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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #81
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Good looking graph so far! Definitely the carbs are choking the motor up top after 9K. Your HP curve should continue to climb up and past 45 HP and your torque should stay relatively flat past 9k instead of dropping.

Do you have your AFR recorded as well? Pods and what gas were you running?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #82
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Good looking graph so far! Definitely the carbs are choking the motor up top after 9K. Your HP curve should continue to climb up and past 45 HP and your torque should stay relatively flat past 9k instead of dropping.

Do you have your AFR recorded as well? Pods and what gas were you running?
I dont have the air/fuel graph handy. I think I have it narrowed down to the air bleed in the carb inlet. I dont know if I will mess with it or start dialing in the 32's I have for it.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:43 PM   #83
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yowza!
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Old July 17th, 2014, 06:37 AM   #84
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man that thing must be a hoot to ride, want want want
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Old July 17th, 2014, 09:49 AM   #85
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Nicely done on the build and impressive results!

I know you aren't done yet!
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Old July 17th, 2014, 10:11 AM   #86
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Taking it to Blackhawk Farms raceway this weekend, hoping to run ir with the SV650's, we'll see what happens
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Old July 17th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #87
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Hey, what kind of fuel do ya run?
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Old July 17th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #88
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Taking it to Blackhawk Farms raceway this weekend, hoping to run ir with the SV650's, we'll see what happens
GoPro that sucker
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Old July 17th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #89
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where did you get the 300 pieces? what did they cost, give or take?
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Old July 17th, 2014, 11:52 AM   #90
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eBay for the crank and rods as well as the Wisco pistons. So this all went like this: $299 for the crank free shipping, $230 for the pistons free shipping,$304 for balancing the crank plus $30 shipping, $100 to bore the cylinders here I. Town, $110 gasket set free shipping. So about $1170 out of pocket so far. The clutch is slipping so a new Barnett is on it's way with springs. Oh ya about $35 in jets and $100 dyno time.
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Old July 17th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #91
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Hey, what kind of fuel do ya run?
110 Sunoco but you can build it to run on pump gas
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Old July 18th, 2014, 03:20 AM   #92
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Quote:
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eBay for the crank and rods as well as the Wisco pistons. So this all went like this: $299 for the crank free shipping, $230 for the pistons free shipping,$304 for balancing the crank plus $30 shipping, $100 to bore the cylinders here I. Town, $110 gasket set free shipping. So about $1170 out of pocket so far. The clutch is slipping so a new Barnett is on it's way with springs. Oh ya about $35 in jets and $100 dyno time.
goodness !! and I thought that my build was costly !! I ordered a 300 engine from Germany without stator/rotor and starter gear (but with 300 TBs, starter and fuel pump) and it all cost 1000 euros (about 1200$)+ a whole 67mm piston and all aluminum block bore kit (with gaskets, pins, rings etc) for 300e more and all along with some work to be done on head and pistons about 200e more so it's pretty close even if a bit more... I chose the 300's whole engine mostly for its better oil cooling efficiency, the slipper clutch and the larger intake port and valves...however I will use the 250's electric system...

I think those heavier V2s will have a hard time round a tight cornered track with your new little beast Bruce... hope you enjoy it and get us some video/photos...
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Old July 21st, 2014, 07:30 AM   #93
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Well, we ran the snot out of this bike over the weekend. I raced it in the Light Weight classes and my son ran it in the Ultra Light Weight classes. I was able to race up into the SV crowd but couldnt catch the fast guys. Caught and passed most of the Buell 1200's in LW super bike/super twins combined. The weekend ended sunday with a blown head gasket. I'm thinking a bigger radiator is in order. My fastest ever lap time, at this track, on my stock bike, was a 1:23.9 but usually run around in the 1:24's, I got down into the 1:19's (1:19.2 the fastest) on several laps and consistant 1:20's.

Last futzed with by bruce71198; July 21st, 2014 at 07:33 AM. Reason: left out info
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Old July 21st, 2014, 07:36 AM   #94
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What about an oil cooler as well? Those aren't too expensive and are likely a good idea for you.
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Old July 21st, 2014, 08:13 AM   #95
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Talk to Mordy about the gasket. I already paid the RnD for the new gen head gasket pattern. You will just need a bore change.

http://www.headgasket.com/index.html
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Old July 21st, 2014, 08:28 AM   #96
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Fantastic work, this is awesome! 1:19 at Blackhawk is blazing. You were going like hell at Gateway too.

Where exactly is this shop so I can drop my 250 off for ya, haha.
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Old July 21st, 2014, 09:24 AM   #97
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What about an oil cooler as well? Those aren't too expensive and are likely a good idea for you.
This may be a good solution. Tap in at the line going to the head??
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Talk to Mordy about the gasket. I already paid the RnD for the new gen head gasket pattern. You will just need a bore change.
http://www.headgasket.com/index.html
Thanks for the contact, ordered. Dropped your name.

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Fantastic work, this is awesome! 1:19 at Blackhawk is blazing. You were going like hell at Gateway too.
Where exactly is this shop so I can drop my 250 off for ya, haha.
It was a fast pace. Pissed off the Buell riders. Gateway was on my stock 28.6 HP bike.

Crystal Lake, about 40 miles NW from you.

Last futzed with by bruce71198; July 21st, 2014 at 09:32 AM. Reason: messed up quotes
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Old July 21st, 2014, 10:45 AM   #98
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If you are interested in head studs I'm trying to get ARP to make us some. I'll keep ya posted!
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Old July 21st, 2014, 10:46 AM   #99
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If you are interested in head studs I'm trying to get ARP to make us some. I'll keep ya posted!
Ya I will go in with you I need three full sets
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Old July 21st, 2014, 10:47 AM   #100
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Perfect, I'll mention that to them.

Question for ya sorry to be off topic, but do you think the 6 main head bolts would be good enough for studs and then run a stock bolt on the 7th short bolt?
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Old July 21st, 2014, 10:55 AM   #101
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If you are interested in head studs I'm trying to get ARP to make us some. I'll keep ya posted!
keep me in the loop. I will need 2 sets soon
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Old July 21st, 2014, 11:19 AM   #102
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It was a fast pace. Pissed off the Buell riders. Gateway was on my stock 28.6 HP bike.

Crystal Lake, about 40 miles NW from you.
I sat out the race on Sunday since I wanted to watch and you were really moving, it's a shame you crashed in turn 6. Planning on coming down again any time soon?

I was mostly joking about the shop since I gotta keep my bike legal. Then again I doubt even with 40 hp I'd be able to get on the podium, so all that would happen is I'd get some disapproving looks down the straightaways...
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Old July 21st, 2014, 11:22 AM   #103
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I sat out the race on Sunday since I wanted to watch and you were really moving, it's a shame you crashed in turn 6. Planning on coming down again any time soon?

I was mostly joking about the shop since I gotta keep my bike legal. Then again I doubt even with 40 hp I'd be able to get on the podium, so all that would happen is I'd get some disapproving looks down the straightaways...
Is MCRA running there any time soon?
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Old July 21st, 2014, 11:24 AM   #104
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Is MCRA running there any time soon?
We're back there Aug 16 and 17 which'll be our last event at Gateway this year.
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Old July 21st, 2014, 11:32 AM   #105
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Perfect, I'll mention that to them.

Question for ya sorry to be off topic, but do you think the 6 main head bolts would be good enough for studs and then run a stock bolt on the 7th short bolt?
NOOO don't do that. And remember the stud needs to bottom out tight and still clear the cam.
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Old July 21st, 2014, 12:00 PM   #106
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10-4
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Old July 21st, 2014, 12:00 PM   #107
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Bruce, there's an oil cooler made for our bikes. There are Chinese knockoffs of the one made on eBay. Search the reviews here. @DaBlue1 has the original one
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Old July 21st, 2014, 04:58 PM   #108
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What about an oil cooler as well? Those aren't too expensive and are likely a good idea for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
This may be a good solution. Tap in at the line going to the head??
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Originally Posted by cuong-nutz View Post
...there's an oil cooler made for our bikes. There are Chinese knockoffs of the one made on eBay.

Here is some info on the engine oil cooler if your interested. back when i got mine, there were a few who were using them in races in Thailand, where Ninja 250 racing is big.. You may be able to see the cooler on the Ninja 250 in the pic below.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ine+oil+cooler

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ght=oil+cooler



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Old July 22nd, 2014, 03:53 AM   #109
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Well, we ran the snot out of this bike over the weekend. I raced it in the Light Weight classes and my son ran it in the Ultra Light Weight classes. I was able to race up into the SV crowd but couldnt catch the fast guys. Caught and passed most of the Buell 1200's in LW super bike/super twins combined. The weekend ended sunday with a blown head gasket. I'm thinking a bigger radiator is in order. My fastest ever lap time, at this track, on my stock bike, was a 1:23.9 but usually run around in the 1:24's, I got down into the 1:19's (1:19.2 the fastest) on several laps and consistant 1:20's.
Bruce my experience taking the 250 to the track in temperatures up to 40 degrees Celcius (104 F !!) was that the huge problem is oil cooling... in Italy there has been for about 5 years a championship for newbies with 250s and I was in contact with them during their first efforts to overcome this problem. Working with bigger water coolers, fans etc ended up in having low coolant temp but boiling oil and hotspots and coldspots eventually either melting/broken valves or pistons...I had the same issues myself. I tried oil coolers from a suzuki V-strom 1000(same as kawa KLV) and it got better but not enough. The problem is there is just not enough space for a big enough oil cooler and in addition there is the way air gets there(in fact it doesn't). the fairing has not a design destined to send air in a way to do that kind of work and the speed we have during a track session is simply not high enough to cool oil down. That is the most important reason why most of the guys there have switched to 300s... I don't know exactly what you can do about it but the larger refrigerator is definetely NOT the solution...
The oil coolers in the pictures do the job just because these 250s are... 250s... no high compression, no extra ccs, just exhaust and jetting or PC Vs...you need sth way bigger...
I agree of course on getting ARP studs (I wish I could get a set too...) but I don't think a special gasket will make a difference (I believe you have chaecked both head and block for warp because of taking them apart and sleeving before re-bolting them together)
Trying an oil cooler will definetely help but try the biggest you can put there because it stays hot not only because of the exhaust pipes but also becuse of lack of fresh flowing air (front wheel in combination with moderate speeds aren't much of a help there)
I hope you make it and get back on the track soon, having overcome those minor issues...
I wish I could just watch you going past those Buells...
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 05:05 AM   #110
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@bruce71198 - don't go with salad oil, your oil should be Motul 300V 15W50 100% Synthetic – Ester Core Technology (Ester means that the oil temp in higher ranges is reduced by up to 10 degrees Celsius).
The highest temps for racing oils is up to 160 deg. Celsius (some even 180 deg. C.), what you normally shouldn't reach.
My Ninja here in high temperature environment when in move doesn't go above 95 deg. C., when I wait at the signals the temp. can reach app. 105 deg. C. but that all is far away from the highest value.
By the way I have the oil cooler and with the Koso RX2 I can read the oil temperature also and that I measure in the main stream (not at the oil drain plug).
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 05:40 AM   #111
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@bruce71198 - don't go with salad oil, your oil should be Motul 300V 15W50 100% Synthetic – Ester Core Technology (Ester means that the oil temp in higher ranges is reduced by up to 10 degrees Celsius).
The highest temps for racing oils is up to 160 deg. Celsius (some even 180 deg. C.), what you normally shouldn't reach.
My Ninja here in high temperature environment when in move doesn't go above 95 deg. C., when I wait at the signals the temp. can reach app. 105 deg. C. but that all is far away from the highest value.
By the way I have the oil cooler and with the Koso RX2 I can read the oil temperature also and that I measure in the main stream (not at the oil drain plug).
sure thing oil has to be of top quality for track use... I am using just what you suggest Somchai... however in tight tracks I've seen as high as 140 Celcius in mine (!!!) while coolant was still at about 90...
I had a base CR of 13,9:1 and +2 degrees advance timing and that was part of the reason for it. Bruce has not that high a CR however the big pistons move closer to each other and heat cannot dissipate that easily in those casings and sleeves...
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 05:42 AM   #112
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I miss the small of Motul 300V.... That stuff was THE BEST!!!! A ton of the top speed racing guys all run that. My 208mph ZX-10r ran 300V!
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 05:56 AM   #113
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sure thing oil has to be of top quality for track use... I am using just what you suggest Somchai... however in tight tracks I've seen as high as 140 Celcius in mine (!!!) while coolant was still at about 90...
I had a base CR of 13,9:1 and +2 degrees advance timing and that was part of the reason for it. Bruce has not that high a CR however the big pistons move closer to each other and heat cannot dissipate that easily in those casings and sleeves...
Nick, thanks and with respect the +2 degrees advanced timing must not be any reason for higher temperature - the ignition of my Ninjette is advanced by +5 degrees and since that time the temperature for water is lower then before by app. 8 degrees Celsius while the temperature of the oil looks to be the same temperature like before.
Also it's given that my temperature for sure is lower than a Ninja used in a race.
It's important to have a good inside cooling from a rich enough setup in fuel.
Your tipp from before about the Italian water cooler I think is a very good one, it also seems to be lighter than oem and at least in a bike like this I would use an electrical water pump (what brings up to 3-4 hp with the 2-fiddy).
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:10 AM   #114
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So I am a bit confused, is that oil cooler available in the states or no? If not is there an equivalent unit sold that we know of. Seems like a decent idea for a hard ridden bike.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:48 AM   #115
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So I am a bit confused, is that oil cooler available in the states or no? If not is there an equivalent unit sold that we know of. Seems like a decent idea for a hard ridden bike.
Really Cool Ninja 250/300 products are not available in the states. Sorry.
I haven't seen an equivalent unit sold in the states yet or at least no one has installed or posted one up.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:09 AM   #116
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Check eBay. There is a similar looking "universal " oil cooler on there.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:03 AM   #117
Racer x
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I got an oil cooler from Ecotrons. Comes with hoses and fittings.

Heat is a real issue on these engines. I run WFO for a mile spray nitrous for half that distance. Fuel mixture is critical over all. But a large radiator and air flow is also important. I use engine ice for coolant.

Copper head gaskets also help dissipate heat.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:14 AM   #118
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I got an oil cooler from Ecotrons. Comes with hoses and fittings.
Is this the one you got?

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Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:16 AM   #119
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Info for anyone interested in a cooler.

http://xtrememotor-shop.com/products.php?cariproduk=cooler&cari=SEARCH
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:25 AM   #120
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110 Sunoco but you can build it to run on pump gas
Think running this fuel had anything to do with your problem?
What air filter are you using?
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