New cartridges and suspension, what should I expect?

[Yakaru]

I have my Saturn in the shop getting NIX-22 cartridges up front and a KA841 suspension installed. (Both are Ohlins products)

So... can anyone tell me what I might expect in terms of difference afterwards? I've read up on suspensions but I don't know how it will translate into actual on-bike experience changes or improvements.

[rojoracing53]

expectations lead to placebo effect not that that is bad thing in this case. just get on it and enjoy the new feels

[SLOWn60]

Two resources I know of to learn the black arts:
Traxxion Dynamics "Suspension for Mortals" (about an hour and a half and worth it! On YouTube or you can order it)
Dave Moss videos on suspension and reading tire wear and what to adjust. His stuff takes a bit more hunting to find all the videos and sift through his pointers but again its gold!

[Panda]

How much did that run you?

[Yakaru]

About $2500

[Panda]

Wow. I am looking to upgrade my suspension but that's more than my bike is worth.

[Yakaru]

Yeah don't look to me for reasonableness. I've dumped a minimum of $10k, probably $20k, of upgrades into my Ninjette. I'm actually trying to make sure there isn't a better suspension setup I could've gone with, because I don't want to need to do this upgrade again.

[sharky nrk]

The reality is that you can expect a lot and expect nothing. It really depends on where your setup, comfort level, etc is with your current suspension - AND - how well your new bits are setup for you.

The "best" suspension components that are not setup correctly to meet your needs as a rider can be far and away worse than stock stuff that is in the ballpark. Now in reality it is likely that since you are dropping the cash on these that you will have a suspension tuner/someone familiar with the components dial the bike in for you as well. In that case you are likely to enjoy a smoother more controlled suspension action that will provide you more confidence. But its possible you won't really be able to notice the benefits at first at all.

Case in point. My brother has a '06 636 that had stock forks that were freshly serviced with correct rate springs in them. They were setup as well as they could be given factory valving for his weight and riding style. He upgraded to AK20s, again with correct rate springs and optimized valving. He went NO FASTER his first event on the bike. As time went on and he became aware of the information the carts were giving him that the stock valving wasn't, he grew more confident in the front end and went faster.

Once your in the ball park in terms of spring rate and damping profile, suspension action can be a very subjective thing. Each rider and bike combination can be different.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Panda

Wow. I am looking to upgrade my suspension but that's more than my bike is worth.

First, get springs to match your weight. The fork springs are soft, and the rear may be too stiff. The DIY GSXR shock swap will give you more adjustment, and you might be able to get a different spring too. Having springs that move the proper amount is a necessary baseline for any good suspension setup, and will be a huge upgrade over stock rates if they're way off.

Intiminators are a budget way to get cartridge-style damping for your forks. You can also spend a few hundred on an aftermarket rear shock.

There are different levels of upgrades, and you can get decent improvements without spending as much as you paid for the bike. My $90 fork springs are the single best thing I've done to my 500 (which has a few mods).

[InvisiBill]

If you were stock before, I think the biggest thing you'll notice at first is the spring rates. According to RT's calc (which may not be perfectly accurate), the front springs are ideal for <100lb while the rear is ideal for >200lb.

I'm guessing you're not either of those. That means your front end is too squishy while the back end is too stiff. If the rear is skipping, it'll also push into the soft front, leading to rocking horse effect. The 500 is simply too soft at both ends, but I do have some experience with a mod that resulted in binding of the shock, so it was moving less than it should've, similar to a too-stiff spring.

After getting springs of the proper rate on both ends, it just feels smoother all around. I can feel the suspension moving under me, but it feels controlled and appropriate. With the soft stock springs, they didn't absorb the impact from bumps and were mushy in corners. The NewGen/300 has better rates than the 500/PreGen, but the forks are still on the soft side and I think the rear might be too stiff for a lot of people (just based on math and my experience with the 500's similar suspension setup, no first-hand Ninjette experience). I think overall it'll feel more stable and predictable with just getting correct springs in there. I'm sure the enhanced damping and adjustability will help even more too.

I'm also curious about what rear spring rate you ended up with and your weight (if you don't mind sharing that). There seems to be conflicting info about what the rear spring rate should be, and not a whole lot of hard data either way in posts.

[Burphel]

I'm curious how this turned out. I'm giving some thought to doing the NIX carts and their double-clicker for the rear on my race bike project. It's about $500 more than I figured on spending, but I think I could pretty much stamp "finished" on suspension for life.

It sounds like you had them installed. Any idea if they were a true drop-in, or if they needed to do any grinding/drilling?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Panda

Wow. I am looking to upgrade my suspension but that's more than my bike is worth.

hahaha yeah I'm in the same boat. @Yakaru just enjoys having the absolute best possible setup that is available and is able to afford it as well. If you're on a tight budget get racetech springs/emulators/preload adjusters and a gsx-r 600 rear shock with dogbones. That coupled with the Dunlop Alpha 13 or Pirelli Supercorsa tires and you're good to go

~$200 and your suspension is good to go even at the expert racing level

That said I do love me some ohlins

[Swann]

I've got Maxton cartridges and a KA840.

The bike rides like it's on rails, yes it's a cliche, but that what it feels like.

We've got a track here that was hurriedly built in under a year. They didn't allow the land to settle properly, so when it was paved sections sank, giving it a wavy/ bumpy surface.

I love riding the bike on it as guys on stock suspension freak when he bike rides real bumpy like in sweeping turns.

It cost a bundle, but it rides like it costs a bundle.

[pattonme]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

About $2500

Eek, I can get you that same setup for ~1400. Is your number in Canadian?

So, what's the verdict? How does it handle bumps? The Andreani and even NIX-30 have problems (too restrictive) in the Compression leg and have to run a thin oil or revalve/replace piston to get good performance out of it.

If your tracks are smooth then you won't notice.

[pattonme]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Intiminators are a budget way to get cartridge-style damping for your forks.

Nothing wrong with Intiminators. Or get fully adjustable Showa cartridges for ~$400. Andreani or Ohlins NIX-22 start at mid-600.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by pattonme

Eek, I can get you that same setup for ~1400. Is your number in Canadian?

So, what's the verdict? How does it handle bumps? The Andreani and even NIX-30 have problems (too restrictive) in the Compression leg and have to run a thin oil or revalve/replace piston to get good performance out of it.

If your tracks are smooth then you won't notice.

No, never been in Canada, it's US but I feel the price was fair. I'd be pretty impressed if you could do it for that amount honestly; unless you're getting way better prices on the raw equipment than I've found anywhere.

I haven't noticed a difference yet, to be honest, but that could be any number of factors including the fact I haven't done any hard riding of any kind since it was installed.

[pattonme]

MSRP NIX22+ springs = 700
MSRP KA841=903

I pass on double-digit discounts. Installation is (rounding up as shops like to do) 1hr for the shock, a little over 1hr (call it 2) for the forks.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by pattonme

MSRP NIX22+ springs = 700
MSRP KA841=903

I pass on double-digit discounts. Installation is (rounding up as shops like to do) 1hr for the shock, a little over 1hr (call it 2) for the forks.

Seems in line with the numbers/time/etc. I've seen.

[Zaph42]

I have the ohlins rear shock with the K-tech carts in front. The stock suspension was scary. It was a unique combination of mushy and harsh, and had a tendency to chatter out from under me in bumpy corners. Once the new suspenders were dialed in at the track, my confidence started going up.

Note with the K-tech carts: there is a machining operation to install them and they can't be reverted back to stock.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by pattonme

Eek, I can get you that same setup for ~1400. Is your number in Canadian?

So, what's the verdict? How does it handle bumps? The Andreani and even NIX-30 have problems (too restrictive) in the Compression leg and have to run a thin oil or revalve/replace piston to get good performance out of it.

If your tracks are smooth then you won't notice.

I hope you are still doing suspension when I bite the bullet

[csmith12]

Yakaru, if I may inject some good old fashion KY common sense to your question.

But first... why did you make the mods? If you have a suspension tweak/goal you were going for, well then there is your answer of what to expect. ie, your tweak implemented. Also, while I know you enjoy modding your machine, if the changes were nothing but a farkle, then it also falls in line with "if it aint broke, don't fix it."

So to get directly to your question... what can you expect? What are the tangible measures that you can assign to gauge your return on investment? Well here are a few (assuming it is well set up);

1. Increased corner stability (you have heard this question before "in what range do you want your suspension stroke to work?")
2. Smoother transitions from brake to throttle or said more bluntly (smoother weight transitions from front to rear and vise versa) What do you think a well set up bike will do for your throttle control and braking skills?
3. Improved traction feel by rider. Since the rider will no longer "feel" the noise created by surface imperfections that the lesser suspension couldn't react well too. Do you think it will feel different at lean? You betcha! WARNING: This can go the opposite way as well and you may slow down to come to terms with new feedback from the bike.
4. Higher tolerances and greater compliance for braking, cornering and more aggressive throttle application.
5. Improved tire performance and life
6. An improved/higher margin of safety
7. More information available to you in the paddock as you share common components with other riders
8. A less sore body.. lets face it, poor suspension beats you up over the course of many days

ect.. ect.. ect..

Good luck and hope you enjoy your new bits.

ps... wait till you go over a crest at pace with a really good suspension setup vs a shotty one. The difference in feel is amazing.
pps... it may take some time to get a handle on some of the subtle changes in your bike, but it will happen.

[Yakaru]

Why did I make the mod? Partially because I want to have my 300 be the "Best bike it can be", so I know I can rely on it. Partially farkle factor. Partially to see if it would help me ride better.

The biggest things I'm fighting are my minimal time on Saturn since they were installed (the engine blew the very next track day) and the fact I tend to be a little change blind (I adapt to the changes and compensate for them without realizing I've changed my behavior.) This will be a bit worse since I've been off Saturn so my basis point is no longer a solid memory. I might have to ride Pearl and Saturn in quick succession and then I can probably identify some differences.

[Mohawk]

I replaced the whole front end on my pregen zzr250 with a KR1-S one with 41mm forks & installed a spare set of cartridges from my VFR800 & VTR1000 forks I had to hand. I already had the Ohlins shock from a new gen fitted. I also fitted a KR1-S alloy swingarm. The suspension was good before but now it's awesome. Best bit is the new linkage ratio for the swingarm is now perfect for the shock spring which was to soft for the original setup.

[Mechanikrazy]

Originally Posted by csmith12

1. Increased corner stability (you have heard this question before "in what range do you want your suspension stroke to work?")
2. Smoother transitions from brake to throttle or said more bluntly (smoother weight transitions from front to rear and vise versa) What do you think a well set up bike will do for your throttle control and braking skills?
3. Improved traction feel by rider. Since the rider will no longer "feel" the noise created by surface imperfections that the lesser suspension couldn't react well too. Do you think it will feel different at lean? You betcha! WARNING: This can go the opposite way as well and you may slow down to come to terms with new feedback from the bike.
4. Higher tolerances and greater compliance for braking, cornering and more aggressive throttle application.
5. Improved tire performance and life
6. An improved/higher margin of safety
7. More information available to you in the paddock as you share common components with other riders
8. A less sore body.. lets face it, poor suspension beats you up over the course of many days

ect.. ect.. ect..

What CSmith said.

I'm jealous. I came close on Black Friday, but couldn't get get over the hurdle of the price.

Once the bike is set up, it should be feel much more stable and have better bump absorption. Midcorner bumps should feel much smoother over the stock suspension. Where you might have felt the bike get a bit bent out of shape midcorner, the bike will probably move around significantly less.

If you can go back to back between a stock bike and your Ohlins setup, it'll feel night and day.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Yeah don't look to me for reasonableness. I've dumped a minimum of $10k, probably $20k, of upgrades into my Ninjette. I'm actually trying to make sure there isn't a better suspension setup I could've gone with, because I don't want to need to do this upgrade again.

say what?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by mgentz

say what?

Ninjettes are built on the cheap; they're not badly built but it is clear that a major goal is low price point. I like small bikes. Yeah, I have an S1000RR, but I actually like riding my little ninja more.

This means, over time, the 'cheap' things get to me and I replace them with aftermarket pieces. I'm also vain so I get vanity things done on top of that. It adds up quick.

I would never advise anyone else to do this though, it's completely nuts.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Ninjettes are built on the cheap; they're not badly built but it is clear that a major goal is low price point. I like small bikes. Yeah, I have an S1000RR, but I actually like riding my little ninja more.

This means, over time, the 'cheap' things get to me and I replace them with aftermarket pieces. I'm also vain so I get vanity things done on top of that. It adds up quick.

I would never advise anyone else to do this though, it's completely nuts.

Suspension - $2500

What did you spend the other $7500 - $17500 on? Got a build sheet?

[Yakaru]

I don't have it off hand but let me see if I can't recall some of the items...

Pazzo Adjustable Levers
Aftermarket Wheels (2 sets)
Powdercoating of wheels
Custom purple SS brake lines
Carbon Fiber Fairings
Radiator Guard
Fender Cleanup
Corbin Seat, Custom fit, Custom embroidery
Tapered steering stem bearings
Rearsets with Lightech folding pegs
Purple Iridium Double Bubble Screen
Full engine bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Full fairing bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Various other misc probolt parts (e.g. reservoir caps)
AreaP exhaust, Fuel Controller, Dyno Tuning for pod filter setup
Galfer Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 1
EBC Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 2
Extreme Pro EBC Pads for racing wheel setup
HH EBC Pads for street
Clip On Woodcraft Bars
TechSpec grip pads
Scorpio Ride Security system and GPS Ride Recorder
Aliant Lithium Battery
Purple Chain

...Give me some more time and I'll see if I can't track down the rest.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I don't have it off hand but let me see if I can't recall some of the items...

Pazzo Adjustable Levers
Aftermarket Wheels (2 sets)
Powdercoating of wheels
Custom purple SS brake lines
Carbon Fiber Fairings
Radiator Guard
Fender Cleanup
Corbin Seat, Custom fit, Custom embroidery
Tapered steering stem bearings
Rearsets with Lightech folding pegs
Purple Iridium Double Bubble Screen
Full engine bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Full fairing bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Various other misc probolt parts (e.g. reservoir caps)
AreaP exhaust, Fuel Controller, Dyno Tuning for pod filter setup
Galfer Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 1
EBC Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 2
Extreme Pro EBC Pads for racing wheel setup
HH EBC Pads for street
Clip On Woodcraft Bars
TechSpec grip pads
Scorpio Ride Security system and GPS Ride Recorder
Aliant Lithium Battery
Purple Chain

...Give me some more time and I'll see if I can't track down the rest.

That is a commendable list. More than most people would do.

BTW, how is the suspension doing?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by mgentz

That is a commendable list. More than most people would do.

BTW, how is the suspension doing?

Out of commission. Engine blew (main bearing went) and so we swapped in a 2016 Ninja 300 engine and then that caused the electronics to go fritzy so back at the shop while they figure out what went wrong.

In the meantime I'm mostly riding the Z125 or taking the 4 wheeled Honda. I could probably ride Pearl (the other 300) but even though I know my partner is not riding in this season it still feels weird/wrong to do.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Out of commission. Engine blew (main bearing went) and so we swapped in a 2016 Ninja 300 engine and then that caused the electronics to go fritzy so back at the shop while they figure out what went wrong.

In the meantime I'm mostly riding the Z125 or taking the 4 wheeled Honda. I could probably ride Pearl (the other 300) but even though I know my partner is not riding in this season it still feels weird/wrong to do.

sux to hear about the motor. Any idea what happened?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by mgentz

sux to hear about the motor. Any idea what happened?

Nothing definitive but here's the data I have:
The engine was a champ and had over 50,000 miles on it (mostly street).
I was/am meticulous with maintenance so that seems an unlikely source of problems.
The bike was stolen early in the year. My redundant GPS trackers on the bike more than paid for themselves. But, due to problems convincing the police to come recover, by the time we did get it back there was some not insubstantial damage. I don't think they got into the engine directly but they had done things like start removing the aforementioned custom parts (oil and brake line caps were off and never recovered).
Due to the fact I was doing an insurance claim I had the estimate and repair done by a dealership. I don't want to speak ill of their mechanics but I will say that there were plenty of signs of sloppy work. For example: bolts that had been stripped due to using SAE instead of metric on them; it's possible they assumed since they were custom they would be SAE? They also drained/replaced all my brake fluid (I'm sure with something inferior to what I usually use) and left bubbles, making the brakes super squishy. It's data points like that which make me suspicious.

So it could be something got into the engine from the shop or the thieves, or that something was not properly reassembled. It's also possible it was just a "bad part" which had its time come (though 50k seems weirdly in the middle of the bathtub curve).

The electronics issue is a bit more of a mystery; and it looks like the dashboard may be out of commission. If it can't be repaired I'm looking at replacing it with a Starlane Davinci -- though I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

[Mechanikrazy]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Due to the fact I was doing an insurance claim I had the estimate and repair done by a dealership. I don't want to speak ill of their mechanics but I will say that there were plenty of signs of sloppy work. For example: bolts that had been stripped due to using SAE instead of metric on them; it's possible they assumed since they were custom they would be SAE? They also drained/replaced all my brake fluid (I'm sure with something inferior to what I usually use) and left bubbles, making the brakes super squishy. It's data points like that which make me suspicious.

Sounds like a nice list of mods, and what should be one super sweet set up 300!

That sucks about the dealership work. But I fully understand, I'll be the first to say that I've only had one fully satisfactory dealership/mechanic experience. I usually work on my bike myself, and have serious trust issues with mechanics. The consistent screw ups that have happened when I trust others with my bikes have not helped ameliorate that.

Hopefully your bike is up and running by March for next track season!

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Mechanikrazy

Sounds like a nice list of mods, and what should be one super sweet set up 300!

That sucks about the dealership work. But I fully understand, I'll be the first to say that I've only had one fully satisfactory dealership/mechanic experience. I usually work on my bike myself, and have serious trust issues with mechanics. The consistent screw ups that have happened when I trust others with my bikes have not helped ameliorate that.

Hopefully your bike is up and running by March for next track season!

Oh Saturn will be up and running or there will be hell to pay.

I definitely prefer to do my own work, but for a few jobs it's easier to farm it out. Replacing tires, valve adjustment, replacing the shocks -- those I let shops handle. But mounting/aligning wheels, regular stuff (chain, brakes), installing the exhaust, etc. I do it myself. Basically it's a matter of if I have the tools and if I can do it solo.

[Dsheumaker]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

First, get springs to match your weight. The fork springs are soft, and the rear may be too stiff. The DIY GSXR shock swap will give you more adjustment, and you might be able to get a different spring too. Having springs that move the proper amount is a necessary baseline for any good suspension setup, and will be a huge upgrade over stock rates if they're way off.

Intiminators are a budget way to get cartridge-style damping for your forks. You can also spend a few hundred on an aftermarket rear shock.

There are different levels of upgrades, and you can get decent improvements without spending as much as you paid for the bike. My $90 fork springs are the single best thing I've done to my 500 (which has a few mods).

I was able to get emulators, springs and the gsxr shock for about $165 total. Just have to shop around and check part numbers.

[Yakaru]

We can officially add a DaVinci SX (along with needed accessories) to the list.
http://www.starlane.com/vedit/15/cro...sp?idprod=1103

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I don't have it off hand but let me see if I can't recall some of the items...

Pazzo Adjustable Levers
Aftermarket Wheels (2 sets)
Powdercoating of wheels
Custom purple SS brake lines
Carbon Fiber Fairings
Radiator Guard
Fender Cleanup
Corbin Seat, Custom fit, Custom embroidery
Tapered steering stem bearings
Rearsets with Lightech folding pegs
Purple Iridium Double Bubble Screen
Full engine bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Full fairing bolt and fastener assembly replaced with purple ProBolt
Various other misc probolt parts (e.g. reservoir caps)
AreaP exhaust, Fuel Controller, Dyno Tuning for pod filter setup
Galfer Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 1
EBC Brake Rotors for Wheel Set 2
Extreme Pro EBC Pads for racing wheel setup
HH EBC Pads for street
Clip On Woodcraft Bars
TechSpec grip pads
Scorpio Ride Security system and GPS Ride Recorder
Aliant Lithium Battery
Purple Chain

...Give me some more time and I'll see if I can't track down the rest.

[Tim_W]

Hi guys,

I got in touch with Matt Patton late last year to put together a set of cartridges for my Ninja 300 race bike. It has been months since I paid for them but he has stopped replying to my emails.

Is anyone in contact with Matt at the moment or have another contact for him apart from his email address?

Thanks

[Alex]

Do you know his user ID here?

[Tim_W]

Hi Alex,
It is pattonme. I didn't write it first because I thought he was very well known here on the forum. He has since got in touch with me since I posted here so hopefully resolved soon! Cheers.

[mgentz]

Please let us know how it turns out!