Buggy wiring help!

[conor07]

Hi guys. i thought i would post here because most of my googleing seems to take me to this webisght. i have a 250 ninja engine i have been putting on a gocart. if i look up the engine number it tells me its a 1996 ex250 engine. i bought it bare with no wiring and picked up a loom and all the boxes that connect to it off ebay. the original plan was to use the unmodied ninja loom with original switch gear to simplify things but its getting very expensive buying all the individual switches and stuff. so i have disided to make my own loom with only necessary bits. i got the pic of the full loom and removed all the bits that i dont think i need. i was hopeing somewhere here could have a look and point out anything i missed. the 3 things im stuck on are

what goes to the 2 red wires on the coils. just power?
the green wire out of the CDI ECU thing that normal goes to all the safety stuff just gets grounded?

witch wire would be the best place to put an off switch to actually stop the engine running (main battery will have a cut off switch for when its not being used)

anyway im sure you guys have all seen the full colour wireing diagram here.

http://faq.ninja250.org/images/a/a4/...matic_-_R4.pdf

and here is my cut down one. im not sure what the rezolution will be like but if you cant read stuff all the lables and wire locations are the same as the original



Thanks!

EDIT. so if you found this thread trying to find how to wire up a ex250 engine for a buggy or go kart then look no further! i have my ignition working with this exact layout. its bare bones and all you need if your just trying to run the engine.

[InvisiBill]

The red wire to the coils is powered from the kill switch. It's simply switched power through the IGN fuse.

Yes, the green wire is just ground through the safety switches. If you're using any of the stock starter circuit, the yellow/green wire is similarly ground through the clutch/neutral switches for the starter circuit relay.

[JohnnyBravo]

[conor07]

thanks guys busted out the knife and wire cutters and got to work. cut it down according to my diagram and fitted it up to the engine. i had a dig though my bits box and found a 110o resistor so hopefully that works. cant fire it up tonight coz its to late and it has no manifold so will probs be loud :P





also i read on another post that the valve that goes under the fuel tank is vacuum operated. is that just to close it to stop fuel leaking on the floor over night or does it actually have a roll in metering the fuel to the carbs? also this may sound like a stupid question but it has a water pump right? or does the radiator just flow form the hot water rizeing though it? i woudl like to mount it lower then the stock position but i dont want this to stop flow.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by conor07

also i read on another post that the valve that goes under the fuel tank is vacuum operated. is that just to close it to stop fuel leaking on the floor over night or does it actually have a roll in metering the fuel to the carbs? also this may sound like a stupid question but it has a water pump right? or does the radiator just flow form the hot water rizeing though it? i woudl like to mount it lower then the stock position but i dont want this to stop flow.

The petcock has a vacuum-activated shut-off valve. It's just on or off, based on whether there's vac or not.

Yes, there's a water pump. Note that the cooling system uses a single loop, not a bypass system like cars have. When the thermostat is closed, there's essentially no flow in the system (which makes it harder for the heated coolant in the engine to get to the thermostat to open it). Look up some of the Thermo-Bob threads for more detail.

[conor07]

so as predicted it cranks but no spark lol. its wired exactly as my diagram shows and with the red coils wire straight to the battery. i checked all the plugs and conections and everything is good. and i had a go of afew different resistors on the grey wire and still nothing. not sure where to go from here.

[conor07]

so with eveything powered up. there is no power if i measure the 2 tabs on the coils.

should there be 12v on the 2 tabs when there is power but not running or cranking

does the metal part that has the bolt holes on the coils need to be grounded?

[conor07]

ok so there is power between the red wire and the metal mounting point on the coils. and if i charge them straight off the battery they fire. im suspicious of the resistors but appart from measuring them whitch i have done and trying afew combinaions idk what else to do

[conor07]

okayy. so i can charge the oil with the 2 tabs. that tells me that the 2 tabs should have power from the CDI. the red should have power direct and the green and black should have power constant from the CDI however they dont. what would stop the CDI putting out power to the green and black wire.

[RacinNinja]

The coils need to be grounded through the mounting holes. One tab is constant 12 volt power, the other tab is a trigger from the CDI.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

The coils need to be grounded through the mounting holes. One tab is constant 12 volt power, the other tab is a trigger from the CDI.

Are you sure about this? My basic CDI knowledge led me to believe that the igniter was providing a switched ground on the black and green wires to complete the circuit. Replacing a standard coil with a CoP (with absolutely no external ground) works just fine. If the red wire supplies voltage and the mount grounds it, with the black|green wire just being a signal, the CoP shouldn't work since there would be no ground to complete the circuit.

The ZX600 coils are wired up the same way as ours, with red coming from the kill switch and black|green to the igniter. None of the wiring diagrams show any sort of grounding on the coil body, for whatever that's worth.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Are you sure about this? My basic CDI knowledge led me to believe that the igniter was providing a switched ground on the black and green wires to complete the circuit. Replacing a standard coil with a CoP (with absolutely no external ground) works just fine. If the red wire supplies voltage and the mount grounds it, with the black|green wire just being a signal, the CoP shouldn't work since there would be no ground to complete the circuit.

The ZX600 coils are wired up the same way as ours, with red coming from the kill switch and black|green to the igniter. None of the wiring diagrams show any sort of grounding on the coil body, for whatever that's worth.

Factory Ninjette coils need to be grounded. Why, I dunno, why it's not shown on the diagram, I dunno. I just know they do.

SOME 2 wire COP's don't, SOME 2 wire COP's ground through the mounting tab, three wire COP's have the ground in the harness as do 4 wire.

SOME aftermarket coils don't need to be grounded. SOME do.

One other I noticed is that in the diagram provided, the CDI has no ground connection but it has power. It needs a ground also. Electricity has to have a complete circuit.........on NewGens it's a Black/Yellow striped wire. Can't imaging it would be different on the old gens.

[RacinNinja]

Testing procedure in the manual has the bar through the center as a ground. So, it should be grounded to the chassis as well.

[verboten1]

When mounted on the bike, they are grounded. In order for a transformer to induce the voltage to create a spark, it has to be grounded, otherwise, you will not have any magnetic field to collapse, which in turn induces the step up in voltage!

[adouglas]

Wires? What wires? We don't need no stinkin' wires....

[Triple Jim]

As a point of information, a CDI system won't have 12v connected to the coil. One terminal will be grounded, and the other will get the multi-hundred volt charge of the capacitor in the CDI unit dumped into it at the appropriate time. If one terminal gets 12v power, it's almost certainly a transistor switched electronic ignition system, not a capacitor discharge ignition system.

[verboten1]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Wires? What wires? We don't need no stinkin' wires....

Kinda lost in buggy wiring as well. Pretty sure they just need turn signals.

[conor07]

Still no luck coils are grounded now. Tired with 1 or 2 100o resistors. All the stuff mesure right. CDI has power and contenunity between all the places there is meant to.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by conor07

Still no luck coils are grounded now. Tired with 1 or 2 100o resistors. All the stuff mesure right. CDI has power and contenunity between all the places there is meant to.

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

One other I noticed is that in the diagram provided, the CDI has no ground connection but it has power. It needs a ground also. Electricity has to have a complete circuit.........on NewGens it's a Black/Yellow striped wire. Can't imaging it would be different on the old gens.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

One other I noticed is that in the diagram provided, the CDI has no ground connection but it has power. It needs a ground also. Electricity has to have a complete circuit.........on NewGens it's a Black/Yellow striped wire. Can't imaging it would be different on the old gens.

His modified wiring diagram does have a black/yellow ground wire going to the igniter. The zoom on the image makes it look a funny color for me, but it's basically the only one coming off the negative battery terminal.


There's not much left to go wrong. All the igniter wires are hooked up - brown/blue fused power, black/yellow ground, gray with resistor, green/black ground from the safety switches, black|green to the coils, black and yellow to the pickup coil. White Main power from the battery feeds the gray igniter wire, the brown wire to the IGN fuse, and the red wire to the coils. Everything you need should be there.

[conor07]

Yeah the ignitor box has a black and yellow ground. I guess if it's all wired right the next thing to try would be a different CDI box?

[conor07]

so i found a thread saying that the grey resisted wire should be powered befoer all the others. made sure i did that in still no results. this seems odd to me but might be correct. with eveything wired up. the there is 12v between the red wire on the coil and ground. there is also 12v between the green or black wire (depending on left or right coil) or ground. is that correct?

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Testing procedure in the manual has the bar through the center as a ground. So, it should be grounded to the chassis as well.

On my 500 (which is technically different, but the ignition systems should be pretty much the same I think), procedure A gives me nothing. My manual says to test resistance between the two terminals. The ~3Ω result leads me to believe the two terminals are simply the two ends of the primary winding.

But I think test B and comments here about grounding the center bar clear some things up for me. I've always wondered how the secondary circuit was completed. You have the + going out the plug wire, into the plug, and jumping the gap to the grounded (via being screwed into the head) side of the plug. But how does the circuit get completed with the other end of the secondary winding? If that's tied into the center bar and grounded to the frame, that would explain the other half of the secondary winding circuit, and that the coils need to be grounded to operate.

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

As a point of information, a CDI system won't have 12v connected to the coil. One terminal will be grounded, and the other will get the multi-hundred volt charge of the capacitor in the CDI unit dumped into it at the appropriate time. If one terminal gets 12v power, it's almost certainly a transistor switched electronic ignition system, not a capacitor discharge ignition system.

Everyone always says CDI, but I noticed that my manual specifically says the 500 has a transistorized ignition, and the box is labelled as IC Igniter, not CDI Igniter like I had in my head. It's obvious from looking at any of the wiring diagrams that the coils have 12V from the kill switch, so it would seem that these aren't CDI at all, despite the prevalence of the acronym.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by conor07

so i found a thread saying that the grey resisted wire should be powered befoer all the others. made sure i did that in still no results. this seems odd to me but might be correct.

Not really. When you turn the key on, the ignition switch feeds power from the white Main wire to the gray igniter wire and the brown accessory wire. The brown wire feeds the j-box circuit with the IGN fuse, which powers the igniter. So the only difference in timing is how long it takes the electricity to move down the slightly longer wire path through the fuse box. There isn't any hardware involved to specifically affect the timing of when those circuits are powered - they both come on when you turn the key on.

Originally Posted by conor07

with eveything wired up. the there is 12v between the red wire on the coil and ground.

Yup, red is just switched power.

Originally Posted by conor07

there is also 12v between the green or black wire (depending on left or right coil) or ground. is that correct?

Based on the stuff above, I believe the two terminals are simply in and out for the primary winding. If you've still got the red wire hooked up to the in terminal, you'll see 12V between the out terminal and ground too; it's the same test as above, just before and after the coil. If it's really a transistor ignition switching the ground on and off, you should see continuity to ground on the black|green wire turning on and off with when the plug should fire (though standard meters might not be fast enough to pick up the switching).

[conor07]

GREAT SUCSESS. so i finally have spark! after all that i changed the 100o resistor to a 104o resistor and now it works fine. guess it was super touchy. il make an updated loom diagram and put it in my first comment. i was super over finding thread after thread of buggy wireing stuff and never actualy finding a streight and most importantly complete diagram or answere.


now my new problem :P i have never worked with carbies in my life. i have done plenty of fuel injected cars and stuff but never carbs so beare with me. i have a good strong spark now but if i crank the engine i get not a single sighn of it fireing. i looked at diagrams of the carbs and tryed to work out where everything went. so for my 1st test i sprayed some starting fluid in the carbs and no luck. 2nd test i tryed spraying it in the spark pug holes in to the cylinders and still no luck. it said the fuel line was the one going into the side of the car. so i rigged this up.

its just a cup feeding into the fuel line. i put fuel in the cup and it drained out so i topped it up and it dident drain all the way. i assume this was the carb bowls filling up. cranked it a bunch more and tried more starting fluid but no luck. also tried swapping the spark leads around. at this point i disided i would try clean the carbs but after takeing the bottom off the look nice and clean so disided not to. also took the rocker cover off to see if it was nice and clean and the engine looks all to be in good nic i wish my car was this clean lol







all the vacume lines are correct and the one to the fuel peetcock valve thing is blocked off. however in the diagrams i cant find this one labled



its about 1ft long and comes out of a plastic T peice that joins the carbs together. if i blow in it fuel comes out the holes on the carb inlets. im guessing its just a breather but idk why its so big or long.

so i guess basicly is there any reason im missing for it to not fire? is there a choke or something i need to use? or some priming method? there is a little black nob that opens the thottle a little so i just set that to as open as it would go (i would guess about 5% of full thottle) also had a go at pumping the accselatrator and stuff while cranking and starter fluiding and so on.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by conor07

its about 1ft long and comes out of a plastic T peice that joins the carbs together. if i blow in it fuel comes out the holes on the carb inlets. im guessing its just a breather but idk why its so big or long.

Yes, that's just a vent tube. I assume the length is just to make it harder for any junk to work its way into the carb bowls. A lot of people remove it, but I personally feel the tube helps keep junk out (as long as you make sure it can breathe freely).

Originally Posted by conor07

so i guess basicly is there any reason im missing for it to not fire? is there a choke or something i need to use? or some priming method? there is a little black nob that opens the thottle a little so i just set that to as open as it would go (i would guess about 5% of full thottle) also had a go at pumping the accselatrator and stuff while cranking and starter fluiding and so on.

The black knob is the idle adjuster. As you found, it simply holds the throttle open more or less, depending on how far it's screwed in or out. Screwed all the way in is most likely not the proper setting. Start with just a little bit (opening the throttle manually with the grip will accomplish the same thing, it just requires you to hold it).

There should be a choke plunger on the carbs too. I don't have any specifics on it - the diagrams might be helpful, or someone with firsthand experience will chime in soon, I'm sure.

[conor07]

closed the black knob and seemed to make a big difference haha. runs on 1 cylinder now and 2 with some starting fluid. so seems like its time for some fine tuning and all will be good. now that its proven to run i can work on the rest of the frame around it. thanks for the help guys il be sure to post an update latter.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Alex]

Great news! Fantastic thread.