Race tech valves and springs vs. spacers

broken neck · June 2nd, 2013, 10:57 AM

Hell-O there,

Next Saturday will be my first day on a race track, I received a sport riding beginner course. I'm quite excited but a bit nervous too. Can't wait to learn some new techniques and having the chance to practice them in a safe environment and under supervision. I think it will be a good thing for me...

But until then, I have to prepare my Ninjette for that day. Well, not much to prepare, but some upgrade that will make the day better. First, I'll change my IRC stock tires for some Avon Roadriders.

But, my biggest concern is about my fork, I had some troubles with my fork seals, but after having the fork tube "sanded" and all the seals and bushings changed, it's not leaking anymore. But my fork still feels kind of "mushy", even with the race tech springs and valves. We used the recommended oil weight, the right quantity. Our only concern might be about the spacer needed to "fill the gap", not the one you put as preload.

Does anyone would know what length they used? I'd like to compare to see if you got our calculation right, or if we missed something when trying to understand the explication in English.

Thanks for you help.

Motofool · June 2nd, 2013, 11:40 AM

Please, provide a link to the "the explication in English", so we can help you better.

As far as I know, the length of the spacers is determined by the sag of the front suspension when loaded as ready for the track (30~35 mm).

The length of your springs + spacers should be the same as in the stock suspension, regardless the rate of the new spring.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Where_c...oad_spacers%3F

With emulators, the suspension should be soft for quick inputs (like road ripples) and harder for slow inputs (like hard braking).

broken neck · June 2nd, 2013, 11:48 AM

From what I understand, I have to kind of spacer to put back. The one that will make the race tech emulator valve and race tech springs the same height as the OEM springs and spacers.

From what I read, those after market springs are not made for only one model, they are made for several, so they don't have the same length as the OEM.

The other one is to get the right preload for the sag. That one is given when I go to their web site.

I'll come back later with the English web page, I had to fiddle around to find it.

Thanks,

tubarney · June 2nd, 2013, 07:25 PM

You don't need extra spacers.

You can put use them but. Basically an extra spacer will give you more preload.

If it feels mushy and you have race tech valves then you can adjust them.

I would try a heavier weight oil then what you are using. If it feels mushy on both compression and rebound then you need a heavier oil.

Do you know how much fork travel you are using? Are you using all the available fork suspension?

broken neck · June 3rd, 2013, 07:22 AM

Well,

I'm back...

Here's the sheet that might have caused us translation/understanding problems.
http://www.racetech.com/page/title/F...20and%20Actual

For the oil weight, I'm using 15wt in...

for the spacers, I'll start with the one that will make the Race tech springs and valves the same height as the OEM configuration, if I don't have the same, my preload spacer might be not doing its job perfectly.

Once, I'll have that cleared, I'll attack the valve adjustment.

Thanks,

rojoracing53 · June 3rd, 2013, 07:36 AM

Stock preload 22mm is a bit much for springs of the correct rate. I'm going to make a thread tonight titled Rojoracing53's front suspension setup and in it ill cover all this. I will say that RT suggestions were WAY off of what I ended up finding worked for track riding.

Motofool · June 3rd, 2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

........Here's the sheet that might have caused us translation/understanding problems.
http://www.racetech.com/page/title/F...20and%20Actual

You could copy and paste that link into Google Translate and read the whole PDF in French.

http://translate.google.com/

I don't think that this sheet applies to your case, if you are installing valve emulators.
That article is for cartridges that have extra soft rebound springs inside (which pre-load compression should be considered).
That is not the case of our Ninjettes: you will not extend the forks by adding pre-load.

Are you installing valve emulators and springs or something else?

rojoracing53 · June 3rd, 2013, 11:03 AM

Ignore the top out springs in the measure of preload. Our bikes don't have long soft top out springs so its not a factor for us. I learned this from calling RT and asking some details in regards to that confusing sheet.

broken neck · June 3rd, 2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motofool

You could copy and paste that link into Google Translate and read the whole PDF in French.

http://translate.google.com/

I don't think that this sheet applies to your case, if you are installing valve emulators.
That article is for cartridges that have extra soft rebound springs inside (which pre-load compression should be considered).
That is not the case of our Ninjettes: you will not extend the forks by adding pre-load.

Are you installing valve emulators and springs or something else?

It's a good idea, I'll try it tonight, hopefully the translation will be better than what i remember.

I aleready have the emulators and springs in it... Just want to make them work, like I think they should... So, I'll try to check everything again, with the help of ninjette.org, hopefully, it will be better tune by this saturday...

Motofool · June 3rd, 2013, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

It's a good idea, I'll try it tonight..........

Translate these too:

http://www.racetech.com/page/title/E...Tuning%20Guide

http://www.racetech.com/page/title/E...%20They%20Work

broken neck · June 4th, 2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motofool

Translate these too:

http://www.racetech.com/page/title/E...Tuning%20Guide

http://www.racetech.com/page/title/E...%20They%20Work

Didn't have to translate those, it was clearly explain. For the first one, it wasn't the best translation. When it gets very technical, google gets lost in translation sometime, making thing even more difficult.

I'll go with different approach, I fetched my OEM springs and spacers, they're 420mm and 100mm long. I'll try to get the race tech spring length and emulator thickness. By getting the difference between the OEM stuff and the race tech parts, I should get the spacer length I need.

I wish I had any kind of a garage, doing those things in the back alley makes it difficult to work, since I can't leave anything open or in pieces. So the more specs I can find, the easier and faster it is for me to go work on my bike.

Once again, thank for your help and patience.

rojoracing53 · June 4th, 2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

Didn't have to translate those, it was clearly explain. For the first one, it wasn't the best translation. When it gets very technical, google gets lost in translation sometime, making thing even more difficult.

I'll go with different approach, I fetched my OEM springs and spacers, they're 420mm and 100mm long. I'll try to get the race tech spring length and emulator thickness. By getting the difference between the OEM stuff and the race tech parts, I should get the spacer length I need.

I wish I had any kind of a garage, doing those things in the back alley makes it difficult to work, since I can't leave anything open or in pieces. So the more specs I can find, the easier and faster it is for me to go work on my bike.

Once again, thank for your help and patience.

How much do you weigh without gear a d what spring rate did you get?

broken neck · June 4th, 2013, 08:32 PM

I'm at 200 lbs and I took the .70 kg\m springs

For my recommendation, oil level should be at 140mm, oil weight 15wt, 3.0 turns on the emulator valve spring preload and a 10mm spacer for the fork spring preload.

By taking a look at the spring rate, I found out the spring length 370mm, so I'll just need the emulator thickness now to get my spacer length.

Thanks Rojo for making me dig through my old boxes...

rojoracing53 · June 4th, 2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

I'm at 200 lbs and I took the .70 kg\m springs

For my recommendation, oil level should be at 140mm, oil weight 15wt, 3.0 turns on the emulator valve spring preload and a 10mm spacer for the fork spring preload.

By taking a look at the spring rate, I found out the spring length 370mm, so I'll just need the emulator thickness now to get my spacer length.

Thanks Rojo for making me dig through my old boxes...

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but I'm 160lbs running .90kg spring with 15mm of preload just to get the recommended sag of 30-35mm. With this setup I'm using all but the last 4mm of my travel at the track and I've got around 25mm left with everyday commuting. I don't know what the guy at RT was smoking when they programmed their calculator but its so far off its laughable at best. When I called them they recommended the .70kg and I kindly told them their full of **** and ordered .80kg and reordered .90kg when the .80kg where to soft.

broken neck · June 4th, 2013, 08:49 PM

Tabarnak! Et Putaing de merde...

I can understand why everything is so mushy... A bit late to order some heavier rate...

Like you wrote, they were on really good stuff...

Well I guess, I'll try to do the I can with what I have...

Thanks...

Off to bed now...

Well I think, they don't put the right weight of the bike... They state 304 dry, but with 374 (curb weight), I get .85kg for a novice rider doing street.

rojoracing53 · June 4th, 2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

Tabarnak! Et Putaing de merde...

I can understand why everything is so mushy... A bit late to order some heavier rate...

Like you wrote, they were on really good stuff...

Well I guess, I'll try to do the I can with what I have...

Thanks...

Off to bed now...

Well I think, they don't put the right weight of the bike... They state 304 dry, but with 374 (curb weight), I get .85kg for a novice rider doing street.

Yeah for 200 lbs I think that would be a much better bet then .70 but I'd almost recommend the .90kg and use the blue street spring in the emulators instead of the yellow ones like me. That should give you around 35-40mm of sag and a plusher ride then my racing setup.

Just sell you .70kg spring to some other noob unlucky enough to have read my posts

.

Ill be selling my .80kg spring to Cameron who is 30lbs lighter then me.

rojoracing53 · June 5th, 2013, 06:36 AM

Here read this
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...200#post695200

broken neck · June 5th, 2013, 07:27 AM

Thanks,

Your write-up clarifies things a lot for me...

Now, got to find tube and washers...

I know it is recommanded to lift the front by the triple. but in my back alley, I don't have acces to that kind of front stand, I only have the one that raise by the fork, will I be able to change my spacer anyhow? Or am I asking for trouble?

rojoracing53 · June 5th, 2013, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

Thanks,

Your write-up clarifies things a lot for me...

Now, got to find tube and washers...

I know it is recommanded to lift the front by the triple. but in my back alley, I don't have acces to that kind of front stand, I only have the one that raise by the fork, will I be able to change my spacer anyhow? Or am I asking for trouble?

Have you pulled out the fork caps on your bike yet at all?

rojoracing53 · June 5th, 2013, 07:35 AM

I hate the idea but how about that idea of have the bike on a rear center stand and using a floor jack under the motor to lift the front end?

broken neck · June 5th, 2013, 08:11 AM

I haven't pull anything yet... I got my bike last year and the front end bugged me at the start. I have a friend's friend who is a bike mechanic. So he changed the spring last year and installed the emulator. Since I knew nothing about motorcycle and I wasn't equipped, it was better for me and the bike.

But I was plagged with leaking oil seals, so the front end worked better, but never as my moutain bike fork did, so I want to put my nose there, to see what was done and how it was done. Since I'm supposed to go on a track this week end, I wanted to see if I could do something to make it better.

He told me that too, that I could put the rear on my stand and use a car jack to lift the front, but I'm a bit cold about this idea, I don't want to crack or break the bottom of my fairing. So that's why i was asking if I could get away with it by keeping the front wheel on the ground.

Motofool · June 5th, 2013, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken neck

.........Once again, thank for your help and patience.

You are welcome, Thomas

You are now in better hands; follow Rojo's advice, he is very good.

Just in case it could help you:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136034

rojoracing53 · June 5th, 2013, 08:41 AM

Alright so with the rear center stand holding the bike and the front wheel on the ground you can do everything to the front end except change the oil or set the oil height. What you'll do is work on one side at a time and you'll need at least one other helper to compress the fork cap so you can pull the clip(this is going to be a bitch with the front wheel on the ground) and possibly another friend to try and hold the other handlebar up to relieve some of the weight. Once you get on cap off you need to have your helpers lift the front wheel off the ground long enough for you to measure the distance from the top of the preload spacer(the thing touching the bottom of the fork cap you just removed) to the top of the Crome fork tube. Once you get this number subtract it from 20mm and that will give you your current preload setting. From there you can pull out the spacers and springs then fish out the emulator with a long grabbing tool, its going to be under the oil level so you won't see it. Once you have it out you can make adjustments to it as well as change out the colored springs to the other rate.

Just so you have a base you should get two people to help you set sag so you at least know where your at.

As a reference Jiggles is still running the stock front end and I'd say at this point he above your average street 250 rider on track and be doesn't experience any of the chattering problems I or many of the other racers feel. Although he out weighs me by 40lbs(200lbs as well) that difference in weight is nothing compared to the extra stress I apply to the suspension with my faster laps times. I'd say if you not up to racer speeds just yet you may be fine at the track but I guarantee with a better setup you'll grow into a faster pace more easily.

broken neck · June 5th, 2013, 09:15 AM

Well,

Right now, I just wanted to take a look at the preload and the spacer, I just want to make and try to make the front end a little stiffer for saturday. I'm sure I'll be fine on the track, I don't think I'll beat anyone out there, it's more of and advance course, I think, than pure race course. I was just uneasy with the front end diving that much under break.

For the whole thing, I'll ask my good friend if he can help me, he has a garage and he is better equipped than me. So we'll be able to raise the front by the triple and take our time to adjust those things. but it will be another day. But I'll keep you posted.

Very appreciated.

June 2nd, 2013, 10:57 AM	#1
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	Race tech valves and springs vs. spacers Hell-O there, Next Saturday will be my first day on a race track, I received a sport riding beginner course. I'm quite excited but a bit nervous too. Can't wait to learn some new techniques and having the chance to practice them in a safe environment and under supervision. I think it will be a good thing for me... But until then, I have to prepare my Ninjette for that day. Well, not much to prepare, but some upgrade that will make the day better. First, I'll change my IRC stock tires for some Avon Roadriders. But, my biggest concern is about my fork, I had some troubles with my fork seals, but after having the fork tube "sanded" and all the seals and bushings changed, it's not leaking anymore. But my fork still feels kind of "mushy", even with the race tech springs and valves. We used the recommended oil weight, the right quantity. Our only concern might be about the spacer needed to "fill the gap", not the one you put as preload. Does anyone would know what length they used? I'd like to compare to see if you got our calculation right, or if we missed something when trying to understand the explication in English. Thanks for you help.

June 2nd, 2013, 11:40 AM	#2
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	Please, provide a link to the "the explication in English", so we can help you better. As far as I know, the length of the spacers is determined by the sag of the front suspension when loaded as ready for the track (30~35 mm). The length of your springs + spacers should be the same as in the stock suspension, regardless the rate of the new spring. http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Where_c...oad_spacers%3F With emulators, the suspension should be soft for quick inputs (like road ripples) and harder for slow inputs (like hard braking). __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

June 3rd, 2013, 11:03 AM	#8
rojoracing53 Fast-Guy wannabe Name: Jason Location: Brentwood, Ca Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jan '13	Ignore the top out springs in the measure of preload. Our bikes don't have long soft top out springs so its not a factor for us. I learned this from calling RT and asking some details in regards to that confusing sheet.
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

June 5th, 2013, 06:36 AM	#17
rojoracing53 Fast-Guy wannabe Name: Jason Location: Brentwood, Ca Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jan '13	Here read this http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...200#post695200
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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June 2nd, 2013, 11:48 AM	#3
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	From what I understand, I have to kind of spacer to put back. The one that will make the race tech emulator valve and race tech springs the same height as the OEM springs and spacers. From what I read, those after market springs are not made for only one model, they are made for several, so they don't have the same length as the OEM. The other one is to get the right preload for the sag. That one is given when I go to their web site. I'll come back later with the English web page, I had to fiddle around to find it. Thanks,

June 2nd, 2013, 07:25 PM	#4
tubarney ninjette.org sage Name: Brad Location: Sydney Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250r 2010 SE Posts: 573	You don't need extra spacers. You can put use them but. Basically an extra spacer will give you more preload. If it feels mushy and you have race tech valves then you can adjust them. I would try a heavier weight oil then what you are using. If it feels mushy on both compression and rebound then you need a heavier oil. Do you know how much fork travel you are using? Are you using all the available fork suspension?

June 3rd, 2013, 07:22 AM	#5
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	Well, I'm back... Here's the sheet that might have caused us translation/understanding problems. http://www.racetech.com/page/title/F...20and%20Actual For the oil weight, I'm using 15wt in... for the spacers, I'll start with the one that will make the Race tech springs and valves the same height as the OEM configuration, if I don't have the same, my preload spacer might be not doing its job perfectly. Once, I'll have that cleared, I'll attack the valve adjustment. Thanks,

June 3rd, 2013, 07:36 AM	#6
rojoracing53 Fast-Guy wannabe Name: Jason Location: Brentwood, Ca Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jan '13	Stock preload 22mm is a bit much for springs of the correct rate. I'm going to make a thread tonight titled Rojoracing53's front suspension setup and in it ill cover all this. I will say that RT suggestions were WAY off of what I ended up finding worked for track riding.

June 4th, 2013, 08:32 PM	#13
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	I'm at 200 lbs and I took the .70 kg\m springs For my recommendation, oil level should be at 140mm, oil weight 15wt, 3.0 turns on the emulator valve spring preload and a 10mm spacer for the fork spring preload. By taking a look at the spring rate, I found out the spring length 370mm, so I'll just need the emulator thickness now to get my spacer length. Thanks Rojo for making me dig through my old boxes...

June 4th, 2013, 08:49 PM	#15
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	Tabarnak! Et Putaing de merde... I can understand why everything is so mushy... A bit late to order some heavier rate... Like you wrote, they were on really good stuff... Well I guess, I'll try to do the I can with what I have... Thanks... Off to bed now... Well I think, they don't put the right weight of the bike... They state 304 dry, but with 374 (curb weight), I get .85kg for a novice rider doing street.

June 5th, 2013, 07:27 AM	#18
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	Thanks, Your write-up clarifies things a lot for me... Now, got to find tube and washers... I know it is recommanded to lift the front by the triple. but in my back alley, I don't have acces to that kind of front stand, I only have the one that raise by the fork, will I be able to change my spacer anyhow? Or am I asking for trouble?

June 5th, 2013, 07:35 AM	#20
rojoracing53 Fast-Guy wannabe Name: Jason Location: Brentwood, Ca Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jan '13	I hate the idea but how about that idea of have the bike on a rear center stand and using a floor jack under the motor to lift the front end?

June 5th, 2013, 08:11 AM	#21
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	I haven't pull anything yet... I got my bike last year and the front end bugged me at the start. I have a friend's friend who is a bike mechanic. So he changed the spring last year and installed the emulator. Since I knew nothing about motorcycle and I wasn't equipped, it was better for me and the bike. But I was plagged with leaking oil seals, so the front end worked better, but never as my moutain bike fork did, so I want to put my nose there, to see what was done and how it was done. Since I'm supposed to go on a track this week end, I wanted to see if I could do something to make it better. He told me that too, that I could put the rear on my stand and use a car jack to lift the front, but I'm a bit cold about this idea, I don't want to crack or break the bottom of my fairing. So that's why i was asking if I could get away with it by keeping the front wheel on the ground.

June 5th, 2013, 08:41 AM	#23
rojoracing53 Fast-Guy wannabe Name: Jason Location: Brentwood, Ca Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jan '13	Alright so with the rear center stand holding the bike and the front wheel on the ground you can do everything to the front end except change the oil or set the oil height. What you'll do is work on one side at a time and you'll need at least one other helper to compress the fork cap so you can pull the clip(this is going to be a bitch with the front wheel on the ground) and possibly another friend to try and hold the other handlebar up to relieve some of the weight. Once you get on cap off you need to have your helpers lift the front wheel off the ground long enough for you to measure the distance from the top of the preload spacer(the thing touching the bottom of the fork cap you just removed) to the top of the Crome fork tube. Once you get this number subtract it from 20mm and that will give you your current preload setting. From there you can pull out the spacers and springs then fish out the emulator with a long grabbing tool, its going to be under the oil level so you won't see it. Once you have it out you can make adjustments to it as well as change out the colored springs to the other rate. Just so you have a base you should get two people to help you set sag so you at least know where your at. As a reference Jiggles is still running the stock front end and I'd say at this point he above your average street 250 rider on track and be doesn't experience any of the chattering problems I or many of the other racers feel. Although he out weighs me by 40lbs(200lbs as well) that difference in weight is nothing compared to the extra stress I apply to the suspension with my faster laps times. I'd say if you not up to racer speeds just yet you may be fine at the track but I guarantee with a better setup you'll grow into a faster pace more easily.

June 5th, 2013, 09:15 AM	#24
broken neck ninjette.org guru Name: Thomas Location: Montréal Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R Special Edition (sold), 2017 CRF250 Rally Posts: 384	Well, Right now, I just wanted to take a look at the preload and the spacer, I just want to make and try to make the front end a little stiffer for saturday. I'm sure I'll be fine on the track, I don't think I'll beat anyone out there, it's more of and advance course, I think, than pure race course. I was just uneasy with the front end diving that much under break. For the whole thing, I'll ask my good friend if he can help me, he has a garage and he is better equipped than me. So we'll be able to raise the front by the triple and take our time to adjust those things. but it will be another day. But I'll keep you posted. Very appreciated.