Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[greg737]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

"The total current draw is 3A.
Yes both o2 are heated, as needed. Not 100% duty cycle.
Both are NB .
Yes TB will connect to pre models with some rigid pipe adaptor exactly taylored ."

All correct except for the "NB" statement.

The O2 sensors are "WB" a.k.a. "wide-band". If they were NB (narrow-band) the Ecotrons kit wouldn't be capable of "self tuning".

The O2 sensors shown on the Ecotrons page appear to be Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 sensors which is the same sensor I used in my 2005 EX-250 project bike.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Guoseph

For those of you guys in the bay area, where do you plan to take your exhaust to get the O2 bung welded on?

Not sure yet. Got any suggestions? I had planned on doing some research on BARF as I wait for the parts to come in next month. Some have suggested that a welding shop would be better than an exhaust shop.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by greg737

All correct except for the "NB" statement.

The O2 sensors are "WB" a.k.a. "wide-band". If they were NB (narrow-band) the Ecotrons kit wouldn't be capable of "self tuning".

The O2 sensors shown on the Ecotrons page appear to be Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 sensors which is the same sensor I used in my 2005 EX-250 project bike.

That's what the rep told me so idk hahaha

[Guoseph]

Originally Posted by setasai

Not sure yet. Got any suggestions? I had planned on doing some research on BARF as I wait for the parts to come in next month. Some have suggested that a welding shop would be better than an exhaust shop.

Forum Member @diwhiteii installed one and is from SF, maybe he could suggest someone?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...3&postcount=94

[massacremasses]

come visit me. Ill weld it for you

[Jiggles]

Turbo Charging anyone?

http://ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_RHB...bocharger.html

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by greg737

All correct except for the "NB" statement.

The O2 sensors are "WB" a.k.a. "wide-band". If they were NB (narrow-band) the Ecotrons kit wouldn't be capable of "self tuning".

The O2 sensors shown on the Ecotrons page appear to be Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 sensors which is the same sensor I used in my 2005 EX-250 project bike.

Technically it could self-tune with NB, at least the non WOT portion of the operating regime. Automotive systems do it all the time as they correct for changes over time for various reasons. However, it likely would require much more complex software. The WOT portion could still be indirectly tuned, but it would not be as accurate as what you could get with WB O2 sensor data. The upside would be a lot less than 36W of power draw. I bet the heaters in the WBO2 sensors draw a big chunk of that 3A. I really want to do a system like this, but I worked hard to get enough overhead on my bike to give my electric gloves enough power to run indefinitely under any circumstances without fear of running the battery down.

Edit to add: When I mentioned autotuning, I was assuming the desire to tune to stochiometric, 14.7:1. How my car does it, and my car is a 1980's model, is that it cycles the mixture rich to lean and back very quickly, more than once a second. As a result the O2 sensor voltage, and it's a 1-wire narrow band sensor, cycles between 200mV and 800mV, with 450-500mV being considered stochiometric. The ECM then adds and subtracts from a fuel trim table such that the average time spent on the rich and lean side of stochiometric is about the same. The voltage is not linear with mixture, that's correct, but it's fairly symmetrical around 14.7:1. So, in effect, my PCM is autotuning. There's no fundamental reason why this can't be done as it's basically math (averaging) and recording data within the ECM. There's a basic tune already programmed into the ECM, so in this case the autotuning is working over an existing fuel map, but that was done mainly for production consistency and cost as the software needed to start from scratch would be much more involved and expensive to implement (at that time, anyway).

Now, typically one would like a slightly rich mixture at WOT. My car doesn't directly tune that regime since it can't measure mixture accurately very far from stochiometric. What it does do is to adjust the WOT fuel tables (BTW, WOT means Wide Open Throttle, for those that are wondering) proportionally to the cruise and idle fuel tables, under the assumption that whatever altered the fuel requirements at cruise also applies to other parts of the overall fuel map. That's why I stated that it would be difficult, and would not be as accurate. I still stand by that statement. If I had the programming skills I'd use a knock sensor to check for detonation and add fuel to the WOT tables until it stopped, with a threshold alarm of some percentage higher than what I might expect.

As a side note, there are heated NB O2 sensors, I've got one in another car. That car is an early 80's product that I added long-tube headers to. With 26" primaries the new O2 sensor location was too far down the exhaust stream and wouldn't light off most of the time, leaving the car in open-loop configuration with terrible fuel economy. I discussed the issue with a GM engineer and he specified a part number for a heated sensor which I installed, wiring an auxiliary circuit to run the heaters. It was a four wire sensor (separate grounds for the sensor cell and heater). Worked great.

[rusninja]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Turbo Charging anyone?

http://ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_RHB...bocharger.html

you wont :P

[greg737]

Technically it could self-tune with NB,

I'd have to have you explain to me how this could be done. A narrow-band O2 sensor only tells you whether you're on the rich or lean side of the "gasoline stoichiometric" air/fuel ratio. It just isn't capable of telling you exactly what your air/fuel ratio is across the possible range of rich to lean mixtures.

Here's a example graph of the information you get from both a wide-band and a narrow-band.


As you can see the narrow-band O2 sensor (blue lines) can only be relied upon to tell you when the air/fuel ratio hits "gasoline stoichiometric" (14.7/1), that's its only definitive datapoint, whereas the wide-band O2 sensor can sense and report any air/fuel ratio from crazy-rich to bone-dry-piston-burning-lean.

So with a narrow-band O2 sensor how could you tune (or use an ECU's "auto-tune" function)? For example, on my 2005 FI project bike my idle air/fuel target ratio is 13.5/1, how could I use a narrow band to tune for that? Another example: for my "tip-in" zone for throttling out of idle at a stop I have targets of around 12.5/1 (which is gasoline's "best horsepower" air/fuel ratio). If my only definite datapoint from a narrow-band O2 sensor is 14.7/1 then how can I tune for 12.5/1?

[flynjay]

When do we think this is going to happen?

I prefer end of Dec., beginning of Jan.

[setasai]

Probably not till mid to late Jan after the holidays in case people got cash for xmas and want to spend it on this. I'll discuss it with @Jiggles and come up with a fair and reasonable end date to close the group buy. We'd also like to get 5 people so that we can get the maximum discount.

[gt_turbo]

are these ECU's programmable? can you get the ECU custom tuned for mods - full exhaust/filters etc? would suck if your stuck at a generic base map.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

are these ECU's programmable? can you get the ECU custom tuned for mods - full exhaust/filters etc? would suck if your stuck at a generic base map.

The ECU is self tuning, the map changes as the ECU "learns" your bike. You can adjust the major factors if your setup falls outside the ability for the system to self tune.

[gt_turbo]

Originally Posted by flynjay

The ECU is self tuning, the map changes as the ECU "learns" your bike. You can adjust the major factors if your setup falls outside the ability for the system to self tune.

self tuning ECU? first time i've heard that an aftermarket ECU can do that. usually don't they just come pre-loaded with 1 or 2 maps. sounds pretty kewl if it works good. someone try it and let us know how accurate it is versus having it dyno tuned.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

self tuning ECU? first time i've heard that an aftermarket ECU can do that. usually don't they just come pre-loaded with 1 or 2 maps. sounds pretty kewl if it works good. someone try it and let us know how accurate it is versus having it dyno tuned.

You're probably thinking about things like Power Commander chips which are really just a different basic fueling map.

But when you're talking about a full-up aftermarket ECU, the "self tuning" capability is probably the biggest selling point. I use a Microsquirt ECU (it's the smaller version of a Megasquirt ECU).

Based on my experience with my own FI project I think the Ecotrons ECU is a very interesting piece of technology because it can do the "self tune" all by itself while most other aftermarket ECUs (like my Microsquirt) require you to hook up a laptop/netbook/tablet PC to the ECU so you can run a seperate software package that does the "self tune" in real-time and then sends the data back into the ECU (my Microsquirt depends on the TunerStudio software package for this function).

And yes, "self tuning" works great. The ECU has a user programmable air/fuel ratio target table that it looks at while you ride. Many times a second the ECU uses the current engine RPM and Throttle Position and/or Manifold Absolute Pressure readings to look up a target air/fuel ratio which it compares to the current wide-band O2 sensor reading. If the two don't match the ECU makes an adjustment in the Volumetric Effeciency table which is the table that is the bike's "fueling map". As you ride for a while you'll be hitting the same datapoints over and over so the ECU gets a chance to re-check and tweak the fuel map even more.

It's amazing that you can "ride" your motorcycle into a better state of tune, but that's exactly what you do with an aftermarket ECU. It's the ultimate "Italian tune-up".

[gt_turbo]

Originally Posted by greg737

You're probably thinking about things like Power Commander chips which are really just a different basic fueling map.

But when you're talking about a full-up aftermarket ECU, the "self tuning" capability is probably the biggest selling point. I use a Microsquirt ECU (it's the smaller version of a Megasquirt ECU).

Based on my experience with my own FI project I think the Ecotrons ECU is a very interesting piece of technology because it can do the "self tune" all by itself while most other aftermarket ECUs (like my Microsquirt) require you to hook up a laptop/netbook/tablet PC to the ECU so you can run a seperate software package that does the "self tune" in real-time and then sends the data back into the ECU (my Microsquirt depends on the TunerStudio software package for this function).

And yes, "self tuning" works great. The ECU has a user programmable air/fuel ratio target table that it looks at while you ride. Many times a second the ECU uses the current engine RPM and Throttle Position and/or Manifold Absolute Pressure readings to look up a target air/fuel ratio which it compares to the current wide-band O2 sensor reading. If the two don't match the ECU makes an adjustment in the Volumetric Effeciency table which is the table that is the bike's "fueling map". As you ride for a while you'll be hitting the same datapoints over and over so the ECU gets a chance to re-check and tweak the fuel map even more.

It's amazing that you can "ride" your motorcycle into a better state of tune, but that's exactly what you do with an aftermarket ECU. It's the ultimate "Italian tune-up".

thanks for the info, sounds like a pretty good product. if only i had $500 laying around. (sigh)

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

thanks for the info, sounds like a pretty good product. if only i had $500 laying around. (sigh)

You got two kidneys?

[n4mwd]

Tempting, but I'm going to hang on to my carbs until they go bad. The cost is plenty and I'm not convinced that he has adequately solved the fuel return problem. But I'm thinking that at least 5 of you will let me know.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Tempting, but I'm going to hang on to my carbs until they go bad. The cost is plenty and I'm not convinced that he has adequately solved the fuel return problem. But I'm thinking that at least 5 of you will let me know.

I'll trade you my Cali pregen tank

[greg737]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Tempting, but I'm going to hang on to my carbs until they go bad. The cost is plenty and I'm not convinced that he has adequately solved the fuel return problem. But I'm thinking that at least 5 of you will let me know.

I know you're talking about the fuel return issue for an old-gen EX-250. The fact that a non-California old-gen EX-250 has no easy way to plumb the excess fuel pump output back into the tank.

A few posts ago I was trying to point out the fact that you don't have to run the excess pump output fuel back to the tank as long as you deal with the temperature build up of the return loop some other way.

The easiest way to dump the excess heat (without going back to the fuel tank) is to run the return loop through a fuel cooler.

I've got several thousand miles on my version of the old-gen "no-return" FI system and it works great. I used a Flexalite 4130 cooler which I cut down to 3 and 1/2 inches (of finned cooling surface) and I hung it under the K&N 0990 air filter. It's a very efficient fuel cooling setup with the K&N continuously pulling air across the cooling element. In summer my return fuel loop ran at a temperature just barely over ambient.

If you can measure and solder, this is an easy setup to build.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'll trade you my Cali pregen tank

don't. tempt. me !!

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'll trade you my Cali pregen tank

What color is your pre-gen tank?

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by greg737

I'd have to have you explain to me how this could be done. A narrow-band O2 sensor only tells you whether you're on the rich or lean side of the "gasoline stoichiometric" air/fuel ratio. It just isn't capable of telling you exactly what your air/fuel ratio is across the possible range of rich to lean mixtures.

Here's a example graph of the information you get from both a wide-band and a narrow-band.


As you can see the narrow-band O2 sensor (blue lines) can only be relied upon to tell you when the air/fuel ratio hits "gasoline stoichiometric" (14.7/1), that's its only definitive datapoint, whereas the wide-band O2 sensor can sense and report any air/fuel ratio from crazy-rich to bone-dry-piston-burning-lean.

So with a narrow-band O2 sensor how could you tune (or use an ECU's "auto-tune" function)? For example, on my 2005 FI project bike my idle air/fuel target ratio is 13.5/1, how could I use a narrow band to tune for that? Another example: for my "tip-in" zone for throttling out of idle at a stop I have targets of around 12.5/1 (which is gasoline's "best horsepower" air/fuel ratio). If my only definite datapoint from a narrow-band O2 sensor is 14.7/1 then how can I tune for 12.5/1?

I'll edit my post to be more clear...

[setasai]

@greg737 Just wanted to thank you Greg for the wealth of information. I read up on FI but you're explanations and comparison with your own developed system really helped me.

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

thanks for the info, sounds like a pretty good product. if only i had $500 laying around. (sigh)

I dont really have $500 laying around either. I dedicated this money as a new year/xmas gift to myself... It was between a new exhaust and EFI. You know which one I decided on.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by greg737

I know you're talking about the fuel return issue for an old-gen EX-250. The fact that a non-California old-gen EX-250 has no easy way to plumb the excess fuel pump output back into the tank.

A few posts ago I was trying to point out the fact that you don't have to run the excess pump output fuel back to the tank as long as you deal with the temperature build up of the return loop some other way.

The easiest way to dump the excess heat (without going back to the fuel tank) is to run the return loop through a fuel cooler.

I've got several thousand miles on my version of the old-gen "no-return" FI system and it works great. I used a Flexalite 4130 cooler which I cut down to 3 and 1/2 inches (of finned cooling surface) and I hung it under the K&N 0990 air filter. It's a very efficient fuel cooling setup with the K&N continuously pulling air across the cooling element. In summer my return fuel loop ran at a temperature just barely over ambient.

If you can measure and solder, this is an easy setup to build.

So your fuel supply is like this:

Tank-->line-->pump-->injector rail-->line-->cooler-->line-->Tee on fuel pump inlet line? So the fuel cycles continually between pump and cooler, with whatever the injectors take removed from the loop volume and replaced with fuel from the tank? I assume there's a checkvalve upstream of the Tee?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by flynjay

What color is your pre-gen tank?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

The easiest way to dump the excess heat (without going back to the fuel tank) is to run the return loop through a fuel cooler.

If I go FI, I'll probably want to either get a CA tank or machine a new petcock adapter where fuel can return through the petcock. The fuel cooler idea might not work that well down here when ambient temperatures hit 100F.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

[IMG]

Nice..I'm keeping my eye out for a pre-gen black. Mine has a little rust build up and both fairing bolts were punctured.

Leaks have been fixed by jbwelding some studs into the holes and using acorn nuts.

As for the tank, I will try removing the diaphram in the petcock. If that doesn't work, I will drill and install a fuel return tap.

[greg737]

If I go FI, I'll probably want to either get a CA tank or machine a new petcock adapter where fuel can return through the petcock. The fuel cooler idea might not work that well down here when ambient temperatures hit 100F.

The fuel cooler idea might not work that well down here when ambient temperatures hit 100F

Think about that statement...... Now run it through your mind once again..... Yes, that's right, your fuel tank isn't a refridgerator, it's just another way to dump heat to the atmosphere.

Your fuel tank doesn't posses some magical property that cools the fuel, it's dependent upon: A. the volume of gasoline that's in the tank, and (to a greater degree) B. transfering the heat from the gasoline in the tank into the fuel tank wall and finally dumping it off into the atmosphere.

So the overall effect of running a "return to tank" system vs. a "fuel cooler" system is exactly the same. The bottom line is that your lowest possible fuel temperature will be no lower than the ambient outside air temperature.

Yes, I'll give you the fact that if you start off with a full tank of cold fuel it will take you longer to reach the point where the lowest possible fuel temperature is the ambient outside temperature, but over the course of a medium to long ride distance you will get there.

That's not important anyway, though, because any engineer will tell you that you have to build your system to effectively deal with the upper limit it will regularly experience, not a "gift" situation like happening to have a tank full of cool fuel because the bike was in the garage. Eventually you're going to have the situation where you're riding your EX-250 on a really hot day with not a lot of fuel in the tank. That's when the "rubber meets the road".

I don't know what temperature will cause gasoline to convert to vapor and "vapor lock" my FI system, but I know it's got to be well over 100 degrees (I mean way over).

[greg737]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

So your fuel supply is like this:

Tank-->line-->pump-->injector rail-->line-->cooler-->line-->Tee on fuel pump inlet line? So the fuel cycles continually between pump and cooler, with whatever the injectors take removed from the loop volume and replaced with fuel from the tank? I assume there's a checkvalve upstream of the Tee?

Yes, the fuel does cycle continuously from pump to cooler. But no, it's not put together exactly as you outlined just now. The main difference from what you've described is that my system uses a "dead end" fuel rail like every other OEM motorcycle system on the market. And, of course, the system's fuel pressure regulator acts as a "checkvalve".

It goes:

Step 1. Fuel leaves the fuel tank through the petcock (just "on" and "off"), down a fuel line and into one branch of a three-way Tee. The second branch of the Tee recieves fuel coming back in from the return loop (more on that later) and the third branch of the tee takes that return fuel and new fuel from the tank to the bike's fuel pump. Call this combination "input fuel".

Step 2. The fuel pump (Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer) pressurizes this input fuel to about 50 psi and sends it down a line into the fuel pressure regulator (also a Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer part).

Step 2.a. A "bubble line" or you could call it a "vapor-relief" line also leaves the fuel pump. This line is hooked up to what used to be the vacuum port on the bike's petcock. (Side note: when you take out the petcock's vacuum diaphram the vacuum port turns into a useful fuel line).

Step 3. The fuel pressure regulator reduces the line pressure to 42 psi and sends that pressure down the line to the throttlebody fuel rail and into the injectors.

Step 3.a. The remainder of the fuel pump's output volume (that doesn't go to the fuel rail and out through the injectors) is bled off into a return line.

Step 4. This return line fuel is routed through the cut-down Flexalite 4130 fuel cooler that's mounted to the bottom of the K&N 0990 air filter before it continues back to the Tee mentioned in Step 1.

If you've got time on your hands and you believe that "a picture is worth a thousand words" heres a video I made this summer that must be worth about a million words (if you're interested in the subject matter, that is).

Link to original page on YouTube.

[randomwalk101]

Hey guys
I saw Ecotrons offers OEM Kawi FI throttle bodies for $199 more with diff injectors. What's the advantage of this? Is it needed?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Hey guys
I saw Ecotrons offers OEM Kawi FI throttle bodies for $199 more with diff injectors. What's the advantage of this? Is it needed?

The advantage is that they are the OEM throttle bodies, the disadvantage is that they are used and $199 more expensive. Honestly, I doubt they make any difference at all.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

Think about that statement...... Now run it through your mind once again..... Yes, that's right, your fuel tank isn't a refridgerator, it's just another way to dump heat to the atmosphere.

Actually, the fuel tank IS a refrigerator. Sort of. As the components of gasoline evaporate, they COOL the remaining gasoline. Thus, no matter how much you heat the tank, the liquid portion of the gasoline will NEVER exceed the temperature of LIQUID gasoline.

The same is true of water. No matter how high you turn up the stove, a pot of boiling water will not exceed 212F.

But as a better example, a thermos bottle (like the kind in a lunch box) that is filled with liquid nitrogen will just sit there and smoke a little bit. Huh? That's because as the nitrogen evaporates, it cools the surrounding liquid to below the boiling point. Thus, liquid nitrogen in an open thermos bottle just sits there and smokes rather than just going whoosh. The same example works for dry ice.

But in a cooler like you pictured, the gasoline cannot be cooled lower than ambient temperature. In that system, if the gas evaporates, it ruins everything.

Sorry, but I must disagree with your closed loop cooling method. At least for hot climates.

[randomwalk101]

If i sign up and decide to go with the $199 OEM throttle body, does the 20% off apply to it as well?

($599 + $199) x 0.8 = $638 ??

[greg737]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Actually, the fuel tank IS a refrigerator. Sort of. As the components of gasoline evaporate, they COOL the remaining gasoline. Thus, no matter how much you heat the tank, the liquid portion of the gasoline will NEVER exceed the temperature of LIQUID gasoline.

The same is true of water. No matter how high you turn up the stove, a pot of boiling water will not exceed 212F.

But as a better example, a thermos bottle (like the kind in a lunch box) that is filled with liquid nitrogen will just sit there and smoke a little bit. Huh? That's because as the nitrogen evaporates, it cools the surrounding liquid to below the boiling point. Thus, liquid nitrogen in an open thermos bottle just sits there and smokes rather than just going whoosh. The same example works for dry ice.

But in a cooler like you pictured, the gasoline cannot be cooled lower than ambient temperature. In that system, if the gas evaporates, it ruins everything.

Sorry, but I must disagree with your closed loop cooling method. At least for hot climates.

What?

Wow. Was there any actual logic in that post? I couldn't find any.

That post is such a mess of pseudo-scientific sounding garbage I'm having trouble figuring out how to address it.

Okay, the first three paragraphs are complete fantasy so there's no need to respond to any of it.

But then you get around to saying:

But in a cooler like you pictured, the gasoline cannot be cooled lower than ambient temperature. In that system, if the gas evaporates, it ruins everything.

How on earth did you arrive at the idea that evaporation plays any part in the cooling of a Fuel Injection system? That's what I want to know.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

If i sign up and decide to go with the $199 OEM throttle body, does the 20% off apply to it as well?

($599 + $199) x 0.8 = $638 ??

We would have to ask them at ecotrons but I think they mentioned that this group buy discount would only apply to their throttle body because they dont have that many OEMs available. Plus they will be used, more expensive, and if I recall, the mounting of the cables might be a little different. Not necessarily a dealbreaker but as far as performance is concerned, I dont think it is worth it.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Sorry, but I must disagree with your closed loop cooling method. At least for hot climates.

I understand your point but in the grand scheme of things, I dont think it really matters for gasoline since the only way you can prevent vaporization is if the container is sealed, which the gas tank is not. It is the pressurized containers that prevent temperature changes. In an open container, the liquid nitrogen isnt cooling itself persay, it is using the energy to convert the liquid into gas, leaving the liquid at its max temperature. In a gas tank scenario, you would be losing gas to keep the liquid portion at a cooled temperature. All around a crappy scenario and there's nothing about the tank that "refrigerates" gasoline. It's just a metal tank that gets hot when its hot out and cools when its cooler. Nothing special about it.

In any case, feel free to disagree with a closed loop cooling method and come up with a better one on your own. Greg has designed one based on his knowledge and experience and it is obviously working great for him and more than likely others. We can only work with what our members have tried and/or willing to "test" on their own. Please test out some designs and report back on it's performance so that we may help further refinement of this conversion.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by setasai

I understand your point but in the grand scheme of things, I dont think it really matters for gasoline since the only way you can prevent vaporization is if the container is sealed, which the gas tank is not. It is the pressurized containers that prevent temperature changes. In an open container, the liquid nitrogen isnt cooling itself persay, it is using the energy to convert the liquid into gas, leaving the liquid at its max temperature. In a gas tank scenario, you would be losing gas to keep the liquid portion at a cooled temperature. All around a crappy scenario and there's nothing about the tank that "refrigerates" gasoline. It's just a metal tank that gets hot when its hot out and cools when its cooler. Nothing special about it.

In any case, feel free to disagree with a closed loop cooling method and come up with a better one on your own. Greg has designed one based on his knowledge and experience and it is obviously working great for him and more than likely others. We can only work with what our members have tried and/or willing to "test" on their own. Please test out some designs and report back on it's performance so that we may help further refinement of this conversion.

Thanks Brian, you've got more patience than I do.

As I've said in prior posts, I've got several thousand miles on my system and most of those miles were during this past summer, in the heat and in stop and go traffic around downtown Spokane. It's been thoroughly tested as far as protection against heat buildup in the fuel system is concerned.

Also, I think the use of the term "closed loop" is confusing people. It's not my term. I don't think I've ever used that term to describe my system in any of my posts because it simply doesn't appy. Both my system and a "return to tank" system are exactly the same in how they vent bubbles or vapor: both do it through the fuel tank.

My "fuel cooler" system and the "return to tank" system are equally "open loop" systems. The "return to tank" is simply more obvious in its openness (if that's even a word). My "fuel cooler" system is open because it has a vent line that returns bubbles/vapor to the fuel tank through the converted (ex-vacuum port) petcock line.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

If i sign up and decide to go with the $199 OEM throttle body, does the 20% off apply to it as well?

($599 + $199) x 0.8 = $638 ??

From Matt Lee

"For group buys, Ecotrons' throttle bodies only, because we do not have a lot of in-stock Kawasaki throttle bodies"

I'm not sure if they would allow just one to be the OEM throttle body though.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Actually, the fuel tank IS a refrigerator. Sort of. As the components of gasoline evaporate, they COOL the remaining gasoline. Thus, no matter how much you heat the tank, the liquid portion of the gasoline will NEVER exceed the temperature of LIQUID gasoline.

The same is true of water. No matter how high you turn up the stove, a pot of boiling water will not exceed 212F.

But as a better example, a thermos bottle (like the kind in a lunch box) that is filled with liquid nitrogen will just sit there and smoke a little bit. Huh? That's because as the nitrogen evaporates, it cools the surrounding liquid to below the boiling point. Thus, liquid nitrogen in an open thermos bottle just sits there and smokes rather than just going whoosh. The same example works for dry ice.

But in a cooler like you pictured, the gasoline cannot be cooled lower than ambient temperature. In that system, if the gas evaporates, it ruins everything.

Sorry, but I must disagree with your closed loop cooling method. At least for hot climates.

For evaporation to work there has to be some place for the evaporated vapors to go so that fresh vapors can form through evaporation. This would be fairly easy for gasoline in an open pot with a wind blowing to move the heavier than air vapors out of the pot, but in a fuel tank that's not the case at all. Once the air in the tank reaches saturation, i.e. it cannot hold any more vapor, then the evaporation stops for all intents and purposes. Now, you can radiate heat away from the surface of the gas tank, but I suspect that's negated by the radiated and convection heat put in by the engine/radiator.

If you were to apply heat to increase the fuel's temperature to its boiling point (extremely dangerous, don't attempt) the temperature of the fuel will not increase past that as long as there's some place for the fuel "steam" to go. If you seal the tank then the temperature and pressure will climb.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

For evaporation to work there has to be some place for the evaporated vapors to go so that fresh vapors can form through evaporation. This would be fairly easy for gasoline in an open pot with a wind blowing to move the heavier than air vapors out of the pot, but in a fuel tank that's not the case at all. Once the air in the tank reaches saturation, i.e. it cannot hold any more vapor, then the evaporation stops for all intents and purposes. Now, you can radiate heat away from the surface of the gas tank, but I suspect that's negated by the radiated and convection heat put in by the engine/radiator.

If you were to apply heat to increase the fuel's temperature to its boiling point (extremely dangerous, don't attempt) the temperature of the fuel will not increase past that as long as there's some place for the fuel "steam" to go. If you seal the tank then the temperature and pressure will climb.

... true but I'm unsure of the point of your post

The end result is fuel cooler "closed loop" vs return to the tank as the "cooler" is essentially the same thing since the tank (where all fuel ultimately goes back to regardless of system) is vented to atmosphere. Pressure should be EXACTLY the same inside vs outside and the difference in temperature is going to be negligible.

I mean really? If you're concerned about hot climates, get a white tank and insulate it with a layer of foam because if there were problems with temperature, we'd have FI bikes breaking down and exploding all over the place.

Originally Posted by greg737

Thanks Brian, you've got more patience than I do.

Haha, I teach undergraduate students immunology. I dont have a lot of patience either but Gin definitely helps.