Octane, Money and You??? What do you run in your 250 and why?

[ninjabrewer]

Originally Posted by kkim

coincidence... as I've always used regular and mine still backfires on occasion.

ditto,

also, I am a cheap skate, the owners manual recommends 87, so that is what I use

nb

[CANTFUNCTION]

I run 87 because it is what is recommended for the 250. I usually fill up at BP but one time I filled up at a mom and pops store and the bike didn't run right. So now I use BP or QuikTrip.

[CodE-E]

My 2009 European fuel injection model's manual says I should use a minimum of RON 91. Since RON 95 isn't more expensive here than the slightly lower stuff, I've always used 95.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by CodE-E

Since RON 95 isn't more expensive here than the slightly lower stuff, I've always used 95.

if they are priced the same, why do they even bother selling the 91?

[CodE-E]

Originally Posted by kkim

if they are priced the same, why do they even bother selling the 91?

No idea. Maybe some older vehicles like the RON 90 stuff a bit more or something.

[bogdanb]

Originally Posted by CodE-E

My 2009 European fuel injection model's manual says I should use a minimum of RON 91. Since RON 95 isn't more expensive here than the slightly lower stuff, I've always used 95.

Here the lowest octane available is 95.

[Strider]

I asked this in another Thread , but I'll bring it up here as well ...

I've heard other riders say that using 91 instead of 87 makes them get better gas mileage ... anyone know the real truth to this?
Anyone I've asked just says 'about 5 mpg better' but I've seen no real proof ...

[CC Cowboy]

Since the speedway is right next to the airport I have a hard time deciding where to get my fuel. I decided on the av fuel because it makes the bike fly.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Strider

I've heard other riders say that using 91 instead of 87 makes them get better gas mileage ... anyone know the real truth to this?
Anyone I've asked just says 'about 5 mpg better' but I've seen no real proof ...

No truth to it.

[Strider]

That's what I figured , that it was all talk ... thanks for confirming it Alex

[Purspeed]

87 octane is better than 91 in almost every way other than preventing "pre-ignition" or "engine knocking." This is when the cumbustion chamber ignites before the piston reaches near Top Dead Center (depending on degrees of timing). So, the higher octane is less explosive so prevent "pre-ignition."

~End of Purspeed's Lesson of the Day.

[demp]

I'm pretty sure I found a warning sticker like that on my bike as well, but it wasn't on the gas tank... I think it was hiden under one of the side fairings, I'll take a look later, but if i recall right it was asking for 91 octane specifically (not that im argueing that it's better in any way)

[Daeldren]

I used 87 octane and the occasional additive,




too soon?

[kkim]

you might want to think of removing that. if one person made that mistake ( if ), others could do it too. I don't want those others to be from this board due to your post.

[Alex]

I'm fine with it. You can't fix stupid, and as well-meaning as this forum is, it certainly isn't going to stamp it out worldwide. It says energy drink on it, for crissakes.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Daeldren

I used 87 octane and the occasional additive,




too soon?

That's a suppository right?

[tjkamper]

85 up here in the Wasatch Mountains seems to work without any problems.

[Cali619]

on a side note related to fuel, has anyone had any issues with the new shorter gas nozzles when filling up? I have so went to another gas statiion with longer ones

[CC Cowboy]

Is there a difference in octane?

[Xicor]

A brief description of "Octane".

Octanes primary function in gasoline used in internal combustion engines is to inhibit the combustibility of the fuel. Yes you read that right, the higher the octane the less explosive your gas is. There is a legitimate reason you want this to occur, I'll get to that in a later paragraph.

First off I would like to touch lightly on the "cleanliness" topic. There certainly is a difference in gasoline cleanliness from different refiners. There is not however any difference in two different octane rated petrols from the same manufacturer, though their marketing team will tell you otherwise! Shell 87 is just as clean as shell 93 they just have different amounts of octane.

Ok now for the technical issues.

Engines produce heat in many ways: combusting fuel, friction, spark, compression (which is just friction in air but for our purposes we'll label it separate). Gasoline in your engine is "told" to explode by the timing of the spark sent through your spark plug. In extreme heat situations the heat inside your engine can cause the fuel to flash before the spark tells it too. This is bad! This is what is called "spark knock". the knock you're hearing is from gas exploding before the piston is at (or near) Top Dead Center(TDC). Enter Octane. By making the gas less explosive the heat in the engine will no longer cause the fuel to ignite prematurely. Thus the spark plug can accurately time the explosion.

What Octane rating should you run? Well the ultimate decision is up to you. However, if you test it you should find that you will get optimal performance as well as mileage by using the manufacturers recommended minimum octane rating. Any higher and your losing explosiveness and power, any lower and you risk spark knock and severe engine damage.

Some bikes/cars etc. require a higher rated fuel. This can be for many reason but all of them have to do with more heat in the combustion chamber. For example: Boosted engines (turbo/supercharged), high compression engines, high RPM engines and many others.

Q&A:

Q: Can you hurt an engine by running too high an octane rating?
A: No.

Q: Can you hurt an engine by using too low an octane rating?
A: Definitely yes! And you can not go by listening for spark knock as highly damaging preignition (detonation/spark knock) can occur at levels too low for you to notice. Especially with wind and exhaust noise!



Thank you for your time,
Tyler

P.S. don't take my word for it, do some research!

[Duvivr6]

I put 87 on it cause it dont need anything more plus I bought my bike to save gas!!

My car does about 18.5 MPG and has 1100% (NOT a TYPO) more horse power haha!

[istreefitty]

Well I plan on jsut using shell because I just found out most all HI gas stations use ethenol. BLAH.....that is a giant rip off. I have found a shell in Honolulu (about a 20 min drive from my house) that DOESNT use that god awful excuse for getting of foreign oil (Thanks a lot Loves Corn so Much I Would Probibly Pleasure Myself with it Association of America LCSMIWPPMWIAA for short). Honestly it is almost as bad as the corn syrup commercials

Corn Propaganda

As far as octane rating goes (as I am sure that it has been noted on here) has little to do with cleaning your engine, but the additives do. Great post on octane info. Also IF this bike were FI would it act like a car (that changes timing according to gas)??

[paterick4o8]

ever since this thread I've only been using 87.

just filled up about 30 min ago at Costo.

3.78 gallons for $10.20 here in CA. I went 205 miles.

so guess that equates to getting 54.23 MPG after mixed city and hwy riding, with some hard acceleration in the twisties as well

[Apex]

I just use 87. Increasing octane yields a power loss on our tiny motors. The only way I'd upgrade to 89 would be to beat some knocking. I may dump 89 in the bike when I hit the track on the 25th just to be sure I won't detonate. It is going to be a hot one that day!

[noche_caliente]

Welcome Tyler!

[Banzai]

Wawa 87. Gives me better gas mileage than anything else around here. The bonus is it's usually 6-10 cents a gallon cheaper, too!

[minuslars]

I run 87. There's no reason to run any higher octane than needed, especially since the current method of boosting octane is by adding ethanol. Therefore, higher octane gas has more ethanol. And it seems to be pretty much generally accepted that ethanol is not the best thing for your engine.

[Xicor]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

Welcome Tyler!

Thank you.

[Matt_F]

I've been running premium (93 octane) in my bike. I read the sticker under the passenger seat and saw it said 91, but didn't notice it was RON and not the US method.

Is the sticker under the passenger seat a new thing? It answers a lot of questions that I see threads about.

[nate-bama]

87, though i should run higher as my ride is red

[Apex]

Originally Posted by nate-bama

87, though i should run higher as my ride is red

Your bike is red? I think you need to run 75.

[karlosdajackal]

Originally Posted by kkim

if they are priced the same, why do they even bother selling the 91?

Originally Posted by bogdanb

Here the lowest octane available is 95.

Originally Posted by SteveL

Mine gets RON 95 the lowest available in Switzerland.

Steve

They don't bother in Ireland, the lowest I can find is 95, and the highest I can find is 95. (could get 98 a couple of years ago). All I need now is the ninja to put it into, so many bloody forms to fill in

Originally Posted by BlueRaven

I'm suprised to see shell-canada in the top tier companies. I only use 91 in all my vehicle and had ****** gas mileage when i used shell once. Esso in canada is the gas that i will get the best mileage.

I used to use esso in my fuel injected cars and it was crap, then i switch to shell and it was better, then shell v-power and it was much smoother to drive and i got more distance out of a tank of v-power.

In the last couple of years, Shell sold out there retail stores and seem to want to just make the fuel to sell to the gas stations. I think quality is falling as the stations want cheaper product to sell (more margin for them).

On my current FI car, Shell 95 runs like dirt, Esso 95 runs like rocket fuel, so thats what i use now.

Anyway I have a question! about Carb Vs FI in relation to fuel
On my fuel injected cars, the car has an air mass sensor, a lambada(spelling?) and exhaust gas sensors. The ECU (engine control unit) of the car can apparently use all that data to slightly tune the fuel delivery based on the performance of the fuel as its running. So when I change from a tank of shell to esso, i get an immediate boost in performance until I've driven about 10 mins then the car tones it back down again. This is all the the name of less emmisions and longer engine life. Most small engine euro cars demand a minimum of 95 ron anyway. I believe a performance car with a small engine like the latest EVO demands 105 ron.

Does anyone know if the fuel injected 250 has similar smart engine management. 95 may be a requirement but i go up a level when i can just in case the engine run a bit hot from time to time. Sure its a couple more pennies at the pumps but it works out cheaper than if you engine runs a bit hot and starts knocking. At the time I could get 98 it was like €1.10 for a litre of 95 and €1.15 for a litre of 98 vpower. Over a 60 litre tank in my car that means it cost me €3 extra, but i reckon it was worth it for the extra mileage I got out of the tank.

I can see why its pointless to go up on a carb'd bike unless your going to tune it to the fuel. On an FI system (a smart one) it should pretty much tune itself (within some parameters). Obviously its going to keep the operating temperature the same at all costs.

[Xicor]

Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor

The sensors that you are talking about in a car are used sense stoichiometric air fuel ratio. It will use this data to adjust the mixture either more rich or more lean. It can not adjust spark timing to cut down on knocking. Many more modern cars will have Knock Sensors built into the block to detect spark knock. They can use this data to adjust the spark timing and decrease the detonation. However they do not have the ability to adjust far enough to account for a drastic change in octane. It is still best to run the manufacturers recommended minimum rated fuel.

Fuel injected bikes are, with few exception, entirely different animals. Most all FI bikes do not have O2 sensors in the exhaust and cannot adjust their air fuel mixture. They run on set ratios that are programmed in the ECM by the manufacturer. Some very large and pricey bikes do have the ability to adjust the ratio on the fly ie: Goldwing. No bikes that I am aware of use a knock sensor to detect preignition.

As for carbureted vehicles, bike, car or even lawn mower. You are correct, they can not adjust for anything automatically.

Thank you for your time,
Tyler

[karlosdajackal]

Originally Posted by Xicor

Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor

The sensors that you are talking about in a car are used sense stoichiometric air fuel ratio. It will use this data to adjust the mixture either more rich or more lean. It can not adjust spark timing to cut down on knocking. Many more modern cars will have Knock Sensors built into the block to detect spark knock. They can use this data to adjust the spark timing and decrease the detonation. However they do not have the ability to adjust far enough to account for a drastic change in octane. It is still best to run the manufacturers recommended minimum rated fuel.

Fuel injected bikes are, with few exception, entirely different animals. Most all FI bikes do not have O2 sensors in the exhaust and cannot adjust their air fuel mixture. They run on set ratios that are programmed in the ECM by the manufacturer. Some very large and pricey bikes do have the ability to adjust the ratio on the fly ie: Goldwing. No bikes that I am aware of use a knock sensor to detect preignition.

As for carbureted vehicles, bike, car or even lawn mower. You are correct, they can not adjust for anything automatically.

Thank you for your time,
Tyler

Thanks

[Alex]

More and more bikes are coming with O2 sensors that allow closed-loop fuel injection. Almost all BMW's, both their boxers and inlines, many Hondas, including the VFR, and a number of bikes from other manufacturers as well. It was rare 10 years ago, but it's getting less and less rare.

[DarkNinja52]

91 , why not

[mrlmd]

To Mo1981 - and all the others using anything higher than 87 -
You would see your line of thinking is flawed if you had no knocking with the 87, and if you got an extra 1-2 mpg, you'd save even more money. The bike is designed for 87, no reason for 91, you're losing gas mileage, power, and money all at the same time. Don't try and second guess the Kawi engineers and think you are doing anything to better your engine with 91 octane.

[Cedilla]

I just use 87 octane. I only buy gas from stations that are busy, I figure that the gas has not been sitting as long. I don't know if its any better, but I'm sure it's not worse. I also don't buy gas when the tanker truck is filling up the underground tanks, I read somewhere that it stirs up all the crap at the bottom of the tanks, and it can get into your gas tank.

[jonthechron]

The grape flavor give extra HP

[miks]

Don't know if you guys have it over there, but I use Shell V-Power. $2x for a full tank, don't mind the extra $1-2 for better fuel.