the costs because you've decided you don't want to learn with other people, but it's also certainly your prerogative to determine where/when would be the best environment for learning.

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Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
I also have no intention of buying a used bike from a private seller. I have talked with about a dozen dealerships within a hundred miles, and they all have used bikes that are single rider owners, with no drops, and were well maintained. That's the other reason I'm doing that, because the owner of my previous bike obviously didn't care about anyone's safety, he just wanted the money.
Every used bike on a dealer lot becomes a 1-owner machine that was only taken to church on Sundays by a little old lady. I fully believe you that the prior owner of your first bike took some liberties with maintenance. A large percentage of used bikes in the price range you are talking about are going to have the same maintenance questions, private sale or dealer lot, and will need to be gone over carefully by folks that you trust - and any issues need to be resolved. If you think the prior owner "only wanted money", I'm afraid to share what most dealerships exist for.
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Old April 14th, 2020, 08:51 AM   #11
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As far as people telling you you'll die if you ride a bike... yeah, you'll hear that a lot. Even from people who love you and know you. Defensive driving skills, for the win! That will help a lot and keep you safer.

That industrial park sounds like a good place to practice things. I used one near me for practice. Empty streets, go round the block until I got things down.
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Old April 16th, 2020, 07:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BlueNinjaF18 View Post
....... As I said in my post I am Autistic, and I learn things almost instantly if I do not feel pressured or rushed in doing so. A large group environment would not be conducive to what I want to do, and that is to break down each issue that I'm having, and practice it correctly until it is no longer an issue. By doing that it means that my attention is no longer focused on something that could cause me to crash.

The other issue is of course money, and though I do not think that everyone on this site is rich, I'm sure some are, and can afford anything that comes up. I am not wealthy, and do not think that it would be a fair statement to say if a rider cannot afford everything that everyone else does, that I should not be riding. The MSF course here costs $340, plus the cost of transporting my bike there, which is 50 miles away. I would also have to incur expenses for a room. That's not feasible when you have a budget. Could I save for it? Sure. Do I want to?No, because as the instructor and I discussed it's not my best option. What I need is a veteran rider who I can learn from and ride with locally.

Having said that, I have budgeted $2000 for my next bike. I already have the insurance and gear lined up beforehand. I am also aware this time around about regular maintenance on the bike, and what I can and cannot do myself. I did not know what to look at and look for before, now I do. I also have no intention of buying a used bike from a private seller. I have talked with about a dozen dealerships within a hundred miles, and they all have used bikes that are single rider owners, with no drops, and were well maintained. That's the other reason I'm doing that, because the owner of my previous bike obviously didn't care about anyone's safety, he just wanted the money.
Just a few thoughts here.

1. Check around for some other MSF courses or instructors, the places that teach beginning riders courses around here, several of them do one on one classes. They are a bit more expensive, but they offer just what you are looking for. While getting a a veteran biker to teach you may be a good thing, how do you know the veteran biker is teaching you the right thing? I read a study a while back that looked at how people learned to ride and their accident rate in the first couple of years riding. The worst way was "being taught by a family member, friend, or neighbor" The best way was taking a MSF type course, and "Self Taught" was almost as good as the MSF course and better than the family member or friend.

2. I know $340 for the class sounds like a lot to you, and you don't have much money. But what will the insurance deductible be on your new bike? $250, $500, $1,000? If the course teaches you a skill that prevents you from dropping your bike, even in a low speed parking lot spill, if will save you more than it cost. In other words, don't look at the short term cost of the class, look at the long term benefits.

3. You don't have to be able to afford everything that I can buy, but you do need to be able to afford enough to ride safely. That means a motorcycle in good condition (if you have mechanical skill you can do that yourself), a decent helmet, Jacket, pants, gloves, and boots. You are budgeting $2,000 for a bike, you need to budget at least another $500 for gear in my opinion. The $340 for the training is just another small fee in my opinion.
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Old April 27th, 2020, 03:33 PM   #13
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Yes I am cleared, no physical impediments, and Yes I do drive a car and have experience dealing with traffic. I actually have both defensive and offensive driving training from my time in security, and have never had a speeding ticket, and one accident in twenty years of driving that I was not at fault for. After my last crash I did extensive research and taught myself how to ride, as I already had experience riding a dirt bike. What I did not learn were two key areas: rev matching and throttle control.

Specifically, I did not know that while riding, you could ease back on the throttle to decrease your speed without downshifting, as each gear has a specific range to operate in both for the RPMs and speed. Due to that I refused to get out on the open road and risk my safety or anyone else's. Though I am Autistic, I am not stupid (not implying that you thought that). My issues mostly deal with sensory overload with certain sounds. It's why I said I learn better when it's a one on one thing where I don't feel pressured or rush; an example being like when you work in a production setting.

I also do better when I'm alone. I have always been introverted, and that is due in large part to the abuse that I have endured as a child. That in turn created insecurity, which affects everything that I do like a job, ext. I guess that same insecurity is present in learning to ride, but I feel like I made steps to overcome that by making a level headed decision to get up and get back on it. I read Proficient Motorcycling over and over, then took the bike in my driveway and learned to feel the throttle, while watching the RPM's.

Next I learned the friction zone on the clutch so that it would not stall. after a week of doing that, I practiced accelerating from stand still to the end of the driveway, and stopping the bike at a pre determine spot. I did that for two weeks before going down the street. I learned how the tires react when they're cold and hot, and I practiced counter steering. Then I began doing emergency braking. I got the bike up to 60 and stopped it using both the front and rear brakes. That taught me how and when I could use them.

I'm sharing this because I do not want you to think that I am completely ignorant, nor do I want you to think that I just saw MotoGP and decided that a ZX10r should be my goal. I like being and feeling safe, and after two months of what I just described, I felt safe on the 250. I liked how stable it felt, and though I did not do any extreme cornering, when I did corner I felt in control of the bike instead of like I did when I crashed. I realized that I hit the gravel that was spilled on the road, the tires lost traction, and that was that. I do not regret that happening, because it taught me a valuable lesson.

I also don't have an ego like some folks you see that give riding a bad rap. I want to use the bike to commute in town, and get at least six months of experience doing that before I attempt to ride on the highway. Even as a driver in a car we all see how crazy some folks are, always in a hurry, and they always think that they deserve or have a right to place their own interests above someone else's safety.

This time around my goal is to buy a bike from a dealership rather than a private seller, in order to avoid the same mistakes as before. I also have no intention of riding the bike in the rain, or if I feel bad. Riding as far as I have experienced is a whole other sensory experience, but in a good way. You have to constantly be aware of your surroundings, while maintain control of the bike. I learned that if I don't look downrange several hundred meters, that I could miss something that could get me killed. You can't do that if you're sleepy, tired, or feeling bad.
Hey, I just wanted to say that I think it's great that you are taking such an in depth approach to your own riding and are being systematic about it. Congrats for getting past the first barrier of getting back on the bike after you have had an accident. It's not easy so well done.....If I lived near by I'd be happy to give you a one on one riding lesson! (I'm a coach with the California Superbike School) Unfortunately I'm in Canada.

I do really want to say that I'd love it if you kept your search up for someone or some kind of class (MSF or other kind of riding class) so that you can continue to learn valuable riding skills as fundamentals early on are so very important. You seem to have a good understanding of what you are learning so I'd push you to continue. If you'd like to ask me specific questions I'm happy to try and answer, otherwise I wish you the best of luck for finding a good class and learning how to ride so that you too can enjoy the sport that we LOVE.

Oh, and don't let anyone (EVER) tell you that being Autistic should be a limit to you riding. I have a personal friend who is a pro race car driver who is also Autistic. He has come so very far since first learning how to drive a go-kart.

Check him out: https://www.racingwithautism.com

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Old May 1st, 2020, 06:59 AM   #14
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You can do it Mike.
Take your time, and be careful.
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Old May 1st, 2020, 11:29 AM   #15
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I'm not thrilled with MSF either, Mike. My daughter took their course, and made one small mistake in the final test, slightly crossing a line, and was failed. The quick advice from the instructors was "take the course again". Sure, another couple hundred bucks just to take the test again. I was very disappointed that there was no way for her to retake the test with a reasonable price break.

We went to the DMV in a small North Carolina town and she passed the test on the first try. We're both happy that she took the course, and she feels the things she learned were well worth the cost, but that "take the course again" at full price is a bit much for a college student.
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Old May 1st, 2020, 12:31 PM   #16
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You can do it Mike.
Take your time, and be careful.
Yes, don't try to push it. ALWAYS stay within your comfort zone.
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Old May 1st, 2020, 12:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I'm not thrilled with MSF either, Mike. My daughter took their course, and made one small mistake in the final test, slightly crossing a line, and was failed. The quick advice from the instructors was "take the course again". Sure, another couple hundred bucks just to take the test again. I was very disappointed that there was no way for her to retake the test with a reasonable price break.

We went to the DMV in a small North Carolina town and she passed the test on the first try. We're both happy that she took the course, and she feels the things she learned were well worth the cost, but that "take the course again" at full price is a bit much for a college student.
My wife wasn't thrilled about MSF here either. We scoped out local MSF course and talked to some participants. Their feedback was that even though class was good, there wasn't enough hands-on attention from instructors during actual practice-riding times. And that due to limited amount of bikes available, they had to wait long time between practice-sessions.

So we went and found private tutor for her instead. I think overall for less time and money spent, with private instructor we got better results
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Old May 1st, 2020, 12:54 PM   #18
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As far as people telling you you'll die if you ride a bike... yeah, you'll hear that a lot. Even from people who love you and know you.
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 05:09 AM   #19
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My two cents -

You might be better off trying to find an MSF instructor or track coach that is willing to give you some private lessons at an affordable price. Then after some practice time, take the test at the DMV. After a failed attempt at my state's beginner's course due to my social anxiety, I was fortunate to have access to an awesome member here that helped me out. While I did attempt the returning rider course and got further but not all the way through, the individual instruction was priceless to me. The best thing that could have happened for my riding. It's been a bumpy road, tried the BMV test twice (panic attack the first time, missed it by 1 point the second). The difference with doing the test is it's free. You have unlimited tries. I did my first track days last year, and plan on going back for more this year. That, and I will eventually go for the test again once the BMVs are opened back up.

Moral of the story - you got this. you might get two steps forward and one step back, but you'll keep moving forward, and that's what matters.
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Old May 3rd, 2020, 08:46 AM   #20
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Hmmmm,

I have been watching this thread with some interest.

My first thought is....



We all have our different challenges in life. Let me ask you this...What is stopping you from taking those things that are perceived as negative and using them as a positive force in your life? The things that make you unique among the masses are your talents, not your impediments. Honestly, I think your current approach is not driving your desired outcome, but instead meet with being your own worst enemy. Now look at the picture above again in a different light.

Let's start here to make sure you are using your full mental focus on the ride vers everything else.

Click here to get started. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133301



EDIT: If your paying attention, the meme says "fork" but the child is holding a spoon. This was done on purpose just so you know, to further help with the point.

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Old May 14th, 2020, 06:47 AM   #21
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If you were around me, I'd hook you up and introduce you to my friend who is a MSF instructor here. Good guy and got me back on the road after I lost my license when moving back to Texas from Illinois.

I do need to drop by and say hi to him. It has been several years since we chat in person.
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