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Old May 7th, 2018, 04:31 PM   #1
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This is dark...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5e58a5d0153b

Interesting.... I'm an organ donor... and would never ride without my Arai lol... thoughts? Reactions?
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Old May 7th, 2018, 04:37 PM   #2
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My mom was a nurse for the VA Hospital in Minneapolis doing Kidney Dialysis for at least 15 years. Every single one of her patients that got a kidney transplant the donor was a young male motorcyclist riding without a helmet. She hates motorcycles and calls them Donorcycles.
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Old May 7th, 2018, 05:00 PM   #3
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A *lot* of people call 'em donorcycles. Then again, if you look how some people ride....
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Old May 7th, 2018, 05:18 PM   #4
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Man... I get how the data is connected, but there's just some things you don't put into writing, especially if you're a legislative official debating the impact of potential of laws.
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Old May 7th, 2018, 06:52 PM   #5
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Oh man they just had to post a picture loaded with "donors" didn't they.
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Old May 7th, 2018, 08:12 PM   #6
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Katie, I ignore things that are written mainly to sell copy. I'm a firm believer in ATGATT, and also in personal freedom. We don't need any laws to save people from themselves, only laws to keep people from infringing on the rights of others.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 01:32 AM   #7
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We don't need any laws to save people from themselves, only laws to keep people from infringing on the rights of others.
Hard to debate that, it is exactly the right concept in the abstract. The stickiest point becomes what counts as infringing on others' rights. Making them pay more due to ones own decisions? Indirectly affecting someone else's safety in a general way? A specific way? Making someone else uncomfortable?
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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:29 AM   #8
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Man... I get how the data is connected, but there's just some things you don't put into writing, especially if you're a legislative official debating the impact of potential of laws.
They are saying it to scare people into voting against the repeal of the helmet law. Kind of like reverse psychology.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 06:14 AM   #9
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Old May 8th, 2018, 06:17 AM   #10
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Sadly, I believe, from 53 years of experience, that basically 50% of people are morons.

It's usually the morons or guilty that complain about civil rights when it comes to laws relating to safety.

Ever since all the WH&S laws have come in people have complained about them, strange thing is that alot of the deaths and injuries that you would see are now no longer seen, but people still complain about losing their rights to do what they want.


Civil rights IRT helmets is really a mute subject anyway, it's just morons think it's their civil right to look cool and all "easy rider" like, rather than think about the outcome of their head hitting the pavement at 50.

I care not if some moron dies, I do care about the cost it has on the system, their family and the community.

But, on the plus side, all the morons and their primo organs are a perfect answer to the people who need a new kidney, heart, lung, eye and all the other squishy bits they have left over after becoming a brain dead vegetable because they hit their unprotected head in a crash.

Me, I'm an organ donor, but I want to hold off on donating until I have truly used and abused my organs to a point that no one would want them, I do this buy using common sense and the ability to conduct and apply risk assessments, oh, and not being a narcissistic moron.

If people want to fight the good fight IRT civil rights there are alot of areas that deserve the attention, racism, bigotry, sexual equality to name a few, you won't look like Marlon Brando but you will be fighting for a just cause.

Anyways, it's getting late and I have done some work on making my liver donor proof, night night.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 06:19 AM   #11
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Well this is certainly dark.

My take, when seat belts were made mandatory lots of people fused and cussed. I never wore a seatbelt. The car I was driving at the time did not even have a seat belt.
I am also a pilot at the time. Now I would have never considered getting into the airplane without strapping in. I mean tight. Nothing like coming off the seat and banging your head on the door pillar.

So when seat belts became mandatory I had no excuse, but to strap in. Same with motorcycle helmets. There is just no good excuse to not wear a helmet. My take is if you do not wear a helmet you are a selfish narcissist. You increase everyone's insurance costs, you clog up the courts with lawsuits, you may leave loved one's behind. You "it's my right not to wear a helmet" is just a stupid argument. Now if you want to ban motorcycles your going to to get my guns first.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 06:24 AM   #12
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I understand the cost to society argument, but those same arguments could be used to just ban motorcycles all together.

It won't be too much longer until human driven vehicles will be banned on public roads and only computer piloted vehicles will be allowed.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 06:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Hard to debate that, it is exactly the right concept in the abstract. The stickiest point becomes what counts as infringing on others' rights. Making them pay more due to ones own decisions? Indirectly affecting someone else's safety in a general way? A specific way? Making someone else uncomfortable?
Yes, it does require some careful thought. Insurance companies need to continue to find ways to reward lower risk customers with lower premiums so that my rates don't go up because of the risky behavior of others.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 07:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaFish View Post
I understand the cost to society argument, but those same arguments could be used to just ban motorcycles all together.

It won't be too much longer until human driven vehicles will be banned on public roads and only computer piloted vehicles will be allowed.
Right. Doesn't anyone actually enjoy driving (or riding) anymore?

Are we so lazy and preoccupied that we can't muster the concentration to manually operate a vehicle?
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Old May 8th, 2018, 08:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaFish View Post
I understand the cost to society argument, but those same arguments could be used to just ban motorcycles all together.

It won't be too much longer until human driven vehicles will be banned on public roads and only computer piloted vehicles will be allowed.
This will be true in about 30 years but there will always be the race track.
ATGATT is a race track requirement. Funny it is required were it is safest to ride and nobody has a problem with it.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 08:53 AM   #16
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This will be true in about 30 years but there will always be the race track. ATGATT is a race track requirement. Funny it is required were it is safest to ride and nobody has a problem with it.
Will there?

Maybe for safety reasons all you will be allowed is virtual reality racing (ie video games). I mean we need to keep our health care costs down and somebody has to protect us from ourselves. Besides the Yamaha robot motorcycle riders will beat us humans anyways.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 09:01 AM   #17
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Will there?

Maybe for safety reasons all you will be allowed is virtual reality racing (ie video games). I mean we need to keep our health care costs down and somebody has to protect us from ourselves. Besides the Yamaha robot motorcycle riders will beat us humans anyways.
I will bet you a dollar.
Invest it in waymo now and winner will cashin in 30 years.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 08:54 AM   #18
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Just found this article while searching on an unrelated topic.


Horseback riding is more dangerous than motorcycle riding and accounts for about half of the traumatic brain injury in adults. We need mandatory helmet laws for horseback riding.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/horse-...ry?id=38090435
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Old May 9th, 2018, 09:23 AM   #19
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When CA implemented helmet-law, about $150-mil was saved from budget in next couple years.

I'm all for freedoms as long as it's exercised responsibly and doesn't impose on other's freedoms as well. I would love to have unlimited speed-limits like many European countries or lack of helmet-laws like most of the world. But being the spoiled coddled brats we are, someone ELSE is always responsible for our f*ckups in the U.S. I'd love to have something like donor-cards that say "in event of finding my crashed body on side of road, DO NOT resuscitate me, just send via cab to hospital for organ harvesting." Then I'd be in favour of repealing helmet-laws.

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Old May 9th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #20
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When CA implemented helmet-law, about $150-mil was saved from budget in next couple years.

I'm all for freedoms as long as it's exercised responsibly and doesn't impose on other's freedoms as well. I would love to have unlimited speed-limits like many European countries or lack of helmet-laws like most of the world. But being the spoiled coddled brats we are, someone ELSE is always responsible for our f*ckups in the U.S. I'd love to have something like donor-cards that say "in event of finding my crashed body on side of road, DO NOT resuscitate me, just send via cab to hospital for organ harvesting." Then I'd be in favour of repealing helmet-laws.

How about a law that says if you are involved in any dangerous activity, such as motorcycle riding, horseback riding, mountain climbing, bike riding, skateboard riding, sky diving, down hill skiing, ect..... and you do not wear an approved safety helmet you are liable for all health care costs (through insurance if your insurance company will cover it), and if you don't have the ability to pay them health care providers can refuse to give you care?
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Old May 9th, 2018, 10:18 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Katie, I ignore things that are written mainly to sell copy. I'm a firm believer in ATGATT, and also in personal freedom. We don't need any laws to save people from themselves, only laws to keep people from infringing on the rights of others.
Same

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Hard to debate that, it is exactly the right concept in the abstract. The stickiest point becomes what counts as infringing on others' rights. Making them pay more due to ones own decisions? Indirectly affecting someone else's safety in a general way? A specific way? Making someone else uncomfortable?
The stance Triple Jim has (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm misrepresenting his views) and I have is based some on some premisses:

1. We understand that all laws are backed by violence (or threat of). So it's not just "you should do this". It's "you should do this... or else". So when we're talking about doing the "good" or the "right" thing using a law you also have to factor in that you're achieving this "good" thing using a threat of violence (which many people consider to be a bad thing).

2. We don't want other people to violently interfere with our life and our decisions by using laws or other violent means. We acknowledge that for people to not interfere with us, we should not interfere with them. I think most people know that when someone makes one rule for you and a separate rule for themselves they are simply trying to control your behaviour for their own benefit without regard for you or the greater community. Conversely, if someone applies the same rule to themselves and others they are showing that they may actually care about doing the right thing and coming up with objective standards that everyone in a community can follow to benefit the community as a whole.

So in the case of helmets, the hypocrisy comes from creating rules to stop some activities which may hurt yourself but not other activities. I personally think it's stupid to ride without a helmet, but I'm not ever going to call for laws and violence to be used against people who refuse to wear one, because I don't want people calling for laws or violence to be used against me to stop me:

- riding a motorcycle (way more dangerous than driving a car).
- driving a car (way more dangerous than taking a train or plane).
- taking certain drugs that I choose to take
- riding a bicycle without a helmet
- walking around bare foot outside
- any of the other countless things I do which create no risk of damage to other people or their property, but which create risks for myself.

3. Even if there is never a good reason to not wear a helmet on public roads, we acknowledge that the act of making a law to mandate helmets implicitly elevates the law makers to a state where they know what is right and wrong and they know what the best decisions are and you don't. I don't accept this. They are just human like me. These are people that I have never met and who have never met me. I will make my own decisions as to what is right and wrong and how I should behave. I'm not going to place trust in strangers to do this for me. The only time I will consider physically imposing myself on others or promoting that practise is on matters of property rights and aggression. In all other cases, I will let people figure out for themselves and I'll do the same for me. I'll mess up sometimes and so will they. This is part of being human and it's part of the joy of life: having the freedom to try things, be things and do things you want with your own body and mind.

4. Is it really true that there is never a situation where riding at speed on public roads without a helmet is a bad idea? I don't know for sure. What about if someone you love is in immediate danger and all you have to get to them is a motorcycle and no helmet? You might decide that the risk to you is outweighed by the risk to your love one if you delay getting to them in order to find a helmet or another safer method of transport. This situation is unlikely, but it's just here to illustrate a point. There could be a situation where you deem it reasonable to risk your life by riding without a helmet. Helmet laws could take that choice away from you. You could get stopped by a cop enforcing the law.

Finally: just because I am against helmet laws does not mean that I don't see this as a very real and serious problem which is the cause of great tragedy and suffering in many peoples lives. The only thing I disagree with is using laws (and the violence that backs them) to solve this problem. There are other ways to solve this problem which we can all take part in without using violence to infringe on the free will of an individual. Some ideas:

- donate to a charity which offers free helmets to people who haven't bought a decent one because of lack of money.
- speak with bikers you see in the street who are not wearing decent gear. It's uncomfortable doing this sometimes and can make you look like you are interfering, but in reality it's way less interfering than getting a law passed which makes this compulsory. I personally have spoken to young bikers who don't wear good gear in the UK. I always cringe when I see people riding without decent riding boots, because I know that foot and ankle damage is very common in bike accidents and the effects can be horrendously painful and debilitating. I have a good imagination so I'll build a picture in the mind of the person I'm talking to of what could happen to their body if they crash without boots.
- Promote a culture of ATGATT on forums and at bike clubs. Ninjette.org has a great ATGATT culture and played a big part in getting me to wear full gear on every ride (in the UK only a helmet is compulsory).
- Social ostracism via freedom of association (and non-assocation). I'm not saying that you should do this, but it remains a non-violent option. If you recognise just how dangerous it is to ride at speed without a helmet and you really care about someone, then maybe you can choose to not ride with someone who rides without a helmet or you can even refuse to socially interact with them on a greater level.

I've written a fair bit, but I still feel that what I have written is inadequate. This subject touches on some deep philosophical ideas and some of it comes down to subjective differences in belief between individuals. Hopefully I've at least helped you to understand this viewpoint better
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Old May 9th, 2018, 11:50 AM   #22
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The discussion here is basically the democrat viewpoint "We must protect the people who are too stupid to protect themselves" and the republican viewpoint "Stupid people who kill themselves are their own problem."

I hate them all equally. How about education instead of laws? Maybe an ad campaign similar to "This is your brain on drugs."
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Old May 9th, 2018, 01:32 PM   #23
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You left out the Libertarian viewpoint that I posted above, and that Akima elaborated on.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 02:39 PM   #24
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Libertarianism not allowed in U.S. Sounds like a bunch of tree-hugging, bark-eating, crunchy-granola socialistic commies!!! Only one extreme or other allowed in U.S.!!!
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Old May 9th, 2018, 03:19 PM   #25
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I believe you need to enforce laws with the threat of violence.

If not people will never comply.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 03:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
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You left out the Libertarian viewpoint that I posted above, and that Akima elaborated on.
Didn't read Akima's post, it was too long. Needs cliff notes.

During the last election both my wife and I considered becoming libertarians. So I start to research it and the first thing that comes up is a picture of guy wearing a boot on his head and carrying a 6 foot toothbrush.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 04:05 PM   #27
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I believe you need to enforce laws with the threat of violence.

If not people will never comply.
I worded that wrong, I should have said threat of punishment.

A threat of punishment for not complying is not a violent act.


People could always move away from society if they wish to not comply with the laws and regulations of the society they currently live in, the same society that offers protection and health care.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 04:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
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I believe you need to enforce laws with the threat of violence.

If not people will never comply.
True. If libertarianism could be imperfectly summarized with one principle, it would be the "non-aggression principle". This basically means "don't initiate (or start) an act of violence against a person or their property. The non-aggression principle however does not prohibit you from using violence in self defence of persons or property.

There's are a lot more details to understand, but that's the basic thing.

So in the context of laws, a libertarian who thought that laws were acceptable or necessary would support only those laws which are to do with protecting people from violence (this includes terrorism, warring foreign nations, rape, assaults etc) and for protecting and upholding peoples property rights (your home, your vehicles, your possessions, your business etc). So indeed, those libertarians would be absolutely in support of violence-backed laws in order to protect people and their property. However they wouldn't be in support of laws that infringed on your liberties. So they wouldn't support any laws that prohibited you from taking drugs or demanded that you wore certain protective gear on a motorcycle. As a reminder: this does not mean that they support riding without protective gear and they support recreational drug use. Some will support these things and some wont. All it means is that libertarians do not want government-violence backed laws as a solution to these problems and they highly value the choice of the individual to decide for themselves what to do.

Quote:
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Didn't read Akima's post, it was too long. Needs cliff notes.
I've totes never been accused of being verbose or talkative

See the TL;DR (too long; didn't read) version above.

Quote:
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During the last election both my wife and I considered becoming libertarians. So I start to research it and the first thing that comes up is a picture of guy wearing a boot on his head and carrying a 6 foot toothbrush.
I sometimes wonder if some of these "libertarian" characters are funded or hired by anti-libertarian folk to make libertarians look bad. I think the libertarian candidate for your last big election was Gary Johnson. He's... well: I think this video paints a pretty good picture of the dude:

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old May 24th, 2018, 01:11 PM   #29
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I grew up in countries that didn't have helmet laws, where 2-wheel vehicles significantly out number cars.
I also reside in a state that does not have mandatory helmet requirement for motorcycle riders.
Speaking for myself, I like to have the choice myself whether to wear a helmet or not while riding my motorcycle.
But reality is: people are stupid; when given the choice, stupid people are going to do stupid things and have higher chance of losing their lives without a helmet.
If that allows more people who need organ transplant to survive longer, be thankful for loving longer.. I rather have thankful people live than stupid people... but there is no guarantee that all will be thankful.
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Old June 16th, 2018, 10:56 AM   #30
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Interesting discussion. While I'm generally in favor of less laws to control our decisions at least helmet laws ( like seatbelt laws ) are easy to comply with and have almost no negatives associated with their implementation.


The article's premise is correct in that there will be an increase of traumatic head injury fatalities that will increase the opportunity for harvesting healthy organs for use by others. However most people do not choose to be organ donors. I would submit that the same people who are thoughtless and selfish enough to ride helmetless generally do not choose to be voluntary organ donors. It would be interesting to have a law that allows riders to opt out of helmet use if they agree to sign up as voluntary organ donors.
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Old June 16th, 2018, 10:58 AM   #31
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It would be interesting to have a law that allows riders to opt out of helmet use if they agree to sign up as voluntary organ donors.
Super interesting suggestion. I didn't think of this. I like it.
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Old June 17th, 2018, 07:26 PM   #32
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In other news since when can Jim neighbors sing???
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Old June 19th, 2018, 06:04 AM   #33
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In other news since when can Jim neighbors sing???
He doesn't sing at all now.
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Old June 19th, 2018, 06:12 AM   #34
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Interesting discussion. While I'm generally in favor of less laws to control our decisions at least helmet laws ( like seatbelt laws ) are easy to comply with and have almost no negatives associated with their implementation.


The article's premise is correct in that there will be an increase of traumatic head injury fatalities that will increase the opportunity for harvesting healthy organs for use by others. However most people do not choose to be organ donors. I would submit that the same people who are thoughtless and selfish enough to ride helmetless generally do not choose to be voluntary organ donors. It would be interesting to have a law that allows riders to opt out of helmet use if they agree to sign up as voluntary organ donors.
That's an interesting proposal. It would offset the increased medical costs with increased organ donation.

I wonder if the law could be written (and enforced) that you sign a statement when you get your motorcycle license if you ride without a helmet and are declared brain dead after an accident on a motorcycle you automatically become an organ donor.
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Old June 19th, 2018, 04:03 PM   #35
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He doesn't sing at all now.
He broke on through to the other side?
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