IC Ignitor issues & power loss

[randomwalk101]

Anyone has this IC Ignitor issues & the power loss associating with it?



http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n...ic_igniter.htm

[Banzai]

Yes. I'm on my third CDI and my second tach, courtesy of the dealer and warranty. Do a quick search here and on the Kawiforums and you'll see it's pretty common. In fact, now that it's warming up all over and more riders are into thier second season with the new bikes, it's being reported more often.

Unlike this guy, I do not see any real performance issues or mileage problems with MY bike. Others have reported some power loss, others, like me, only get a difference in tach reading with no impact on performance. YMMV.

[Alex]

I've never noticed any weirdness with the tach, but I do wonder from time to time if the craptacular mileage I can get on the bike sometimes is solely due to me, or if it could potentially be something to do with the CDI box. What do you see on the tach to let you know that you may be having a problem? It reads a little differently (higher) when it gets warm? It flicker up and down? I've never noticed any performance issues in the least with the bike, but your post saying that you hadn't either yet you had experienced the issue makes me think...

[Banzai]

Usually you'll see one of two things that make you go Hmmmmmm

1. While accelerating, tach begins to bounce in any gear between 7500 and 9000 with engine accelerating as expected, then the needle will stabilize and remain linear as expected. SOME have reported that they do in fact get sputtering, and most who do have ruled out jetting issues or any other mod. This bouncing seems to be reported as often on the increas in RPMs as it does on the deceleration side.

or

2. Difference in RPMs between COLD operation and HOT operation for any given gear/speed. Usually, once the bike gets hot, most users report that the bike in HOT condition indicates 1000 RPM MORE than it does COLD to go the same speed. Some have mistakenly reported this as high speed/hot operation clutch slippage.

The only way that I've found to confirm that it's an indicating problem is to continue to rev and bounce off of the rev limiter. If you get revs indicating HIGHER than the rev limiter, it's an indicating problem (this is what I experience). If you get revs LOWER than the rev limiter, then you have a performance problem. Of course, it could ALSO be a rev limiter problem, too. No matter what, though, the root cause is a BAD CDI. Overall, it seems to be a 50/50 thing. Either you bike seems to have the problem, or it does not. But watch it, it may develop the problem as temperatures rise, especially if you have an 08 bike.

In the bikes where it seems to really affect performance, they report that gas mileage on longer trips or in hot weather suffers.

As the tach input uses the same wire that the CDI uses to signal one of the coils to trigger a spark, there's some debate as to wether it's actually an indicating problem (in which case a tach change should fix it) or a CDI related performance problem (in which case a new CDI should fix it). For most of us who have the problem, both tach and CDI swaps does not fix the problem. Couple that with the fact that different CDIs seem to display different problems, and it's a royal pain in the butt if your bike is infected.

For me, as far as I can tell, it's purely an indicating problem. The bike continues to pull hard when on throttle, and the tach jumps, and when the bike is hot it indicates the typical 1K faster engine rpm over cold performance. The kicker for me is some days it'll do it, some days not, but for ME, fuel mileage has remained consistent, lending some credance to my belief that it's an indicating problem.

Electron flow through the CDI is sometimes enough to cause the problem, even if ambient outside temp is "cold". Sometimes it takes riding on a 95 degree day to see it. Most who have the problem will likely never notice it, but the incidence of people having the problem is on the rise as reported here and on the Kawiforums.

Kawi will do the cycle of tach/cdi back and forth until either your warranty expires or you call it quits.

The real problem, wether it's purely an indicating or a real performance issue, is that Kawi spec'd crappy non-heat tolerant electronics for their CDI.

The second CDI that I had in my bike the tech guy at the dealer could actually make it fail or work by alternating a heat gun up to 100F as measured on the CDI case and an ice pack! Needless to say, he ordered another one! One odd thing, he hooked up another free standing tach to the other coil with the third CDI that he put in the bike, and it indicated just fine, but a different reading from the tach in the dash! That begs the question, if the trigger wire for coil 1 feeds the tach, and it's getting a signal that's AFU, but coil 2 is OK, then the bike should run like crap.

I don't know, but I'm not willing to be without the bike for an indicating problem, and I won't jeopardize a great working relationship with my shop guys over something that Kawi knows about, but can't or won't fix.

Right now, it's like the gas gauge issue (where the real problem is that there's too much tension on the wiper on the coil in the sender and the wiper button is too soft, causeing it to wear and short out the coil and indicate less overall resistance than it requires to give a consistent reading. Someone remind me later, I have a "bad" one that I intend to do a destructive photo spread on so that you can see the inner workings and know really what's going on!).....Kawi has blinders on!

[pantera]

It seems we need a poll to see how many people are seeing this strange problem.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by pantera

It seems we need a poll to see how many people are seeing this strange problem.

Yup, but relatively few overall owners are actuallly going to be on here, but at least we'll get a small sample of members. I bet, though, that most either don't recognize that they have it, or it just doesn't make enough of a difference to matter. Remember, Kawi says that 50% of all 250 owners are first time owners (who may not realize that there is a problem when they encounter it) and that 50% of those new owners are female (who may not realize that there is a problem when they encounter it).

Of the two local dealerships in my area that I talk to, they tell me that 08+ 250 CDI issues are on the rise as riding season gets warmer, and the gas gauge problem is one bike in 5! For the CDI, at least one service manager has a stack of 'em in a box in the corner....and Kawi doesn't want 'em back to test.....which tells me they alredy have enough failed units to test and/or just don't care.

That's one heck of a "YIKES" to me. To fix my gas gauge, they scavenged a sender unit from a bike they were just pulling out of the crate. I later found out that the guy that it was being assembled for had already waited 4 weeks for delivery, and another 5 days for the spare part.

[pantera]

What was the problem with your gas gauge?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by pantera

What was the problem with your gas gauge?

Not to derail the original thread, but I had the typical "indicated low when full, and empty way before half tank". I've taken apart 4 different "failed" senders, and they all had the same problem.....there is too much tension on the wiper arm causing the too soft wiper button in the sender to wear metal onto the coil wires and short out the last 1/3d of the sense coil. I'll do up a series of pictures and do a photo post sometime soon on it.

The non-lineararity of the indication is a function of the float arm geometry and the shape of the tank, but ideal indication is to show empty in the .8-.5 gallon range. With many bikes averaging in the 50+mpg range, thats roughly 25+/- miles until dead flat dry, much the same as a conventional petcock.

[bob706]

Is this a problem that just shows up out of nowhere or gets worse with time / temp?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by bob706

Is this a problem that just shows up out of nowhere or gets worse with time / temp?

It's temp related, usually shows up out of nowhere. That is, IF you have the problem, it will show up when the bike is at operating temperature, which it will reach faster on hotter days.

As for a progressively degenerating state once it appears, not that I've heard or experienced. Either you get the funky indications and no other issues, or you get the sputtering between 7500 and 9000, but no, it won't start to get any worse than that. In fact, when the bike is cool, or on cooler days, you may not see it at all, which may lead you to believe that you were seeing things, or that you must have been doing something wrong.

[pantera]

How warm does the temperature need to be outside before people are seeing this problem?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by pantera

How warm does the temperature need to be outside before people are seeing this problem?

OK, it doesn't need to be HOT outside to see this problem. Some have reported it with relatively mild temps in the 70s but on long rides. Electron flow through the CDI will get it hot, just like any other piece of electronics. Leave your TV or stereo on for a while, and it gets hot. Higher ambient temperatures only serves to make the problem show up faster.

The CDI is under the rear cowlings, behind the seat area and pretty much right under the lock for the rear seat, so it really gets NO cooling air flow. That, and there's really no where to draw cooling air in or out in any sort of duct (not that one should even be necessary, this problem shouldn't exist).

My first CDI had needle bounce on somewhere in the hot range in the mid 70s weather, but after about 30 miles of traffic. My second would fail if the shop guy got it hot with a hair dryer. My third one shows needle bounce now with the weather in the mid 80s after about 50 miles of traffic, but NOT always (which is a real pain in the butt).

I think that pretty much sums up the nature of the beast, each CDI will do something slightly different, and since it's temperature dependant, it's relatively hard to reproduce for the shop consistently enough to convince them there's a problem unless they see it for themselves. I'm lucky enough to have some really good shop guys locally.

And Kawi knows about this problem. When the shop calls them on the phone for tech assistance and to get parts sent to them, they don't even question it, just start the endless mantra of "swap the cdi, swap the tach, repeat".

[randomwalk101]

No fix yet...but just found out that the bike is out of warranty 2 days ago (may 29th)....this is great....

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

No fix yet...but just found out that the bike is out of warranty 2 days ago (may 29th)....this is great....

Are you getting any associated power or gas mileage loss? There are several CDIs for sale on ebay, but that's as much a crap shoot as the dealer.

As for swapping the tach, it's a stupid unit. It only displays information that the CDI sends it. My shop guys have yet to see a tach change this problem, and all have reported that "the new tach shows exactally what the old tach showed", so I think that remedy is a cheap stop gap while Kawi asseses the scope and depth of the problem both from a technical side and a financial side. If enough people don't have the problem, or ping the dealer enough times about it, either through related owner cost or ignorance that they REALLY have something out of spec, then they just flat out won't fix it on a general recall.

IF it ever gets fixed other than a general recall or dealer oriented cost free upgrade, it'll be in a later model year where they change the spec of the electronics, once the current supply contract expires and all of the legacy pieces of crap are either in bikes or shipped off to the repair parts suppliers.

[randomwalk101]

I think it's more of the design flaw..so even if you swap out, I think it'll be faulty anyways. I think adding a computer fan on top of the CDI to help cooling it out may worth a couple pennies here (Like Mr. Yeagers have done)

[Banzai]

Yes, it's a design flaw. They didn't spec electronics that tolerate a wide heat gradient.

As for the fan, unless the hot air has somewhere to go, all you're doing is circulating the hot air, which is basically useless and puts another drain on your electrical system for no good reason.

If you have problems at ambient temp on start up during the summer, or reach failure temp within a few minutes or miles, nothing will help except another CDI that ended up on the "long" end of the heat tolerance instead of the "short" end of it.

If we were talking about cars in the 70s and 80s, we'd call 'em Monday or Friday cars! If you're lucky enough to have a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday CDI, you have a nice little piece of gold!

[almost40]

Had Ignitor problem and was replaced, havent tested it yet as I have been busy. I just got the false reading, didnt have a performance issue. YES it only happened when it was WARMER.

[Buffalony]

I've had this problem and I want it fixed. havent taken her in yet. Im kinda of scared to get shruged off and rejected. I havent noticed any power loss not that I was really paying attention. How do you actually notice any power loss? My tach reading IS off by 1000 between hot and cold. I just wish Kawi would do a recall!!!

[randomwalk101]

recall is a no go...bc it's expensive and there is no true fix...all of the CDIs are made from the same mold..so replace one with other is like replacing a broken one with another broken one...what's the point?
I wonder if previous generations have this problem...

anyways, are these newer CDIs made in China or something...?

[Buffalony]

So what exactly is the problem with the CDI again? It gets too hot or a sensor?

The CDI's are over $300 to replace! is this a batch error?

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

So what exactly is the problem with the CDI again? It gets too hot or a sensor?

The CDI's are over $300 to replace! is this a batch error?

Lift your eyeballs up and read post #15

[Buffalony]

Chill with the kawiforums tude
I read that. Why doesnt it work properly when its hot?

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

Chill with the kawiforums tude
I read that. Why doesnt it work properly when its hot?

because the resistor #749 is 0.00001 nanometer too close to the lux capacitor #29 thus effectively decreasing the electron's steady flow by 3x10^3 m/s causing every 50th electron to collide with every 27th protons making the chip #86 to temporary malfunction for 0.005 seconds at a time which adversing causing a wrong signal sent to both tachnometer and ignition coils causing the errors. Got it? Stupid question = stupid answer

[backinthesaddleagain]

Occasionaly tach drops from 8,000 to 7,500 when accelerating, but bikes seems to be pulling fine. No mods on bike, bike is warm, choke is fully open. When I try to recreate it the bike pulls right up to redline. In fact on a deserted road at redline in 5th today I saw the biggest turkey I had ever seen ready to cross the road (and here I was keeping my eye out for deer).

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Anyone has this IC Ignitor issues & the power loss associating with it?



http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n...ic_igniter.htm

I have never seen so much write up about nothing as I have seen on that sight. The url sounds so official then you realize its just a guy writing about his ninja, his ford escort wagon, and a golf cart. Not saying there aren't some valid points on there, but to document the experiences one has riding a golf cart to work is a little too much time on ones hands for me.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

Chill with the kawiforums tude
I read that. Why doesnt it work properly when its hot?

As stated before, something in the electronics breaks down under load and when hot, causing it to fail. What that part is, I have no idea. I have not done a take apart look see on one yet, nor do I have the internal schematic.

[Buffalony]

the unit itself cant take the heat?

The guy says the unit was hot so he puts a PC fan in. Then he ends up saying the igniters he is cooling with the fan are still faulty.
Is it heating up because of the engine, the outside temp or it just heats up under normal operation? What if its simply a wire feeding the IC Igniter bad info because that wire itself is heating up? ya know.
though it is in an enclosed location it is alot further from the engine than the wiring.

Maybe its the ignition coil or the peak voltage adapter since it seems to be right against the coolant resv.?

[Banzai]

Please read post #4, especially the part where my tech guy got one to fail with a hair dryer blowing hot air onto the CDI. It's the CDI that goes bad. Engine heat, outside heat, and heat build up from electron flow. All three contribute.

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Banzai

The second CDI that I had in my bike the tech guy at the dealer could actually make it fail or work by alternating a heat gun up to 100F as measured on the CDI case and an ice pack! Needless to say, he ordered another one!
One odd thing, he hooked up another free standing tach to the other coil with the third CDI that he put in the bike, and it indicated just fine, but a different reading from the tach in the dash! That begs the question, if the trigger wire for coil 1 feeds the tach, and it's getting a signal that's AFU, but coil 2 is OK, then the bike should run like crap.

Refering to the one odd thing.
Did he try the heat gun/ice pack on the third unit?

Your bike was sitting there. This didnt seem to be factored in according to ur post?

Was 100 deg. the case temp the 2nd cdi started to fault?
And what max temp does the unit get to with regular riding?

I know youve had varying results with different CDI's.
Regardless..theres a change in resistance because of heat somewhere in the circuit. beit the CDI or something somewhere else and I would love to see kawi get on this.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Please read post #4, especially the part where my tech guy got one to fail with a hair dryer blowing hot air onto the CDI. It's the CDI that goes bad. Engine heat, outside heat, and heat build up from electron flow. All three contribute.

If there were a way to pipe in cooler air or exhaust hot air out, do you think the problem could be kept under control?

[Buffalony]

liquid cooled CDI. lol

[pantera]

Does the tachometer read any different at idle when the CDI is failing?

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by pantera

Does the tachometer read any different at idle when the CDI is failing?

Lift your eyeballs up and read post #4.
BuffaloNY can be your best friend.

[Buffalony]

Link to original page on YouTube.
welcome to the forum.

I never noticed at idle. Im guessing its not as noticable at lower rpms and probably varies based on the amount of signal sent to the tach and temp of what ever is F-ed up.

jeez. I didnt see you mention anything about idling in post 4??

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

Refering to the one odd thing.
Did he try the heat gun/ice pack on the third unit?

Your bike was sitting there. This didnt seem to be factored in according to ur post?

Was 100 deg. the case temp the 2nd cdi started to fault?
And what max temp does the unit get to with regular riding?

I know youve had varying results with different CDI's.
Regardless..theres a change in resistance because of heat somewhere in the circuit. beit the CDI or something somewhere else and I would love to see kawi get on this.

[pantera]

Thank you for the response.What rpm does your bike read at 55mph in 6th gear?I am just trying to see if my bike has any of the symptoms?I have stock gearing so I guess I could only compare to a bike with stock gearing.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

the unit itself cant take the heat?

The guy says the unit was hot so he puts a PC fan in. Then he ends up saying the igniters he is cooling with the fan are still faulty.
Is it heating up because of the engine, the outside temp or it just heats up under normal operation? What if its simply a wire feeding the IC Igniter bad info because that wire itself is heating up? ya know.
though it is in an enclosed location it is alot further from the engine than the wiring.

Maybe its the ignition coil or the peak voltage adapter since it seems to be right against the coolant resv.?

I dont think a pc fan mounted on a bike will provide much cooling for the cdi. Those fans work in a small closed case, on my xeon servers they actually have duct work to direct their air on the cpu. I dont think they'll have any impact other than maybe at a stop.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

Refering to the one odd thing.
Did he try the heat gun/ice pack on the third unit? Yes, and it did not fail, but about a week later I noticed that I was getting the classic indication of needle bounce again.

Your bike was sitting there. This didnt seem to be factored in according to ur post? Yes, the second unit failed upon start up of the cold bike and applying heat to the CDI. The second unit failed and caused the same sputtering in the 7500-9000 range that others have been reporting Even when the bike was hot, cooling the unit with the ice pack EVEN WITH THE REST OF THE BIKE HOT made the problem go away. Temp reading with one of those fancy IR meters on the CDI case was in the 100 degree F point that it would fail.

Was 100 deg. the case temp the 2nd cdi started to fault?Yes
And what max temp does the unit get to with regular riding?No idea, you'd have to take the cowlings off and ride it, but even then it would get cooling air and you wouldn't get a real world indication. That or you have to ride and quick strip off the fairings. In any case, no matter what temp it gets to, failure should not happen. If it were an overall bike design flaw, then every bike should see the failure eventually, but it's only a few bikes that are getting bad CDI units

I know youve had varying results with different CDI's.
Regardless..theres a change in resistance because of heat somewhere in the circuit. beit the CDI or something somewhere else and I would love to see kawi get on this. Kawi dealers have to call Kawi to get authorization on the parts, because Kawi pays for the parts. Kawi is in the business of making money. Kawi's first replacement part when the dealer calls is the CDI, the MOST expensive part of the whole system, and this has been pretty much universally reported. That tells me they KNOW they have issues with faulty CDI units. EVERY other part in the ignition system primary and secondary, added together, does not equal the cost of ONE CDI unit.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

welcome to the forum.

I never noticed at idle. Im guessing its not as noticable at lower rpms and probably varies based on the amount of signal sent to the tach and temp of what ever is F-ed up.

jeez. I didnt see you mention anything about idling in post 4??

Nope, does not happen at idle. The problem, as reported, only shows up in the 7500-9000 RPM range, regardless of gear. A second stand alone tach using the signal wire from the other coil confirms that the bike is idling fine, and the tachs should indicate the same. Oddly enough, sometimes when using the secondary tach when a unit fails indicates that the signal that shares a feed between the factory tach and the coil indicates AFU, but the OTHER coil indicates fine. Doesn't seem like that's possible, but I've seen that twice.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by bob706

If there were a way to pipe in cooler air or exhaust hot air out, do you think the problem could be kept under control?

Nope, with some units, electron flow through the unit alone has been enough to cause problems regardless of ambient temp. If you want to pilot a program to cut 2 holes in your bike to run an air intake and exhaust ducts under the seat, I'm willing to look at the pictures!