My Experience with the EcoTrons EFI kit

[lolibater]

My Experience with the EcoTrons EFI kit

First off, I just wanted to clear the air. A few people surely think I am here just to complain about the kit. I assure you that is not the case. I am trying everything in my power to make this kit work properly. I find this kit very interesting, and am happy that other users have had such success with it. This bike and kit have both been a valuable learning experience for me, and I have in fact had fun with both the components, and the way they work together.

When I first purchased my bike in early August of this year, I was told by the “electrical engineer” that this EFI kit was installed perfectly, and that I would never need to make any adjustments. It was my mistake for not researching this kit more, but I had no prior knowledge of motorcycles, and it seemed to be running as stated by the current owner at the time. There were no other modifications.

At this time it was the middle of summer, and I lived in an area that was consistently over 100* every day. The bike started fine and ran fine every day that I commuted to work. I decided to take a trip to Yosemite national park, and started to have trouble as soon as I reached about 8000 feet. The owner had left the bike in Rich mode, causing it to run horribly sluggish in the high elevation.

Once I had gotten back down home, I had put it back into Eco mode, so that it could dynamically map the AFR. It commuted fine after that as well, but I had no way of proving it was due to moving it to Eco mode, as it was running fine at my home elevation previously.

Fast forward to around late September / early October. A coworker of mine tells me that my valves will need to be adjusted soon, and that I should look into either getting them done, or learning how to do them myself. I looked on ninja250.org, a Haynes manual that I purchased, as well as the official Kawasaki (TDC) method, multiple times. We decided the easiest way would be the 250org method; making sure the lobes were not pushing down on the tappets, ensuring that you can wiggle each with your finger before adjusting the clearance. During this, we had blown a fuse by grounding a wire. At the time, I was convinced that this was the main event that contributed to all of our future problems. We replaced the fuse and wire, and the bike still wouldn’t start afterwards.

This is about the time that my friend and I were on the original EcoTrons thread seeking help. After adjusting the valves multiple times, as other forum users seemed convinced that we kept doing them wrong, not much had changed. The bike started fine most of the time, every now and then it had a hard start, but mostly it ran ok for the time being. We put on pod filters, and slip on cans, neither of which seemed to effect the actual performance of the EFI kit; mostly just made it louder.

I had found a few other things that the previous owner had done wrong in his “perfect install.” He had fixed the engine temperature sensor to the frame. Obviously that wasn’t too smart. The tubing used for the EFI kit was excessively long, and the fuel pressure regulator was not providing the proper pressure due to a leak. The previous owner had also broken off the idle adjustment screw, and had it rigged up with an improperly sized replacement which moved.

I fixed all these issues. I even paid a professional mechanic to come over to my house and give my bike a good once over, just to make sure it wasn’t anything mechanically related, as most people were still set on at this point. The guy who came over stated that my valves were adjusted perfectly, and needed no adjustment. He agreed that the tubing and pump location were far from optimal. We took the entire EcoTrons kit off, and reinstalled it with high quality, properly lengthened tubing. He also synced my throttle bodies, as one of them was slightly out of sync. At this point the bike would not start after being reassembled. The guy was seriously stumped, as he had just reinstalled the kit completely. He even gave me a new set of o-rings for my fuel pressure regulator, which made it run better, but not completely normal. I decided to flash the most recent s19 file that Matt had provided me, thinking that perhaps the fact that the ECU had been learning its data with all of these misplaced sensors was making it not run now that the sensors were in the right spot.

After flashing the s19, the bike fired right up and seemed to be working fine. I was happy for the time being. I commuted on it, and it was fine for the most part of the week. I had trouble getting it started as the following week came. The issues started getting progressively worse and worse, and the bike smelled like it was running richer and richer as time went on. I drove it around my neighborhood at 2000 RPM for about 30 min to log low rpm AFR data, thinking that this would help. It didn’t. I decided to leave the bike off for a few days because it was frustrating me.

This past Friday I started it back up and it seemed to be running fine again. I ran it around town a bit that day, and it started up fine after being taken to the gas station. I thought; let’s give it a test on Saturday to see how it really runs. I noticed that my tires were low on air this Saturday, so I left my house to get some air before I headed over to my friend’s house. When I started the bike on Saturday morning it was pretty cold out. The bike didn’t want to seem to hold an idle for some reason. I manually held the throttle at 1500 RPM until it warmed up. The idle stayed at my set idle of 1500 after that perfectly fine, so I didn’t think much of it. I went to the gas station, got air, and the bike started up fine after that.

On my way to my friend’s house, I needed to stop for gas. I thought to myself as I was pulling into the gas station; it would really suck if I turn the bike off and it doesn’t start again. That’s exactly what happened. I turn it off, fill it up, and it just cranks.

I wait there a few hours before my friend gets there, leaving the bike off the whole time. When he gets there, he was able to start it, but it was running richer than it ever has, was breaking up extremely bad at any rpm over 2000, and would not allow revs past 5000. We tried bump starting to clear all the crap out. After about 3 bumps every time, the engine would fire back up, but had the same symptoms from before. Eventually 2 hours after this we just left it at the gas station to pick up Sunday (yesterday).

We bring the bike back and put the stock exhaust back on, thinking that it was a backpressure issue with the aftermarket slip ons, as they had no baffles, and were basically a straight pipe. I flashed the s19 over again, as that’s what got it to work when the professional had come over to my house the previous weekend. The bike started right up with the stock exhaust. We had to hold the idle manually while it was starting up the first time, but after idling for about 15 minutes, it held it on its own perfectly. I was able to ride it down the street, and the bike felt better than it ever has. I even stalled the engine at the stop sign by my house, and thought it wouldn't fire back up again, but it did. I thought everything was good to go finally. I rode back to my friend’s garage and turned the bike off while we ate dinner. After about an hour we went to go fire it up again, and the bike is just cranking, making popping noises in the lower end like its backfiring, but not starting. We couldn't get it started, so I left it at his house.

I would really like to get this kit working. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am seriously all tapped out after confirming almost every mechanical system on this bike multiple times in the past few months. Valves are perfect, TB's are perfect, compression is there and equal, the injectors are spraying.

[lolibater]

@ecotrons @choneofakind @138 @EMSRacer07 @lgk @n4mwd @Jiggles

If any of you don't want to be tagged up in this whole situation, just let me know. I completely understand.

[Jono]

I have never had an issue with my carbs. Maybe you should just ditch the crappy EFI kit and get some carbs off ebay!

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by Jono

I have never had an issue with my carbs. Maybe you should just ditch the crappy EFI kit and get some carbs off ebay!

Lucky you I am trying to gather the parts needed to move back to carbs, just in case I never get the EFI working. I have the actual carb assembly, but no hoses or anything else. Can you PM me a list of the other parts I need to gather for that? I would like to keep this thread strictly for troubleshooting. Thanks.

[lgk]

you said it smelled like it was running rich, do the logs confirm this?

[lolibater]

The last set of data that I was able to log was right before I left my house on Saturday when it was running "correctly." I sent my logs from that day to @choneofakind, and he said that in the top end i was getting something about 12.2 IIRC.

Chone, correct me if I'm wrong here; you know more about the data I sent you than I do.

After filling it up to the top on Saturday, and getting it to run extremely crappy that same day, it was only run for a total of under 5 miles, and the gas is visibly/noticeably lower in the tank now. To me, that means super rich.

[lgk]

the system should tune to around 13.5 to 14.0.
if thats the case your plugs are probably fouled...


did the system get richer as time went on or was it rich from the get go?
your o2 sensors could be fouled as well.

i would suggest taking it to the dyno, to be sure.

[EMSRacer07]

You know what I think it might be, that i had similar issues with. Possibly you have the injector connected to the wrong one or o2 sensor connected wrong. Doing this wont throw a check engine code but would make it run rich because the computer is reading the wrong cylinders.

If you look at the injector wires and o2 wires they have a code writen on them that specifies which cylinder that they are suppose to be on. (pretty snazzy in case wires go everywhere)

I feel that is your issue.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by lgk

the system should tune to around 13.5 to 14.0.
if thats the case your plugs are probably fouled...


did the system get richer as time went on or was it rich from the get go?
your o2 sensors could be fouled as well.

i would suggest taking it to the dyno, to be sure.

At this point a dyno would be much too expensive for me. The plugs could be fouled, same with the o2 sensors. We pulled the plugs out just a few days ago and had multiple sources independently confirm that they looked healthy. I have not removed the o2 sensors though. Would there be a visible sign of fouling?

It was a little rich from the get go, but definitely got richer as time went on.

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

You know what I think it might be, that i had similar issues with. Possibly you have the injector connected to the wrong one or o2 sensor connected wrong. Doing this wont throw a check engine code but would make it run rich because the computer is reading the wrong cylinders.

If you look at the injector wires and o2 wires they have a code writen on them that specifies which cylinder that they are suppose to be on. (pretty snazzy in case wires go everywhere)

I feel that is your issue.

I didn't know that they had codes written on them, that's pretty cool. What exactly is written on them, and how do I match them up correctly?

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by lolibater

At this point a dyno would be much too expensive for me. The plugs could be fouled, same with the o2 sensors. We pulled the plugs out just a few days ago and had multiple sources independently confirm that they looked healthy. I have not removed the o2 sensors though. Would there be a visible sign of fouling?



I didn't know that they had codes written on them, that's pretty cool. What exactly is written on them, and how do I match them up correctly?

Ill get back to you on that but if you take off some of the black electrical tape at the end of the connector on the harness side there will be certain numbers on the o2 sensors, and fuel injectors which could be giving you all the trouble. It took me a few days for me to figure out that i had the o2 sensors and fuel injectors wrong. And i was getting the same problems your getting.

Ill be back when i can look at the bike. but send me a text so i can get back to you asap

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Ill get back to you on that but if you take off some of the black electrical tape at the end of the connector on the harness side there will be certain numbers on the o2 sensors, and fuel injectors which could be giving you all the trouble. It took me a few days for me to figure out that i had the o2 sensors and fuel injectors wrong. And i was getting the same problems your getting.

Ill be back when i can look at the bike. but send me a text so i can get back to you asap

Can you PM me your cell number?

[lgk]

i think byron is right on this one.

if the fuel map keeps getting richer then something is backwards.

[lolibater]

I bet you the pro guy who came over to confirm my valves hooked it up backwards. I went out to lunch when he attached the o2's back up. I don't get how it could have happened though, since the wires coming from the sensors themselves are so short that crossing them over would require pulling them super tight.

Hopefully the info Byron gives me later will allow me to confirm.

[Lychee]

Seems like a wiring diagram showing which wires connects to which pin on the connector would be helpful.
According to the ecotrons instruction manual on the website, there is a software that can read telemetry from the ECU. Have you tried this software? You could unplug an o2 connectors to see if the readout goes dead.

[lolibater]

I could be thinking this through wrong, but there's only 1 place to plug in each o2 sensor. I don't see how it could be plugged in wrong on the harness, as the harness' only purpose is to accept the o2 sensor connector. It is very oddly shaped, not allowing for anything else to be plugged into it.

[Lychee]

Perhaps the harness was built incorrectly.

[Lychee]

http://www.ecotrons.com/files/Ninja2...anual-v2_1.pdf

The wiring diagram is on page 36-37. The description of which wire goes where is on page 38

[lolibater]

I see what you mean now.

Does this mean I have to cut open the black shroud around the blue and white wires to each injector to determine if they run to the correct harness for the o2 sensors, or is there an easier way?

Page 36 pictures make it seem like there is no visible difference between the two red/white harnesses:

[Lychee]

Take the plug off of the item being tested and the and use a multimeter to test the lead for connectivity with the correct pin.

[Lychee]

Have you tried the telemetry software? Might be easier to use the output from the ecu and disconnect the plugs from the o2 sensors to see if the readout goes dead.

[lolibater]

I am unfamiliar with how to use a mutlimeter in this specific scenario. Could you give me a little more info?

Also, what is the telemetry software? Are you talking about ProCal?

Can anyone else confirm or deny some kind of numbering or labeling on either the o2 connector, harness, or injector harnesses?

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

I am unfamiliar with how to use a mutlimeter in this specific scenario. Could you give me a little more info?

Also, what is the telemetry software? Are you talking about ProCal?

Can anyone else confirm or deny some kind of numbering or labeling on either the o2 connector, harness, or injector harnesses?

You're basically checking that they built the harness correctly.

1. set multimeter to continuity (or lowest resistance scale).
1a. touch the test leads together to confirm that the meter correctly reports continuity (or needle deflects, if set to resistance) Any reading of resistance on a digital multimeter other than infinity is an indication of continuity.
2. unplug harness from ecu.
3. unplug connector from injector
4. place one test lead on one of the pins exposed from #3
5. poke the other test lead into each pin on ecu harness exposed from #2 until the meter reports continuity (or needle deflects, if set to lowest resistance scale)
6. check the chart to confirm continuity occurs at the correct pin

repeat above procedure for each suspect connection (2 injectors, 2 o2 sensors)

Yes, the manual states that the telemetry software is called ProCal.

I don't have this system, but I guess the labeling for the connectors is shown in the picture. Use the procedure above to make sure the wire goes to the right pin on the ECU harness.
Injector #1 - INJ1, pin#16
Injector #2 - INJ2, pin# 15
O2 Sensor #1 in - O2HIN1, pin# 23
O2 Sensor #1 out - O2HOUT1, pin# 1
O2 Sensor #2 in- O2HIN2, pin# 11
O2 Sensor #2 out- O2HOUT2, pin# 22

[lolibater]

Thanks Jon, I will make sure to reference that when I go to pick up the multimeter from my friend later.

Byron also just told me that the wires for each side have distinct numbering/labeling directly on the wires themselves.

From the o2 sensor >> harness >> injector wires for each side:

Cylinder 1
Harness to injector wiring goes
white w/ #8
green
blue
white w/ #1

White injector wire should have # 16

Cylinder 2
Harness to injector wiring goes
white w/ #11
green
blue
white w/ #4

White injector wire should have # 15


I will have @138 check the numbering on the wires if he has time. If not, I will get him to trailer the bike back to my house this Saturday so that I can look it over myself.

I guess that's what some of the weird sounds were when trying to start; one cylinder is super rich, the other super lean. We will know once I confirm the wiring.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lolibater

The last set of data that I was able to log was right before I left my house on Saturday when it was running "correctly." I sent my logs from that day to @choneofakind, and he said that in the top end i was getting something about 12.2 IIRC.

Chone, correct me if I'm wrong here; you know more about the data I sent you than I do.

What I said was that you had the rich map it came with, which is rich at the top, going down to about 12.2 or so, according to the fractions. I also said that that doesn't matter because you've been using the learning mode. The rich map has no effect when using the learning mode.

I also said that I cannot read through data right now because my ProCal won't work without a disk and that if you wanted me to see any specific sections, I would walk you through how to show certain variables over smaller time intervals so you could send screen shots.

[lolibater]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll try to get data logged as soon as can get it started, pending the correct wiring of the injectors and o2 sensors.

I'm wondering what would happen if I wiped the ECU and then ran it in learning mode for only a few minutes. After that, see if I can get it started in Rich mode, in hopes that it wouldn't have any data to use, and would run fine enough for me to get it back home. Does that make sense?

[choneofakind]

I'm not sure what you mean by wipe it? I don't think it will run without software being installed on it?

[lolibater]

When I say wipe, I mean reflash the most recent .s19 that Matt gave me, thereby erasing the incorrect AFR data that is being read by the possibly reversed o2 sensors.

[choneofakind]

They're reversed? I need to go read through this thread the whole way...

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

They're reversed? I need to go read through this thread the whole way...

possibly reversed. possibly.

Based on what Byron told me earlier, it seems quite possible, especially since I was not present during the kit re-installation.

[Lychee]

All learned data is useless if the sensors were switched. I would start from a known good map after every change to the system to eliminate the learned data as a possible source of error.

[lolibater]

I agree. It uses that saved data during rich mode to stick to a user defined AFR.

If I clear the data out, and am able to get the bike started in eco, let it idle for a few minutes, and then turn it off, can't I switch to Rich, where it won't try to lean out / richen based on the weird o2 sensors?

I was asking just for my own knowledge, as I have no intention of actually starting this bike until I have confirmed that the injectors and o2 sensors are wired properly.

[Lychee]

From what the manual says on Page 33, the rich mode is on a fixed map which will not take anything learned from eco mode into account.

ECO mode: close loop fuel with O2 sensor feedback, with ECU self-tuning capability.

RICH mode: open loop fuel, fixed map, no ECU self-tuning capability

RICH mode is only good if you have a well tuned engine mapping.

Theoretically you should be able to switch between the two modes whenever you please.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Lychee

which will not take anything learned from eco mode into account.

no self tuning =/= does not take eco mode into account.

Your rich map is all based on ratios of 14.7. Eco mode learns what 14.7 is for your bike. That relationship is then used to supply the afr that your rich map is set for at certain rpm/throttle openings.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

no self tuning =/= does not take eco mode into account.

Your rich map is all based on ratios of 14.7. Eco mode learns what 14.7 is for your bike. That relationship is then used to supply the afr that your rich map is set for at certain rpm/throttle openings.

Ok, but in regards to Rick's question, the simple answer is no. How will the ecu learn the stoich ratio throughout the RPM band when the only RPM it has seen since the last reflash is idle?

Edit: To clarify: By no, I meant that there is no point to idling in ECO mode for a few minutes before switching to RICH.

[lolibater]

Makes sense. I was just wondering.

@Lychee, when you wipe the ECU with the new .s19, it doesn't have "no" data, just the base map of whatever .s19 you flash. It's basically just enough to make the bike work. Seeing as it wouldn't have recorded any incorrect AFR data from the weird o2 readings, it would just run on the map pre-programmed into the .s19. That way when I switch it to Rich mode, it would use the data (from the .s19 that has not been modified by learn mode), to maintain an AFR that is "good enough" to get me home. Just thought I would clarify that.

Looks like I'll be trailering it back Saturday late morning.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Makes sense. I was just wondering.

@Lychee, when you wipe the ECU with the new .s19, it doesn't have "no" data, just the base map of whatever .s19 you flash. It's basically just enough to make the bike work. Seeing as it wouldn't have recorded any incorrect AFR data from the weird o2 readings, it would just run on the map pre-programmed into the .s19. That way when I switch it to Rich mode, it would use the data (from the .s19 that has not been modified by learn mode), to maintain an AFR that is "good enough" to get me home. Just thought I would clarify that.

Looks like I'll be trailering it back Saturday late morning.

OK sorry, this sounds just fine. Why couldn't you run RICH mode to start it and never go into the ECO mode to by pass the O2 sensor readings all together?

[lolibater]

I'm not sure. I'll have to try that sometime.

[flynjay]

The only problems that I have had with the system were the MAP sensors. I had three die over 6 months / 6000 miles. Matt always replaced them under waranty.

I did also have a problem with the fuel pump cavitating when the bike got hot, but that was resolved by changing the fuel routing.

Be sure the fuel routing has a clear path for the air to return to the tank. If you have an area where air gathers in the return line you will likely have problems.

I have removed the system from my bike, only because I am prepping for selling it and don't want to pass any unknowns on to the new owner.

One way to check the o2 sensor routing is to hook the system up to procal and turn the power on the bike (do not start). Then unplug one of the sensors. The output of that sensor should drop to zero.

[CZroe]

Check your petcock for leaks. Mine leaks slowly and I could not start even though I was able to start and warm it up the day before. Pulled the plugs and found them soaked with gas. Replaced them with new ones (was time anyway) and it fired right up. When it wasn't starting I was getting the same lower-end popping and backfiring.

I think the bike cooled and pulled extra gas into the carbs which leaked into the engine because I have the same symptoms as other people with a bad petcock (oil smells like gas, premature cam chain wear, etc).

[choneofakind]

It's a fuel tap, not a petcock.

Fuel won't get into the engine unless the fuel rail is pressurized and the injector is powered. So you're likely good there.