Another "Bike won't start this morning" thread.

[headshrink]

Much to my disappointment, I didn't get to try my newly installed Autoswitch (garage door opener relay) in the field, because as I was leaving for work this morning, the engine wouldn't turn over. Any help to trouble-shoot will be much appreciated, as it was quite inconvenient to arrange a ride to work this morning, and tomorrow will be worse. I'll try to be as specific as possible.

First, I'll explain the last things done to my bike between arriving home from work last week, and starting out this week (weekend wrenching):
1-I installed and tested (successfully) my new Autoswitch (see my DIY).
1.5- (EDIT) Replaced and adjusted the throttle cable (pull).
2-I turned my mixture screws out an additional 1/4 turn to compensate for the extra popping as the weather has gotten colder (still fine-tuning anyways).
3-I synced the carbs & adjusted the idle (it was pretty much right-on anyways).
Although I didn't go out for a test run, it was starting, warming, and running great on the stands in my garage.

Now the SXS (symptoms)/trouble-shooting:
1-Ambient temp. was 55+F (normally a very comfortable temp. for my bike to start, warm, and ride).
2-When I hit the starter sw, it SOUNDED like the starter was engaging (I think), and turning over the engine.... it just wouldn't fire up (little explosions).
3-I tried with and w/o full choke.
4-I tried with throttle fully open too, to give it more air.
5-After several tries, I gave up because I didn't seem to be making progress, and I didn't want to flood the engine, or potentially flood it worse if this is what might be wrong.
6-I tested the battery after all that cranking with a multimeter (12.77 V).
7-Spark plugs were replaced for tuning purposes only a few hundred miles ago.

Although I don't know how or why, I SUSPECT the engine might be flooded. I had trouble starting once before, and never successfully identified the problem. I removed the spark plugs last time, and it ended up starting back then, but I don't really know why for sure. I suspect it was flooded then due to multiple starting attempts. But even then it would catch and sputter here and there.... THIS TIME it isn't catching or sputtering at all.

Where shall I turn next?

EDIT: In case it is relevant to someone.... Current set-up = removed snorkel, kept stock air box, FP jet kit (#100 main, 3rd clip, 3.25 turns out), AreaP Quiet Core.

[kkim]

Bob,

keep the battery on a charger/tender while you figure this out. you don't want to end up with a dead battery to compound your problems.

turn choke off, throttle wide open, crank for two or tree times to be sure you've cleared the engine just in case it's flooded.

if it doesn't start that way, close throttle, engage choke and start as you normally would. bike should do something like it's trying to start. if it doesn't, try the clearing of the engine again.

did you start up the bike since installing your garage door switch? loose wire perhaps that you are working with?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

Bob,

keep the battery on a charger/tender while you figure this out. you don't want to end up with a dead battery to compound your problems.

turn choke off, throttle wide open, crank for two or tree times to be sure you've cleared the engine just in case it's flooded.

if it doesn't start that way, close throttle, engage choke and start as you normally would. bike should do something like it's trying to start. if it doesn't, try the clearing of the engine again.

did you start up the bike since installing your garage door switch? loose wire perhaps that you are working with?

Wilco, & report.

Yes, I did start it to test the Autoswitch. All the carb tweaking was actually done after that.

One thing just occured to me...... last night (or night before), I started it up for about 5 sec. to show off the new FARKLE. This was the last time it was on. Could that cause the engine to flood?

[kkim]

Originally Posted by headshrink

One thing just occured to me...... last night (or night before), I started it up for about 5 sec. to show off the new FARKLE. This was the last time it was on. Could that cause the engine to flood?

might... might not. that's why the instructions to clear the engine first just in case it is flooded.

if nothing works, you might want to consider turning the mixture screws back in 1/4 turn and see if that makes a diff.

[headshrink]

It isn't working >
I skeptical that turning the screws in will do anything, but if I can't get it started, I might as well rule it out....

[kkim]

do you have gas in tank?

[bob706]

How old is the battery?

[headshrink]

I do have gas in the tank, and the battery is new.

[headshrink]

I just pulled the left plug. I see no evidence of fouling, and the cylinder appears dry (from what I can tell from that little bitty hole and a flashlight.

Before I did this, I dialed back the screws 1/4 turn (total=3 out). This didn't get it to start, but it seemed to give it the tiniest bit of a boost. Going to go check the air box for an eagles nest next.

[headshrink]

Just checked for fuel flow from the tank through the petcock thing... flow is good.

As I got all the hoses back on, plug back in, tank on, etc. I tried it again. This time, it gave a quick growl, as there was some ignition, then struggled again.

What is next?

[kkim]

Keep trying... sounds like you're getting there.

[headshrink]

Tried cranking again when I got home today. If I hold the starter down for a few seconds, it almost sounds like it will speed up slightly sometimes.... sounds kind of funny, but I don't know starters well enough to know for sure if it is really that funny. To ease my mind, I decided to pull it out for a look-see. It was a B**** to get out! the power lead wouldn't come off, so I had to pull it from the other end, or risk further damaging the lead. I also had to take out the carb to have room to work > I finally got it out. I hope I did this right, but I touched it to the battery terminals and believe it spun (lots of scary sparks.... all happened very fast). I pulled it apart and found a lot of debris from the brushes, but don't know if this is normal, because it did spin, and there are still brushes intact. Does this still look good?

I pulled both plugs this time. I'm not sure if I saw gas or not.... the carbon build up looked like it COULD have been a little moist (not sure), and the right plug MAY have been a little wet too, but honestly it wasn't super obvious to me. Everything smells like gas. The top of the piston appears to have little copper marks... I don't know what that is... I really don't know what else to try. Pictures below:

[headshrink]

any thoughts on the pictures?

I opened up my my carbs, and couldn't find anything obvious, except one slide didn't travel all the way up smoothly.... as if there was some grit in it.

I am still wondering about the starter... but I ended up braking it, so an ebay order was placed (not happy about that, but thankful for ebay).

[kkim]

why did you suspect the starter? was it turning the motor over when engaged??? and if so, it was doing it's job.

what do the plugs look like? pics? were they getting spark when the starter was operational?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

why did you suspect the starter? was it turning the motor over when engaged??? and if so, it was doing it's job.

what do the plugs look like? pics? were they getting spark when the starter was operational?

I can't give a GOOD reason for suspecting the starter, other than inexperience. I have always had the suspicion that it was slightly weak, but now I know I was completely wrong in how I went about it.... I thought it would be easy to pull it out just to look. It seems I am doing a whole lot of learning by breaking things. I believe it was turning the motor, but can't verify visually, since I went about things a little backward.

Here are some pics of the sparkys... difficult getting a good iphone pic. I'm now thinking they are slightly fouled (gas, not oil). There was some moisture on the rim of one of them when I went out to take the picture.... so I don't know if I am on the right track now, or making things worse for myself... braking the starter will set me back a week!

How I broke the starter.... there are 2 nuts on the starter post where the lead attached. Since the top one was to tight, I needed a tool to hold the bottom one. UNFORTUNATELY the bottom nut is to narrow to allow a box wrench to grab it, and needle-nose pliers just slip. Thinking, maybe if I just spin it the entire post will come out.... apparently that is a "no, no." This ended up twisting the lead to the brush inside the starter until it snapped. *sigh* While I was at it, I ordered a new power cable to the starter. The old one was probably in acceptable shape, but suffered a couple of broken strands from the whole debacle. Since I had to order a new(used) starter, I figured I might as well get the cable too for a couple bucks for good measure. Bike Bandit wanted $303 for a new starter!!!!! $40 shipped from ebay for starter (claims under 200 miles) and cable!

EDIT: Oops, forgot the image

[kkim]

yup, I love Ebay!

To tell if the starter was turning the motor, all you needed to do was place your hand over the end of the exhaust while you cranked the bike to start. If you could feel pressure on your hand while the engine was being cranked, the starter was turning the motor.

In my experience, the starter either turns or it doesn't... no middle ground.

I see no pics of the plugs, but to rule them out, just get a set of new ones from any auto parts store. I think they're less than $10 for two. Just get the recommended NGK plugs for our bikes... no fancy, shmancy stuff.

[headshrink]

Sorry, pic should be up now.

Yes! I did get a little preassure from the pipe, so that is good news.

[headshrink]

I went back to do an extra cleaning of my carbs while I wait for parts to arrive. I believe my float needle valves are still within spec, but I wanted to post a pic to be sure. As far as I can tell, it is still cone shapped, but there is a faint line. I would describe it as glazed.

[g21-30]

Brand new starter (21163-1317) from riverratmotorsports.com is ONLY $246.18!

[kkim]

Bob,

hard call on the float valves. I've had problems with the float valve on one of my dirt bikes recently and was told if you can see any discoloration on that "rubberized" surface, it most likely was the cause of fuel leaking into the bowls making the bike very difficult to start. Sure enough... I replaced my float valve on that bike and presto, the hard starting went away.

That bike is a 2002, though, and would think it would take a very long time for the float valve to wear enough to not seal well enough to cause problems.

[headshrink]

Glad I asked then.... I would have been chasing my tail for a long time if that ended up being the culprit. Guess I'll order some for good measure then.

My currnet theory though is that the right slide got a little stuck with grit, and messed things up... can't prove it, but I'm hoping it all goes back together well, and soon.

[headshrink]

These are $65 a pair at bikebandit!

cheapcycleparts were less, but they have them on backorder... so I went this B.B.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by headshrink

These are $65 a pair at bikebandit!

cheapcycleparts were less, but they have them on backorder... so I went this B.B.

yikes!! I hope these help for that price, but come to think of it, mine was about $30 for the dirt bike, but included the valve and a new seat. Does yours come with new seats as well?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

Does yours come with new seats as well?

LOL, no sir.... it doesn't even come with the little metal clip that it hangs on. At least that is what it looks like on the parts sheet, but they may surprise me. Separately the little metal hangy clips are ~ $5 ea!

[g21-30]

And why didn't you check riverrat? Always 30-40% off retail, which is 15% more than cheapcycle!

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by g21-30

And why didn't you check riverrat? Always 30-40% off retail, which is 15% more than cheapcycle!

I am unfamiliar with riverrat. Google only lists a dealer in AZ, and local raft rentals.

[g21-30]

http://www.riverratmotorsports.com/
Arizona

If you want FACTORY parts, you can't beat their prices!

[headshrink]

Update: It should be fixed, at the cost of a very sore back.

- I replaced the broken starter & starter cable = $45 (my fault, not part of original problem).
- I replaced the float valves = $65 (not obvious if it was part of the problem, but took the opportunity to rule it out).
- Replaced the spark plugs = $10 (Right one a little fouled from too much gas)
- Cleaned carbs = hurt back (carbs were clean, EXCEPT for the right slide, which didn't move freely due to potential piece of grit, or binding spring)
- Returned mixture back to 3 turns (which has been my setting for a while)

I primed the carbs before I started it for the first time. It too two attempts.... In the end I had to keep the throttle back to get it to start, then hold it until it warmed a few degrees. Hopefully it is now officially fixed, but if I continue to have difficulty starting without opening the throttle, I may have something else going on. Will report if that is the case.

[headshrink]

It may have started better today than it ever has. The first start was with a surface charge (also no choke), but after work it was the same thing, but wasn't on the charger

[randomwalk101]

So what was the prob? Fouled plugs or float needle?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

So what was the prob? Fouled plugs or float needle?

Possibly, but since the right slide was binding, I'm sure that didn't help.

[mrlmd]

It's been interesting to follow this thread.
Lots of fussing, lots of expense, little real knowledge or analysis of what's going on, a lot of guesswork. Also - Lots of mods that tend to mess things up and don't add much to performance or reliability (just my opinion, don't hate me for that).
I don't know if anything you did made it run better. Next time, and for the future, put some Berryman's B12 Chemtool or Seafoam in every three or four tankfuls of gas to keep your carbs clean and you shouldn't have this problem. I doubt that 2 year old carb floats "wear out", that you have to adjust the mixture because the temp dropped ?10-20 degrees.
If you get the bike running again because maybe you flooded it or had a dirty carb, stop messing with it and just ride it.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by mrlmd

stop messing with it and just ride it.

But I'm a boy.... and its a motorcycle.

[headshrink]

Bike started easily, but needed some coaxking to keep idle up until it gained a few degrees (would drop to point oil light would go on until I pulled the RPM up). After warming up, I noticed the idle was resting a little high (+~50-100rpm). However, last night I poured some Seafoam into the tank, and today is coooold (for here). Would that explain the high idle? I'm thinking the Seafoam primarily.

[GiGs]

Must admit I haven't read the whole thread, just the last few posts but thought I would add in something that should be checked. When my carbs were not sync'ed properly my idle was high when the bike was tilted and low when upright (and 1 spark plug was darker ).

I synced them perfectly with a block of wood under the stand - I found that syncing them using stands wasn't the same once lowered.

[mrlmd]

Are you using the choke (which is an enricher circuit) to start the bike? That's normal operating procedure, and not using it may be why you're having such a hard time starting it. Read your owners manual. With the choke on, it will idle fast 'till it gets adjusted down (off) when the bike is fully warmed up.
The idle speed should be measured with a fully warmed up engine, and 50-100 rpm over is not too high. What rpm are you talking about when the engine is fully warmed up, like after a ride, not after just running it in the driveway for a few minutes?
Adding too much Seafoam to the gas, like over 2 Oz/gal may make the bike run like crap. Just use it in the recommended dose, more is NOT better.
And like I said before, stop thinking, stop tinkering, if it runs, leave it alone.

[headshrink]

GiGs: Yes, I did sync the carbs. That is interesting about keeping it level, but makes sense. I do all my work on stands though, so it should be level enough.

mrlmd: Typically, I have only needed to use the choke when the weather is really cold. I say that is the only time I have "needed" to, because my bike otherwise starts, warms, and rides happily enough. Of course, as I work toward dialing in the tunning, I do notice a noticeable difference between running to much or to little fuel down low. I do suspect, however, that since it is starting so quickly right now w/o choke, it may be a little rich yet..... but then again, I have to keep on the throttle/ or choke to get it to stay on (I'll have to think about a sec.). It seems like it should be fairly straightforward, but I was waiting until I had burnt all that Seafoam out of the tank, and reserve final judgment for then. It makes sense to me that it may just burn a little funky until then.

Ahhh, just saw your comment on the Seafoam.... since I was guessing what an ounce looks like, I may have added too much, so that could be it.

This may be nothing, but my oil light went on for a couple sec. during warm up today (EDIT: 2 different times, not just the initial few seconds after start-up). It caught my attention when it was idle/choking at 2.5-3Krpm at around 70+ degrees (have a digi sensor). I'll change the oil today, which I'm hoping will fix that. I'm not missing any oil, and if I go 2000 miles between changes, I have been lazy.... so I don't think it is a lack of oil maintainance.... we shall see.

[GiGs]

^^ don't forget to 'burp' it before finishing (fill up your oil filter, fill up your bike, unscrew the oil filter very slowly until oil starts dripping then tighten it back up).

If you want to get your tuning perfect get a wideband O2 sensor, I did and I will never do any work ever again without one...made such a performance change and I love the bike so much more now.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by GiGs

^^ don't forget to 'burp' it before finishing (fill up your oil filter, fill up your bike, unscrew the oil filter very slowly until oil starts dripping then tighten it back up).

If you want to get your tuning perfect get a wideband O2 sensor, I did and I will never do any work ever again without one...made such a performance change and I love the bike so much more now.

I have NEVER heard of burping an oil filter before. My normal procedure has been to fill mostly full, start up for a few seconds to fill oil fillter, then add the rest of the oil as this makes room for the rest.

O2 sensor? Are the AUS bikes FI? If there was a portable unit I could temporarily slip down into the pipe for my carb model (hooked to either a gauge or laptop), that I might consider..... but I don't want to have a bung drilled and welded into my existing Area P header.

[GiGs]

I have NEVER heard of burping an oil filter before.........

Not the oil filter per-sa but the system....it's to expel any air bubbles that have developed (if you read around some people will state that they have filled there bikes up and the oil light stays on etc).

O2 sensor? Are the AUS bikes FI?......

No Oz bikes are carbed, I had an O2 sensor bung welded onto my full Yoshi exhaust so I could screw in an O2 sensor and hook it up to a gauge (for perfect tuning)

If there was a portable unit I could temporarily slip down into the pipe for my carb model (hooked to either a gauge or laptop), that I might consider.....

There are, but they are much more expensive.

I don't want to have a bung drilled and welded into my existing Area P header.

You can get a plug for it when your done...