335cc

[xorbe]

Just as a matter of curiosity, starting with a warmed up idling bike, on the track how long does it take at wot for the oil temp to climb into an uncomfortably high range without an oil cooler? ie, how fast does heat saturation occur?

[bruce71198]

Let me jusst run a thought by you, Most of the heat in an engine is created in the combustion chamber, the oil picks up this heat as it runs back to the crank case, if I remove the eccess heat with the coolant that should elieviate the hot oil, correct?= bigger radiator?

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by xorbe

Just as a matter of curiosity, starting with a warmed up idling bike, on the track how long does it take at wot for the oil temp to climb into an uncomfortably high range without an oil cooler? ie, how fast does heat saturation occur?

We where running a 25 minute race the bike overheated in the last 5 minutes. We had no problem in a 10 minute race. and we had no problem with the stock engine at all, even in a 2.5 hour race in Florida.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Is this the one you got?

That's the one. I'm using it on the turbo bike.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Think running this fuel had anything to do with your problem?
What air filter are you using?

I dont think its the fuel. I think I increased the heat output of the engine above and beyond what the OE engineers designed the cooling system for. 1 Oval pod K&N air filter.

[Racer x]

The radiator I made is basically the same size area of the core but twice as thick. The side tanks are also double size but the hoses are stock. So far it all works. If it was all made of aluminum it would be better. But that would have cost a lot more than 400 dollars.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

..... if I remove the excess heat with the coolant that should alleviate the hot oil, correct?= bigger radiator?

Sometimes a bigger radiator can help, but the rate of coolant flow should be increased as well. If the specific heat of the coolant is essentially constant and the coolant flow rate is constant at the rated engine speed, the coolant temperature drop through the radiator will be constant.

A cooling system that has a heat load and coolant flow rate that results in a 10 degree F coolant temperature drop through the radiator will have that same coolant temperature drop whether the radiator has a very small face area and flat fins or a very large face area and bigger louvered fins.

In other words a water pump with a higher flow rate maybe needed. (side note* the water pump impellers for the Ninja 250 are different than the Ninja 300, as well as the water pump P/N#'s)

Cooling both the oil and radiator coolant separately can help reduce overall engine temps with the stock flow rates for both oil and water pumps still intact. Also improving airflow to not only to the radiator, but the engine as well, is critical.

Having a really thin crankcase-head oil tube sandwiched between a hot engine and super hot exhaust doesn't help at all. Putting it in front of the heat has enough benefit to potentially drop the temp just enough from being critical. It's a little easier to keep the bike cool when the ambient temps are below 90 degrees fahrenheit, so every little thing counts.

Just my 2 cents.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Sometimes a bigger radiator can help, but the rate of coolant flow should be increased as well. If the specific heat of the coolant is essentially constant and the coolant flow rate is constant at the rated engine speed, the coolant temperature drop through the radiator will be constant.

A cooling system that has a heat load and coolant flow rate that results in a 10 degree F coolant temperature drop through the radiator will have that same coolant temperature drop whether the radiator has a very small face area and flat fins or a very large face area and bigger louvered fins.

In other words a water pump with a higher flow rate maybe needed.

Cooling both the oil and radiator coolant separately can help reduce overall engine temps with the stock flow rates for both still intact. Also improving airflow to not only to the radiator, but the engine as well, is critical.

Having a really thin crankcase-head oil tube sandwiched between a hot engine and super hot exhaust doesn't help at all. Putting it in front of the heat has enough benefit to potentially drop the temp just enough from being critical. It's a little easier to keep the bike cool when the ambient temps are below 90 degrees fahrenheit, so every little thing counts.

Just my 2 cents.

yeah, I totally agree with you !! But what can we do about the water pump ? Can we fit sth from another model or what ?? haven't heard of anyone doing that yet and I've no idea how I could possibly do that... any suggestions/ideas ?

question... @cuong-nutz who has taken apart both engines...(or anyone else who might know...) part numbers may be different but do the water pumps of the 250 and 300 interchange or not ?? does the 300 fit the 250 (same size externally??) cos I think the 300 is a bit better flow-wise...

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

yeah, I totally agree with you !! But what can we do about the water pump ? Can we fit sth from another model or what ?? haven't heard of anyone doing that yet and I've no idea how I could possibly do that... any suggestions/ideas ?

question... @cuong-nutz who has taken apart both engines...(or anyone else who might know... do the water pumps of the 250 and 300 interchange or not ?? does the 300 fit the 250 ?? cos I think the 300 is a bit better flow-wise...

The water pumps for the Ninja 250 and 300 are different. At least the impellers are. Not sure about the flow rates, but I can't imagine it not being increased with an increase in engine displacement.

Maybe @cuong-nutz could do a little experimentation to see if they are interchangeable.

[Racer x]

I am going to an electric pump. But I'm not convinced the one I have 1000gph will be better than stock. I don't know what the stock pump flow rate is.

If you use a larger radiator. And a thermostat. The larger radiator should hold the water longer to allow it to shed the heat.

I increased the flow rate of the radiator. By using large open tanks on each side and a better flowing core I hope I have achieved better cooling. Seems OK but I really never had a cooling issue.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Racer x

....Seems OK but I really never had a cooling issue.

Of course not! Your motor only runs hard for 30 seconds a pop!

[DaBlue1]

Here is another thing to consider. The Spin-On Oil Filter Adaptor Kit from Bergmen Engineering, Inc.. It offers the convenience of utilizing a spin on filter, but it also allows a little more surface area on the crankcase and air to flow around the oil canister, all of that to help dissipate heat. Anytime you can remove heat away from the internals, the more apt you are to draw away a few degrees (under ideal conditions).

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27962

[Racer x]

Ya that's true. I am changing bearing clearance in my 250cc engine and starting with a cold engine. Compared to drag racing I run long. Compared to road racing I done even warm up. But if I get the head to hot I get detonation or preignition. And keeping the tips on the plugs has proven to be a challenge. Even without nitrous.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

We where running a 25 minute race the bike overheated in the last 5 minutes. We had no problem in a 10 minute race. and we had no problem with the stock engine at all, even in a 2.5 hour race in Florida.

What oil are you running? What temp did it (oil) reach in the 25 min race?

[garth285]

Question for ya, how much fuel do you run threw with 25 mins of racing?

[Racer x]

I would burn about 55 gallons

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Here is another thing to consider. The Spin-On Oil Filter Adaptor Kit from Bergmen Engineering, Inc.. It offers the convenience of utilizing a spin on filter, but it also allows a little more surface area on the crankcase and air to flow around the oil canister, all of that to help dissipate heat. Anytime you can remove heat away from the internals, the more apt you are to draw away a few degrees (under ideal conditions).

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27962

nice stuff !! didn't know there was sth like that marketed !! a bit expensive though...
and what about the 300 ?? anyone knows if there is an oil filter cooling base as an extra (the kind used on ZX-14 for exemple) or something ??

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by jkv45

What oil are you running? What temp did it (oil) reach in the 25 min race?

don't know how Bruce's engine is coping but mine in a 20 minute session with stock radiator filled up in undiluted "watter-wetter" stuck at 90 Celcius... oil steadily at 110 for most of it but during the last five min I could read sth between 130-140 Celcius with air temp at 40 celcius (104 F) and ground at 45 (!!) and pushing it really hard... engine felt a bit "breathless" and losing some power when reaching that oil temp... mine was EFI model, fully moded except for displacement with PC V and extra high revving at 15k+ on the tacho. AFR was mostly tuned at 13,1:1 at sea level...

[sharky nrk]

^^ interesting if the EFI models have an input that retards timing a bit or something when oil temp gets higher, I know it is a real issue on FA20 boxers. Does anyone make a oil temp dipstick like motocross bikes use? What oil were running Bruce? Or did I miss the answer? Did you have the fan removed on the bike? It can actually improve cooling at speed to pull that little guy but you have to be careful in the pits a bit.

[garth285]

Could always run one of these for oil temp - cheapo ebay stuff probably though:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Gauge-Di...d3a6ea&vxp=mtr

I have a nice yoshimura one I'll have on my turbo 250

[garth285]

Yosh gauge:

http://japan.webike.net/products/9397006.html

[Xtina]

how much gains would I get out of just porting and polishing my 300? I want some more power but not at the expense of having to need oil cooler etc. I want it to run with stock everything else.

[garth285]

Probably not to much, I could see if you are adding some compression it will help out but you can also loose power if you have the wrong person port a head. But I'm usre if you stay stock bore and have a good tune it wont get to hot.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Xtina

how much gains would I get out of just porting and polishing my 300? I want some more power but not at the expense of having to need oil cooler etc. I want it to run with stock everything else.

Thats a good question. Porting is designed to get more air into the engine so you, in turn, add more fuel to that increased amount of air thus producing more power. Being that your 300's fuel injection system is a "speed/density" set up you would need the resources to reprogram the fuel injection. If it was carbureted you would simply re jet it.

[Racer x]

Porting an otherwise stock engine can have little to negative effect on power. If the stock ports are not flowing there maximum. Making them bigger will slow down the air charge. The net result is less air past the valve.

[garth285]

I wonder if anyone has done an Epoxy head on a 250.... speeding up the air velocity works very well on the bigger bikes.

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Thats a good question. Porting is designed to get more air into the engine so you, in turn, add more fuel to that increased amount of air thus producing more power. Being that your 300's fuel injection system is a "speed/density" set up you would need the resources to reprogram the fuel injection. If it was carbureted you would simply re jet it.

I do have a flash tune kit at my disposal. But do you suggest anything else? I'm fairly new to engine stuff, but am decently well versed in all other aspects lol

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Xtina

.....I want some more power but not at the expense of having to need oil cooler etc. I want it to run with stock everything else.

Out of curiosity, what air filter are you using?

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Out of curiosity, what air filter are you using?

I have a K&N. I have a full Hindle on the way that will be couple with it.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Xtina

I have a K&N. I have a full Hindle on the way that will be couple with it.

Here's something to ponder over....

Think of an air filter (whether cotton gauze or foam) as being a compressible material. Each one has thousands of micro channels in which air flows thru. As the channels collapse and become smaller due to compression, air flow has to change direction, so that's it's flow becomes disturbed or becomes turbulent.

It's a well known fact that linear air flow is better than turbulent air. What if you had a filter that did not collapse under compression, offered linear airflow and a fuller cylinder? You'd potentially get more HP. Now add a better sparking plug to the fuller cylinder mix of air and fuel.....

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Here's something to ponder over....

Think of an air filter (whether cotton gauze or foam) as being a compressible material. Each one has thousands of micro channels in which air flows thru. As the channels collapse and become smaller due to compression, air flow has to change direction, so that's it's flow becomes disturbed or becomes turbulent.

It's a well known fact that linear air flow is better than turbulent air. What if you had a filter that did not collapse under compression, offered linear airflow and a fuller cylinder? You'd potentially get more HP. Now add a better sparking plug to the fuller cylinder mix of air and fuel.....

what filter do you suggest?

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Xtina

what filter do you suggest?

Glad you asked. I've been waiting for a racer to use this and post up some results.

Hurricane Racing Performance Air Filter

Tell me what you think.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Xtina

I do have a flash tune kit at my disposal. But do you suggest anything else? I'm fairly new to engine stuff, but am decently well versed in all other aspects lol

So, yes, it seems you will be able to gane some HP from the port work.

[cuong-nutz]

Water pump comparo.... I was a snack fer dem skeeters.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...8&postcount=58

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Xtina

I do have a flash tune kit at my disposal. But do you suggest anything else? I'm fairly new to engine stuff, but am decently well versed in all other aspects lol

you can alter camshaft timing or even better get a pair with more duration and lift... I designed my own and it showed +5 on the dyno but my design is quite radical and demands stiffer valve springs... stock cams work better when inlet one is at 105-106 degrees lobe center(stock position 100), exhaust at stock position, on 250 EFI model but they are exactly the same on the 300... but you have to increase base CR to at least 12,5:1 for that setup (I worked mine at 13,9:1)and/or more advanced ignition timing so as not to lose the bottom end...
porting gave an extra 3 hp (without polishing) but it was NOT about getting ports bigger, but better shaped for less turbulenced flow...in fact the only points reshaped were around valve guides and just a tiny bit behind the seats...
it is imperative to use some tuning kit like PC V because any of that will change a lot your A/F ratio...
porting and camshaft tuning does not increase heat production but both advanced timing and incrased CR do.... it's up to you to decide how far you want to go...
the hp figures mentioned are a result of these mods combined with the already existing full yoshi exhaust system, larger throttle bodies and a bunch of other stuff (but stock 250 ccs...)

[Racer x]

For all out porting I remove the guide tips completely.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Water pump comparo.... I was a snack fer dem skeeters.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...8&postcount=58

THANK YOU once more cuong-nutz !!!!
just for the info side of it... by the way you present it, it could be possible for the 250 water pump to be used in the 300 engine (even if less efficient) IF the shaft is shortened and reformed to fit the oil pump... or didn't I get it right ?

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

For all out porting I remove the guide tips completely.

It is definetely the ultimate and most rewarding solution flow-wise but I've had my 15k+ revving engine valves making the stock valve-guides oval-shaped....so on the secnd head I decided to stand back on that because good quality aftermarket valve guides are both expensive and hard to get (not to mention who would take out the stock and planting the new ones in place without destroying the head...) in my tiny little neighborhood...
so I had the ports and guides shaped kind of like Dr Suda did on his ZZ-R 1100 project....

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

THANK YOU once more cuong-nutz !!!!
just for the info side of it... by the way you present it, it could be possible for the 250 water pump to be used in the 300 engine (even if less efficient) IF the shaft is shortened and reformed to fit... or didn't I get it right ?

yes.

[Racer x]

I flow ported the exhaust to the custom header. 30 mm plus and raised the ceiling removed the are between the valves some and the guide tips. Nitrous is all about getting the gasses out. De shrouding the valves and using an intake cam on the exhaust got me 11 hp taking it from 50 to 61