250R NA Build - Ultimate

[mgentz]

well....I did say Ultimate

[garth285]

That is for sure! Keep up the good work!

I'll have to put a call into APE and see if they still have those valve springs!

[mgentz]

they should still have my data. I think they used springs off a 600. I also believe my intakes were the exhaust valves from an R1. However, it has been a while on both accounts, so I could be wrong.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by mgentz

they should still have my data. I think they used springs off a 600. I also believe my intakes were the exhaust valves from an R1. However, it has been a while on both accounts, so I could be wrong.

Thank you! I'll get in touch with them, if you happen to have any info please let me know

[Somchai]

Any progress?

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Any progress?

so...I haven't been on the site for months but I will update you.

I finally got it tuned up about perfect and everything was running great. Then the valves closed up. I shimmed and ran her again for a few hundred miles until the closed up again. All-in-all, 2,000 street miles and my valves have moved 1.5-2.0 mm. Yes, you read that right. To be honest, I am surprised the freaking heads didn't snap off and fall into the cylinders!

Needless to say, she has been down for awhile, and now I am sending the head back to APE for them to investigate and correct. Here's to next year!

What I can say is that she ran STRONG.

[mgentz]

Oh...I forgot the other fun item this year. The webcam intake cam broke in half on me. I changed to BEET cams about mid-year.

[Somchai]

Thx for the info.
WTF is this "my valves have moved 1.5-2.0 mm" and this "The webcam intake cam broke in half on me", but good to hear this "she ran STRONG" and you found a replacement from Beet already.
Good luck

[mgentz]

Yes, it has been an interesting year. I'll get her all fixed up and report next year. Sorry for the delay but I guess durability testing did not go so well on a few items.

[bruce71198]

I was wondering what happened to this project

[mgentz]

APE checked the head over and determined that I was losing my seats, literally. We're going with nickel/bronze seats and fresh valve jobs all around.

Also, an update to my specs, the valves are 1.5mm larger than stock.

[cuong-nutz]

Cause of losing your seats?

[choneofakind]

Clearly there were too many people already sitting in them!

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Clearly there were too many people already sitting in them!

Nice

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Cause of losing your seats?

In talking with Jeff, he has only ever seen this on one other bike, and he thought it might have been the EX500. He described to me that no two heads of either the 250 or the 300 that he has seen have been the same. He basically compared them to lawn tractors, and wondered where Kawasaki was getting them from. He also said that each head had different clearances, port profiles, directions, valve machining, basically everyting.

In the end, I got a "special" head where the seat material has seemingly been disappearing through the exhaust. Normally when you lose over 1 mm of clearance, the seat has actually beaten in the aluminum casting and an edge is felt or visible in the port. I had none of that. Or the valve face is ridged or deformed, or the seat is, or the valve has strectched. Again, none of that.

He said that I still had good sealing and that the valve face was still good. My seat has simply been eroding.

Scary when you think about it.

I don't think this is a problem with heads that have not been machined as stock bikes have gone great many miles with no issues.

[Flying]

So your valve has been chipping away your seats? Goodness.

[APEmike]

Originally Posted by Flying

So your valve has been chipping away your seats? Goodness.

It wasn't so much chipping away as simply disappearing. Very very odd situation. The seats LOOKED normal and the valve wasn't showing much wear at all. The verdict is the seat is so low quality from the factory that the heat of the extra horsepower was allowing it to slowly erode away and the valve spring pressure was keeping the 45* angle looking new.

To quote Jeff the OEM valves, seats, etc are "lawnmower quality"

@mgentz

Any progress?

[mgentz]

I have it all back together but I have yet to ride it. It's winter here!

While I was at it, I added a couple more toys:

Ohlins damper with BEET mount
Brembo RCS15
Custom front SS line
Rear Res delete
Block off pins
Chain holder

I will report back once it warms up

[APEmike]

What size tubing did you use for the rear res delete?

Jealous of the brake setup, I'm still stock and I cant even get the lever in the right position because the cast in res. hits the handle bar mount :/

[mgentz]

I believe it was 1/4"

[APEmike]

Much appreciated!

[mgentz]

Bike is all back together. Just need to wash it, lube the chain, put the fairings on, and ride!

Then I need to find a good dyno shop in the area again. It is amazing how few of these are around here.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by mgentz

Bike is all back together. Just need to wash it, lube the chain, put the fairings on, and ride!

Then I need to find a good dyno shop in the area again. It is amazing how few of these are around here.

You must have better weather in Milwaukee than around Madison then!

Just got about 3" of wet snow yesterday.

Not exactly in the area for you, but Motorcycle Performance (http://www.motorcycleperf.com/) in Madison has a dyno and knows their way around a motorcycle race engine.

[mgentz]

Milwaukee got rain.

I can always trailer her to get the readings.

[bruce71198]

Performance Cycle & Dyno Inc.
15517 Rte. 173
Harvard, IL 60033
Phone: 815-648-4440
Fax: 815-648-4259
These guys are just south of the border around hwy173 & 47 in Illinois. I use them and the prices are reasonable.

[APEmike]

Its in the 70s, nearly 80 today, how about you guys?

[mgentz]

I hate you

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I hate you

18 Degrees, a couple inches of snow. Do you feel better now?

[Racer x]

It's going to be -6 Deg F tonight. I don't like cold weather. This is going to suck.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Racer x

It's going to be -6 Deg F tonight. I don't like cold weather. This is going to suck.

Anything below 10 and it doesn't even bother me (at short periods of times). When its that cold I get the mail barefooted without a coat on. But when its below freezing, wet, and above 10 is what I hate. Tuesday two marines fresh from boot camp came into the office to show us recruits what it was like. That was one the the hardest runs I've ever done. I was one of like 5 not to fall out though, so that was cool.

[mgentz]

teens all week. just snowed. bike is ready....no place to go

[Racer x]

I just moved from Baltimore and I like the cold in Iowa. To cold to snow. Just stay inside and build the ultimate 250 ninja engine

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I just moved from Baltimore and I like the cold in Iowa. To cold to snow. Just stay inside and build the ultimate 250 ninja engine

maybe one day I'll add nitrous. But I will need your help!

[Racer x]

Anything I can do. It works great ,it just has to be handled with an eye on details. And I know you are good about that.

[mgentz]

so....the entire top end is off again. APE has been very helpful checking things out, and just today, they re-certified me that the head, cams, and valves are all tip top.

However, due to piston slap issues, I will now need to get new pistons, have the cylinder re-bored, and I am having it Nikasil plated. All-in-all, the cylinder will be THE best it can be as that coating is the #$%. This will help with better ring seal and ultimately, more HP.

this winter has been really weird....

[mgentz]

what ever happened to @tubarney?

for more information on a bad-a$$ build, check here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=263401

[mgentz]

...SHE LIVES!!!

Got her all together and fired up today. Took her out for a break in ride of about 30 min and she is definitely more peppy than I remember. I will do about 2-3 more break in type rides and then change the oil and go about my normal rides.

New MC was awesome....when I used the brakes....

[mgentz]

UPDATED items in italics

Where am I today:

Suspension
Forks redone and optimized by Ed Sorbo of Lindemann Engineering (Ed also added fork drains at the bottom of the forks so I can do oil changes w/o removing the forks.)
SSR Preload caps
Penske triple with LE valving and short reservoir hose (will mount to battery box)
Springs front and rear are based on my weight and riding style.
2010? Aluminum shock triangle for less weight!
SSR preload caps

Ignition
BRT-is
NGK CR8EIX plugs
Takai Racing Coils

Engine
APE Ported head with +1.5mm intake valves
APE custom springs
New guides, seals and retainers
Falicon ultra light crank mods
Falicon gram matched, shot peened and polished rods with bronze bushings
JE 13.5:1 pistons +2mm
BEET cams both intake and exhaust
new cam chain
new cam chain tensioner
ISF polished transmission
Worldwide ceramic transmission bearings
Custom SS oil line
New water pump and hoses
Nikasil cylinder coating
Thermobob 3
Engine EGR block off plates
Lots of new seals, gaskets and consumables (engine basically new)

Fuel/Intake
CR33 carbs full complement of jetting
K&N dual pod filter
water resistant filter cover
heat shield added to rear of engine for cooler air
heat shield added to underside of gas tank

Exhaust
Leo Vince carbon superbike exhaust with custom header flanges that perfectly match the head and pipe for superior flow (I don't need to use gaskets). Pics elsewhere.
NGK A/F ratio gauge installed

Frame and Controls
Motion Pro VR Throttle (50mm cam)
Motion Pro Right Cluster Switch
Heated Grips
WC Clip-ons
Stainless bolts where I could easily replace
Aluminum gas cap bolts, full aluminum race spec engine kit from ProBolt, AL sprocket nuts, TI brake bolts, TI oil drain bolt
Lightech Rearsets
Ohlins damper with BEET mount

Brakes
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake rotor (shaved off 13 oz or so!!!)
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake hanger (captive)
Braking full floating front rotor
Vesrah SJRL front pads
SS brake lines (both custom)
Brembo RCS15 radial master, reservoir, and custom bracket
Rear reservoir delete

Other Fun Stuff
Alien Motion Battery (4 Cell, weighs about 1 lb)
Pirelli Rosso II tires 110/140 moving to Dunlop A3’s next
MicroBlue Ceramic Wheel Bearings
Repainted lower half of the engine case
New sprockets with a 520 non-oring chain (15/43)
LP high performance coolant (no mixing)
Yoshimura Fender eliminator
Fully safety wired past WERA/AMA specs
Kawasaki DB windscreen
Spears Racing Chain Holder
Battery Tender
Super Bright Full LED tail light
Captive front wheel spacers (eliminates speedo)

[mgentz]

So...wow...has it been a while since I posted. Life...

In any case, I am considering selling the bike with all of the upgrades listed in the post below. But questions for the community:

1) Sell whole or part out?
2) If whole, what would be a fair price? Total mileage is around 17K.
3) Any takers?

Bike:

Suspension
Forks redone and optimized by Ed Sorbo of Lindemann Engineering (Ed also added fork drains at the bottom of the forks so I can do oil changes w/o removing the forks.)
SSR Preload caps
Penske triple with LE valving and short reservoir hose (mounted to battery box)
Springs front and rear are based on my weight and riding style. (180 pounds)
2010 Aluminum shock triangle for less weight!

Ignition
BRT-is (comes w/programmer)
NGK CR8EIX plugs
Takai Racing Coils

Engine
APE Ported head with +1.5mm intake valves
APE custom springs
New guides, seals and retainers
Falicon ultra light crank mods
Falicon gram matched, shot peened and polished rods with bronze bushings
JE 13.5:1 pistons +2mm
BEET cams both intake and exhaust
new cam chain
new cam chain tensioner
ISF polished transmission
Worldwide ceramic transmission bearings
Custom SS oil line
New water pump and hoses
Nikasil cylinder coating
Thermobob 3
Engine EGR block off plates
Lots of new seals, gaskets and consumables (engine basically new)

Fuel/Intake
CR31 carbs full complement of jetting
Remote idle adjustment screw.
K&N dual pod filter or airbox. Airbox currently mounted.
water resistant filter cover (for pod)
heat shield added to rear of engine for cooler air
heat shield added to underside of gas tank

Exhaust
Leo Vince carbon superbike exhaust with custom header flanges that perfectly match the head and pipe for superior flow (I don't need to use gaskets). Pics elsewhere.
NGK A/F ratio gauge installed

Frame and Controls
Motion Pro VR Throttle (50mm cam)
Motion Pro Right Cluster Switch
Heated Grips
WC Clip-ons
Stainless bolts where I could easily replace
Aluminum gas cap bolts, full aluminum race spec engine kit from ProBolt, AL sprocket nuts, TI brake bolts, TI oil drain bolt
Lightech Rearsets
Ohlins damper with BEET mount

Brakes
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake rotor (shaved off 13 oz or so!!!)
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake hanger (captive)
Braking full floating front rotor
Vesrah SJRL front pads
SS brake lines (both custom)
Brembo RCS15 radial master, reservoir, and custom bracket
Rear reservoir delete

Other Fun Stuff
Newer tires 110/140
MicroBlue Ceramic Wheel Bearings
Repainted lower half of the engine case
New sprockets with a new 520 non-oring chain (15/43)
LP high performance coolant (no mixing)
Yoshimura Fender eliminator
Fully safety wired past WERA/AMA specs
Kawasaki DB windscreen
Spears Racing Chain Holder
Battery Tender
Super Bright Full LED tail light
Super bright headlights
Captive front wheel spacers (eliminates speedo)

plus whatever I am forgetting....

[JayVapes]

Originally Posted by mgentz

NA = Naturally Aspirated

I thought I would start this thread instead of always replying to the BEET Camshaft thread. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122108

I would invite @tubarney to post here as well since he and I are building similar bikes.

Mine will be a 265 cc, 12.5:1 advertised monster. The head has been ported by APE, the cams have been welded and upgraded by Web cams and the crank is being ultra-lightened and balanced by Falicon. In addition, all systems on the bike are being upgraded, brakes, suspension, fuel, ignition, etc. I will post those items here as well, but it should be easy enough to sort through.

With that, I will begin pic posting [heavily] once my crank arrives. Until then, I will just try to post my small updates.

Thanks to anyone who cares.

If youre getting rid of the coasting enricher let me know please.