IC Ignitor issues & power loss

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by pantera

Thank you for the response.What rpm does your bike read at 55mph in 6th gear?I am just trying to see if my bike has any of the symptoms?I have stock gearing so I guess I could only compare to a bike with stock gearing.

Originally Posted by Banzai

Usually you'll see one of two things that make you go Hmmmmmm

1. While accelerating, tach begins to bounce in any gear between 7500 and 9000 with engine accelerating as expected, then the needle will stabilize and remain linear as expected. SOME have reported that they do in fact get sputtering, and most who do have ruled out jetting issues or any other mod. This bouncing seems to be reported as often on the increas in RPMs as it does on the deceleration side.

or

2. Difference in RPMs between COLD operation and HOT operation for any given gear/speed. Usually, once the bike gets hot, most users report that the bike in HOT condition indicates 1000 RPM MORE than it does COLD to go the same speed. Some have mistakenly reported this as high speed/hot operation clutch slippage.

If you have needle bounce, you should see it, but it usually only show up after you've been riding for a while (if it's relatively mild temps outside) or once the bike gets really hot in stop and go traffic You may or may not get a performance lag/sputter associated with the needle bounce, too. That's been a 50/50 thing.

Otherwise, make a mental note of how many RPMs YOUR bike indicates for 55mph on an early (cooler) morning ride and compare that to an afternoon (hotter) ride. With so many differences in stock tires, and some bikes haveing the 10% speedo error, it's a crap shoot with all of the variables comparing two different bikes. I'll check this afternoon on my bike with an INDICATED 55mph in 6th and post back later. There was too much crazy traffic this morning and I forgot to check my "cold" indications.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Nope, with some units, electron flow through the unit alone has been enough to cause problems regardless of ambient temp. If you want to pilot a program to cut 2 holes in your bike to run an air intake and exhaust ducts under the seat, I'm willing to look at the pictures!

I'll pass on cutting holes in my bike I don't have the performance / mpg issue, just the tach acting up occasionally.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by bob706

I'll pass on cutting holes in my bike I don't have the performance / mpg issue, just the tach acting up occasionally.

Same here, with the third CDI and second tach. It's not a performance issue for me (like it is for some) so I'm leaving it alone for now unless Kawi comes out with more reliable parts.

[dmonaco05]

mine has happened in the lower rpm range, sometimes (very rarely) i will get an idle of 150-200 more than normal, but in the 3000-6000 range i get about 700-1000 rpms off than normal.

[Broom]

would this issue cause the rev limiter to cut in earlier? i've noticed on hot days at the track the rev limiter seems to cut in earlier in the power band than it normally seems to.

i don't have a tach, so i don't really know if i'm having these other issues or not, but the bike cutting out while still in what use to be the powerband is annoying and confusing... especially if you don't know if its all in your head or not.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Broom

would this issue cause the rev limiter to cut in earlier? i've noticed on hot days at the track the rev limiter seems to cut in earlier in the power band than it normally seems to.

i don't have a tach, so i don't really know if i'm having these other issues or not, but the bike cutting out while still in what use to be the powerband is annoying and confusing... especially if you don't know if its all in your head or not.

Yes, extreme case reports of the CDI going bad say that the bike will not get to red line as indicated on the factory tach, but that's usually also associated with the sputtering issue in the 7500-9000 range. Sounds like you may have the dreaded disease, too, especially if it's as plain as you indicate.

[Banzai]

@ Pantera:

OK, 90 degree ambient temp, fresh start up this afternoon from the shaded parking garage, about a mile to the highway, and I was indicating 55mph at just a needle over 7000 RPM. My bike has about 4000 miles on it with the GT501 tires. Since I have a GPS verified 10% error, 55 indicated is actually 50mph for me. Take that with a grain of salt, because I was getting needle bounce right at 9K this afternoon shortly after checking that reading. No needle bounce at all this morning, that I recall.

Sorry I didn't get a cold morning indication today. I used to have it written down somewhere, but in any case I'll try that sometime soon (well, as soon as it stops raining it's butt off again).

[Broom]

hmm... might have to buy a back up off ebay in case mine just goes out i guess.

in the mean time i'm going to leave it alone. next time it seems like its hitting the rev limiter sooner than it should i'll start cutting plastic or something to get more air to it and see if it helps.

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Banzai

If you want to pilot a program to cut 2 holes in your bike to run an air intake and exhaust ducts under the seat, I'm willing to look at the pictures!

+1.


This issue SUCKS!!!!

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Broom

hmm... might have to buy a back up off ebay in case mine just goes out i guess.

I've thought about that myself, but am afraid I might get someone elses problem IC unit.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I've thought about that myself, but am afraid I might get someone elses problem IC unit.

More likely a crashed unit.

[Broom]

yeah, you'd have to be careful to get one from a parted out bike and not just someone selling one.

[Banzai]

Yes. Lots of the parts on ebay right now have way too much dirt on them on parts that just don't get dirty to be anything other than crash parts.

Funny how there's a direct link to "I crashed my low mileage bike today, and insurance totaled it out, but I'm gonna fix it" threads about the 250, and (once reality sinks in about replacement parts) how many parts come onto ebay the following week!

[Broom]

nothing wrong with buying crashed parts if you get the right ones

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Broom

nothing wrong with buying crashed parts if you get the right ones

Isn't that always the issue, though? I'd love to get my hands on a (no cost) CDI that was proven failing and take it apart so that I can access the internals and hook some old school test equipment to it and really see what it's doing.

[Alex]

I put an entry for this up in the wiki. Those with more background on the issue please take a peek and edit as necessary if I missed some key points.

[randomwalk101]

We need to somehow send it to Kawasaki so they can acknowledge and do something about it....because I think right now, they prob think they made a perfect 250R

[Alex]

Kawasaki seems to be already well aware of the issue, based on Banzai's discussion with the service managers and all of the replacements that they've footed the bill for. There are people in every organization like this whose job is nothing but tracking the warranty payouts going to dealers; they're aware.

The reason there is no mass announcement of this or a NHTSA safety recall for it is because the former would be too expensive (thousands of owners coming in for a replacement when their bike was likely just fine or they didn't notice the issue), and the latter because it really isn't a safety issue on the level of a brake failure or frame collapse, etc. Forums like this do their part to publicize the issue, and that's helping in and of itself.

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Alex

The reason there is no mass announcement of this or a NHTSA safety recall for it is because the former would be too expensive (thousands of owners coming in for a replacement when their bike was likely just fine or they didn't notice the issue), and the latter because it really isn't a safety issue on the level of a brake failure or frame collapse, etc. Forums like this do their part to publicize the issue, and that's helping in and of itself.

There would have to be some kind of test they could develop to determine if one is good or not though right?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

There would have to be some kind of test they could develop to determine if one is good or not though right?

Not necessarily. If the NHTSA determined that a sufficient quantity are bad, likely to go bad, or are outright a safety hazard and Kawi can't lock it down to a certain VIN range, they could mandate a complete recall/replacement regardless if there are some out there that are good. They do things like that all the time with cars and trucks. Besides, it becomes a liability issue for the manufacturer if they don't do all of them or a broader range of them than mandated, so they often cover ALL plus any parts that are on the shelf or VINs outside the target that have had replacement or repair work on the affected component.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

There would have to be some kind of test they could develop to determine if one is good or not though right?

Perhaps, but intermittent electrical faults are just about the worst kinds of problems to track down. Anything that happens "sometimes", rather than "always" or "never" is always going to be a pain in the ass. If it costs Kawi $200 in parts/labor to change out every one on each bike they've sold, much of the profit (if any) on every single unit has just evaporated. Not going to happen unless a federal agency tells them it's a safety issue and mandates a recall. Any of us can send in emails/letters to the NHTSA to recommend just that if we feel that this is such a situation, that's how some recalls get started in the first place.

[Buffalony]

what about the BBB?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

what about the BBB?

Useless. They only provide information to consumers on voluntary participant businesses.

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Useless. They only provide information to consumers on voluntary participant businesses.

Huh?
https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/getstarted.aspx

[Banzai]

Useless.

Yes, they accept complaints FROM anyone ABOUT anyone and anything, but unless the business that you are complaining about voluntary participates, the BBB is a paper tiger. That, and no matter what, the buisness doesn't really have to care what the BBB says overall, as the BBB has no legal standing other than a voluntary intermediary between the consumer and the business. They have no enforcement powers at all.

In any case, you would have to provide sufficient technical information about YOUR case to ensure that Kawi (assuming they participate, which is doubtful, but you local dealer may) would do ANYTHING other than refer you to your local service center to repeat the cycle. Never mind that there would have to be sufficient numbers of reports to even get Kawi to notice and spend any more money than they already have (and rest assured, they DO know about the problem).......and that means NHTSA visibility......and to get that you'd have to contact them and get them to buy off on the issue meeting their 'safety recall' criteria, something which is already done by law (dealers/manufacturers in America have to report to the NHTSA what they're fixing under warranty and how often, and every so often Washington takes a large spike in complaints/repairs seriously and orders the company to do an investigation and/or a recall and/or a product upgrade).

At the end of the day, what the BBB reports about a business, participatory or not, is the number of complaints filed and the number of complaints resolved, and they develop a reporting score that's basically 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' that consumers can use to judge the 'worth' of doing business with that place.

Your time, your effort, you decide.

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Useless.

Yes, they accept complaints FROM anyone ABOUT anyone and anything, but unless the business that you are complaining about voluntary participates, the BBB is a paper tiger. That, and no matter what, the buisness doesn't really have to care what the BBB says overall, as the BBB has no legal standing other than a voluntary intermediary between the consumer and the business. They have no enforcement powers at all.

In any case, you would have to provide sufficient technical information about YOUR case to ensure that Kawi (assuming they participate, which is doubtful, but you local dealer may) would do ANYTHING other than refer you to your local service center to repeat the cycle. Never mind that there would have to be sufficient numbers of reports to even get them to notice and spend any more money than they already have.......and that means NHTSA visibility......and to get that you'd have to contact them and get them to buy off on the issue meeting their 'safety recall' criteria, something which is already done by law (dealers/manufacturers in America have to report to the NHTSA what they're fixing under warranty and how often, and every so often Washington takes a large spike in complaints/repairs seriously and orders the company to do an investigation and/or a recall and/or a product upgrade).

At the end of the day, what the BBB reports about a business, participatory or not, is the number of complaints filed and the number of complaints resolved, and they develop a reporting score that's basically 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' that consumers can use to judge the 'worth' of doing business with that place.

Your time, your effort, you decide.

or maybe "OUR time an effort"

[unowned]

im pretty sure i have this problem as well...my ninja has over 10500 km on it...at 110 km/hr, it registers above 8k rpm (my ninja is completely stocked and unmodified)...though i dont know how it was before because i'm not the first owner...

Works fine and pulls as it should however...im not too concerned about it bu definitely an issue kawasaki should look into.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

or maybe "OUR time an effort"

I agree. As long as everyone having this problem goes to their dealer/service center and gets it addressed under warranty. The BBB is a waste of time, and the NHTSA only listens to DATA, which is primarily collected through dealerships/service centers!

I'm on my third CDI and second tach, all courtesy of an extended warranty, so I've done my part getting the issue through to Kawi and the dealerships in my area, as both have helped me with this issue. With the third CDI I only have needle bounce at 9K, hot or cold, with no power loss or bad gas mileage (thankfully). I'm leaving my bike alone for now and just going to ride the crap out of it until/unless it craps out altogether/Kawi comes out with a fix/someone markets a replacement unit that is more reliable.

Unless everyone with this problem goes to the dealer and gets something done under warranty, which is the proper way to begin addressing this issue, there won't be enough data to force anything. Funny how Kawi, when having to send parts, opts for the CDI first. That's the most expensive part of the entire system. They know about the problem, just that there's not enough customer complaint (yet???) to make enough of a difference to them or anyone else.

[ankh26]

So has anyone else had problems the RPM not being correct?
On my 250, when I first ride, I can get 35 mph at 4000 RPM
after about 2 to 3 minutes I can get no more then 30 MPH at 4000 RPM
I only have 300 miles on the bike and of course the dealer and Kawasaki are useless.

any idea's???

[Alex]

Manny - take a look at post #4 in this same thread, one of the symptoms of this is that the RPM on the tach reads differently (higher) after the bike gets warm. Most people are noticing it being about 1000 rpms too high at highway speed, but seems like 500 RPM difference at 35 mph would be right around the same ballpark.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ankh26

So has anyone else had problems the RPM not being correct?
On my 250, when I first ride, I can get 35 mph at 4000 RPM
after about 2 to 3 minutes I can get no more then 30 MPH at 4000 RPM
I only have 300 miles on the bike and of course the dealer and Kawasaki are useless.

any idea's???

Welcome to the board. And welcome to the "Kawi spec'd crappy electronics in the CDI" club. Seriously, take it to the dealer and make them call Kawi on it if you're still under warranty. Kawi knows all about the problem.

The real question for you is for you to figure out if you have a performance issue related to your indication. Some seem to, some don't.

[ankh26]

I do not notice any performance issue, hence I am still breaking it in, I want so bad to open the bike up and see what it can do, I called the kawi dealer and he does not want to see the bike until I have at least 600 miles on it, I compared my bike with my son's he has the same bike and he is running fine, 4000 rpm gets him 35 mph on a steady basis... So as far as performance it's hard to tell might I be getting a false reading, I am tempted to ignore the problem, wait until it's broken in get a jet kit installed and go from there, by the way how have you broken in the bike did you open her up or did you take it easy?

[kkim]

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Break-in

[Alex]

Hi Manny -

Welcome to the forum. There are a number of threads re: break-in already on the site; the one you're in right now is to discuss the ignitor issue.

Here's a link to the wiki break-in article, and there are links to a few more relevant threads from within that article.

[Buffalony]

wew. this thread almost went south..lol

What exactly does the cdi do? I know it sends info to the tach, but what else?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

wew. this thread almost went south..lol

What exactly does the cdi do? I know it sends info to the tach, but what else?

It works just like the timing computer in your car. It takes an input from the crank position sensor and judges timing. That's why it's tied into the tach. It sends the signals to the coils to trigger the spark, and it needs to count RPMs so that it can advance or retard timing appropriately.

[Buffalony]

I'm getting pretty sure it does more retarding.lol

[Banzai]

Safe travels on your trip and good luck. I did a 600 mile weekend about a month ago and didn't have any problems with my bike other than the indication issue.

[ankh26]

Ok so I know I have the cdi issue with my bike, I am wondering if I should still go ahead and install a jet kit and maybe a slip on exhaust, or should I try to get the cdi issue fixed
first. Then get the mods done for the bike. or should I mod it first then get the problem fixed if it can be fixed at all seeing how some of you cannot get the issue resolved.

[kkim]

talk to your dealer first an see how receptive they are to the faulty CDI issue. It really doesn't matter which you do first, but some dealers (wrongly) will blame anything that goes wrong with the bike to mods they see you've made. To avoid that possible hassle, see if the CDI resolution will be a quick one or if you'll be like a salmon swimming upstream to have it fixed, then decide on the jetting/exhaust mods.