Broke the shift rod on a lowside help?

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Not quite....that shaft is for the clutch basket.

What happens when you pull the clutch lever? That shaft gets loaded axially as the clutch springs get pressed to release the plates.

I wouldn't run it. The lower half is now taking all of the axial pressure from the clutch springs. It's doing twice the work...and if it goes, you're going to lock up your transmission and the rear tire.

so what would the best way to repair this? I found a place locally that has a crankcase ready to buy for $90 and a transmission if i need it for $40

[daverdfw]

here are the parts, I asked the seller about that crack.gouge on the right piece, he said it was just a gouge, I assume since I would use a sealant it wouldnt be an issue?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331937661630...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[RacinNinja]

I wouldn't buy a case that had a gouge that large in it. If it's not cracked now, the gouge will be a weak point for a crack to start.

I'm anal retentive when it comes to my machines. It's either done 100% perfect or it's not done. Take my advice for what you will!

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

I wouldn't buy a case that had a gouge that large in it. If it's not cracked now, the gouge will be a weak point for a crack to start.

I'm anal retentive when it comes to my machines. It's either done 100% perfect or it's not done. Take my advice for what you will!

makes sense. I can find another case set cheaper anyway

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

makes sense. I can find another case set cheaper anyway

A matched pair is the right path to go.

In the mean time, look for other damage inside the cases and gears.

Having it go into gear without the engine running typically requires moving the output shaft back and forth anyway.

I also looked at several parts fiches and from what I can see, that is the only bearing stay on that shaft. There is another one in the fiche but it's for the output shaft.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please....because if that's the only stay, it definitely shouldn't be run.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

right, I have seen entire lower crankcases go pretty cheaply. Would this be something I could be better off replacing just that upper part of the case? Is that something I could do fairly easily? I basically have the motor ready to drop out of the frame. minus the stubborn sprocket nut that wont even budge with my impact wrench.

I have replaced just one half of the case in the past, FJ1200, and it worked out fine. My guess is the machining process has only gotten better since then and everything should line up pretty well. As far as ease of the job? These engines are at the simple end of the spectrum compared to most bike engines. Judging how fast you jumped into replacing the shift lever I think an engine tare down wouldn't be that tough for you. Pay attention to detail, there is't anything on these that needs to be forced together, everything falls into place, The cam's and timing chain are the hardest part. So take your time and see how it goes.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I have replaced just one half of the case in the past, FJ1200, and it worked out fine. My guess is the machining process has only gotten better since then and everything should line up pretty well. As far as ease of the job? These engines are at the simple end of the spectrum compared to most bike engines. Judging how fast you jumped into replacing the shift lever I think an engine tare down wouldn't be that tough for you. Pay attention to detail, there is't anything on these that needs to be forced together, everything falls into place, The cam's and timing chain are the hardest part. So take your time and see how it goes.

thanks, I definitely don't want to run it this way. so my options are 2

1. new motor $500
2. new case, so I know the bearings have to be pressed in, would I be able to get away with just a new top part where I broke it?

for example http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-Nin...hSoUHE&vxp=mtr

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

thanks, I definitely don't want to run it this way. so my options are 2

1. new motor $500
2. new case, so I know the bearings have to be pressed in, would I be able to get away with just a new top part where I broke it?

for example http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-Nin...hSoUHE&vxp=mtr

Yes that's what you would buy but your bike is an 08 or newer right? Thats for an 07 or older. The bearings are already on the shafts, nothing needs to be pressed. Lift them out of the old cases and set them in the new cases.

[RacinNinja]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-KAWASAK...3D142065329903

[Racer x]

Very easy to replace the case. Definitely don't just replace part of it. Double check the timing chain and do not unbolt the rods from the crank. You can just pull the head and cylinders . Then pull the crank assemble all together.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Very easy to replace the case. Definitely don't just replace part of it. Double check the timing chain and do not unbolt the rods from the crank. You can just pull the head and cylinders . Then pull the crank assemble all together.

so when you say part of it, what do you mean exactly? I though you had to replace to bearings because they are different sizes based on the case and all of that crap.

[Racer x]

Well the bearings are sized and you should plastiguage the crank bearings. When you pull your case apart you will see blue paint marks on the case and bearing edge. Maybe brown but probubly blue. When you get the new case hopefully it will have blue paint marks. That would indicate all the bearings are the first size and you will probubly be OK. But using plastiguage to check the clearance. How many miles is the broken engine?

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Well the bearings are sized and you should plastiguage the crank bearings. When you pull your case apart you will see blue paint marks on the case and bearing edge. Maybe brown but probubly blue. When you get the new case hopefully it will have blue paint marks. That would indicate all the bearings are the first size and you will probubly be OK. But using plastiguage to check the clearance. How many miles is the broken engine?

3400 before I started track days this year. and have done 6 track days. so cant be more than 4000 total

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-KAWASAK...3D142065329903

Thats a good joice and it still has the bearing shell in it.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

3400 before I started track days this year. and have done 6 track days. so cant be more than 4000 total

So the bearing serface should be good as new. Keep the bearings and crank together and don't mix anything up.

[daverdfw]

Ok. I'll probably be starting to take it apart this week. Basically take the head off. Take the piston heads off. But keep the connecting rods attached to the crank and remove as 1 unit. Keep note of where the bearings are and keep with the same component when I get the case from eBay.

Do I have that all correct ? Should I get a new head gasket or would I be able to reuse this one

[Racer x]

Yes you got it
The rod bolts are a one time use thing and it will save you money keeping them. As for the gaskets. You should get new gasket and stuff.
I use old gaskets sometimes . I clean up the old ones then scrub them with a light scotch bright careful not to bend them. Then coat both sides with copper spray. A couple nice even coats and let it dry.
It works but I am not saying you should do it. I'm just cheap and take engines apart often.

Remember to clean everything and then clean it again. Use lots of oil when reassembling the moving parts.
I use Honda bond on the case half. I spread it on very thin. Use an acid brush to put on a thin layer. I also use a little on my finger and kinda rub the case half to make sure there is no oil or any reason the Honda bond won't stick.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Yes you got it
The rod bolts are a one time use thing and it will save you money keeping them. As for the gaskets. You should get new gasket and stuff.
I use old gaskets sometimes . I clean up the old ones then scrub them with a light scotch bright careful not to bend them. Then coat both sides with copper spray. A couple nice even coats and let it dry.
It works but I am not saying you should do it. I'm just cheap and take engines apart often.

Remember to clean everything and then clean it again. Use lots of oil when reassembling the moving parts.
I use Honda bond on the case half. I spread it on very thin. Use an acid brush to put on a thin layer. I also use a little on my finger and kinda rub the case half to make sure there is no oil or any reason the Honda bond won't stick.

well looks like I am done for a few days, I gotta get a flywheel puller.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Yes you got it
The rod bolts are a one time use thing and it will save you money keeping them. As for the gaskets. You should get new gasket and stuff.
I use old gaskets sometimes . I clean up the old ones then scrub them with a light scotch bright careful not to bend them. Then coat both sides with copper spray. A couple nice even coats and let it dry.
It works but I am not saying you should do it. I'm just cheap and take engines apart often.

Remember to clean everything and then clean it again. Use lots of oil when reassembling the moving parts.
I use Honda bond on the case half. I spread it on very thin. Use an acid brush to put on a thin layer. I also use a little on my finger and kinda rub the case half to make sure there is no oil or any reason the Honda bond won't stick.

Just a thought, he's going to run into problem compressing the rings on the reassembly part. Do you think it would be possible to leave the pistons in the cylinders with the rods attached and just remove the piston block as an assembly?

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Just a thought, he's going to run into problem compressing the rings on the reassembly part. Do you think it would be possible to leave the pistons in the cylinders with the rods attached and just remove the piston block as an assembly?

I thought the bearing are pressed in? How can I keep the old bearings with the crank?

[Racer x]

The bearings are split shells.
You don't need a flywheel puller. It is a bit fiddley but the pipes will come out around the flywheel. The flywheel is very tight. And it is a real bitch to remove.
Also pay attention to the bolts in the case. Don't mix them up. Two of them have copper seals as washers . Also there are some hiding inside the oil filter and under the starter. So don't use much force to split the case. It pops apart pretty easy.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Just a thought, he's going to run into problem compressing the rings on the reassembly part. Do you think it would be possible to leave the pistons in the cylinders with the rods attached and just remove the piston block as an assembly?

Getting the block back on the Pistons is easy. There is a chamfer at the bottom of the block. It is a process or twisting and rocking as you tuck the rings into the block.
One thing I did not think about is the c clips that hold the wrist pins. They should not be reused.

Can you run forged Pistons ? It's another 300 bucks but 12.5 to one Pistons are nice.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Getting the block back on the Pistons is easy. There is a chamfer at the bottom of the block. It is a process or twisting and rocking as you tuck the rings into the block.
One thing I did not think about is the c clips that hold the wrist pins. They should not be reused.

Can you run forged Pistons ? It's another 300 bucks but 12.5 to one Pistons are nice.

Oh ya, forgot he has stock bores, i'm used to 4mm over stuff.

[Racer x]

The over bore makes installing the pistons a real frustrating chore. But with the stock bore it is easy. You still need to line up the rings and be very careful about the oil ring. The lower one can slip out and get bent.
Don't want to forget the base gasket either. That is somthing I have done.

DAVID, I will assume you have the factory service manual. It's a good idea to read the whole chapter on assembly

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

The over bore makes installing the pistons a real frustrating chore. But with the stock bore it is easy. You still need to line up the rings and be very careful about the oil ring. The lower one can slip out and get bent.
Don't want to forget the base gasket either. That is somthing I have done.

DAVID, I will assume you have the factory service manual. It's a good idea to read the whole chapter on assembly

so I have been reading the FSM, seems straight forward, let me see if i have this right

I ordered that case on ebay, you guys said it looked like it still has the bearings. So I wont have to worry about incorrect size bearings for that case.

I remove the top end, after I remove the head I pull the pistons off, replacing the snap rings. Then I remove the crank with the rods still attached.

Once I remove the 20 case bolts and split the case. Since I will be getting that matched case, I should literally just transplant all of my internals over to the new case.


When I spoke with my local mechanic, he was going to rebuild it, but wanted all new bearings and stuff because of tolerances. That was going to cost me $900 or so to do that.

This is a track bike, I ride 1 track day per month right now. So my main concern is just not starving the motor of oil or screwing it up so badly that I grenade the motor and hurt myself.

Do I have this about right?

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

so I have been reading the FSM, seems straight forward, let me see if i have this right

I ordered that case on ebay, you guys said it looked like it still has the bearings. So I wont have to worry about incorrect size bearings for that case.

I remove the top end, after I remove the head I pull the pistons off, replacing the snap rings. Then I remove the crank with the rods still attached.

Once I remove the 20 case bolts and split the case. Since I will be getting that matched case, I should literally just transplant all of my internals over to the new case.


When I spoke with my local mechanic, he was going to rebuild it, but wanted all new bearings and stuff because of tolerances. That was going to cost me $900 or so to do that.

This is a track bike, I ride 1 track day per month right now. So my main concern is just not starving the motor of oil or screwing it up so badly that I grenade the motor and hurt myself.

Do I have this about right?

Pretty much. Except, you should still plastigauge the bearings in the new case against your crankshaft to make sure clearances are proper. It probably wouldn't hurt to lightly polish your crankshaft too since it will be different bearings.

I would take pics of the bearing shells in the case and post them here so people who know what they're looking at can tell you if they're any good or not. Or have someone local to you that knows have a look see before reassembly.

Other than those above items, it's going to be plug and play!

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Pretty much. Except, you should still plastigauge the bearings in the new case against your crankshaft to make sure clearances are proper. It probably wouldn't hurt to lightly polish your crankshaft too since it will be different bearings.

I would take pics of the bearing shells in the case and post them here so people who know what they're looking at can tell you if they're any good or not. Or have someone local to you that knows have a look see before reassembly.

Other than those above items, it's going to be plug and play!

so I will need to purchase some plastigauge, if the tolerences are off, then I would need to replace the bearings? which plastigauge should I get? there are several sizes apparently.

by polish the crankshaft, do you mean doing like a wet sand with high grit sandpaper on the parts the rest inside the bearings?

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

so I will need to purchase some plastigauge, if the tolerences are off, then I would need to replace the bearings? which plastigauge should I get? there are several sizes apparently.

by polish the crankshaft, do you mean doing like a wet sand with high grit sandpaper on the parts the rest inside the bearings?

You'll need PL-X Plastigage. For measurements of 0.018mm - 0.045mm. (0.0007 in. - 0.0017 in.) Yes, if the tolerances are off you'll need a set of bearings. However, that's unlikely but still possible. Don't forget to measure the side play of the crank in the cases too!! 0.002-0.008 inches.

Typically done with some emery cloth, leaving light score marks on the crank and getting rid of any wear or high spots. Kind of like a brake rotor, just a light scuffing to provide a new mating surface. The emery cloth comes in skinny strips that fit very well on the crank surface.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

You'll need PL-X Plastigage. For measurements of 0.018mm - 0.045mm. (0.0007 in. - 0.0017 in.) Yes, if the tolerances are off you'll need a set of bearings. However, that's unlikely but still possible. Don't forget to measure the side play of the crank in the cases too!! 0.002-0.008 inches.

Typically done with some emery cloth, leaving light score marks on the crank and getting rid of any wear or high spots. Kind of like a brake rotor, just a light scuffing to provide a new mating surface. The emery cloth comes in skinny strips that fit very well on the crank surface.

ok perfect, I will get some on order. So it sounds like as long as everything is within tolerance, I should be able to run this motor for a long time without and adverse effects?

jesus that plastigauge is not cheap http://www.jhps.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...Yes&Quantity=1

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

ok perfect, I will get some on order. So it sounds like as long as everything is within tolerance, I should be able to run this motor for a long time without and adverse effects?

jesus that plastigauge is not cheap http://www.jhps.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...Yes&Quantity=1

That's not cheap because you're buying a whole case!!!

Each box contains 100 gauges (10 packs of 10 gauges). Each contains measurement gauge and instructions.

Get it from your local auto parts store where they sell it by individual packets.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

That's not cheap because you're buying a whole case!!!



Get it from your local auto parts store where they sell it by individual packets.

ah ok, I wasnt sure if its something a local store would carry. You guys are awesome, I can't think everyone enough for walking me through this.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

ah ok, I wasnt sure if its something a local store would carry. You guys are awesome, I can't think everyone enough for walking me through this.

I would try Napa before O'Reilly's or Auto Zone. Try and find an industrial one that carries lots of parts.

[Racer x]

The bearings are sized to the crank not the case. Look for the paint marks. If they match then you are good for sure and plastiguage will be to check the clearance. If it is within spec you are good. But use the original bearings that are in your broken case. They match the crank. If the tolerance is incorrect you should have the crank work done by a machinest.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

The bearings are sized to the crank not the case. Look for the paint marks. If they match then you are good for sure and plastiguage will be to check the clearance. If it is within spec you are good. But use the original bearings that are in your broken case. They match the crank. If the tolerance is incorrect you should have the crank work done by a machinest.

ok thanks everyone. I am sure I am just over thinking it now . Once I get it open I am sure it will make a lot more sense. So I can take that oil pipe off without pulling the flywheel? It looks like there is a big gear in the way.

[Racer x]

I need to look at te pipe arrangement. But I think you can take the pipe loose and just work around the pipe. Then when you go back together you just have to lay the pipe in place befor you set the crankshaft in. I'll look tonight. It is all simple the second time around.

[cuong-nutz]

I want to say you have to remove the flywheel to get to the pipe. I forgot once and tried to force the pipe in which didn't work out so well for me.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

ok perfect, I will get some on order. So it sounds like as long as everything is within tolerance, I should be able to run this motor for a long time without and adverse effects?

jesus that plastigauge is not cheap http://www.jhps.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...Yes&Quantity=1

Go to the auto parts store and get some green plastigage, it's a couple bucks.
I could get into the whole bearing thing but its complicated. There's mark stamped on the crank and cases that decipher which bearings you should use.
Get the ebay cases and yours apart, keep everything separate and lets see what engine has what in it. There will be a paint color code on the side of the bearing that determines its size. As far as new ones are concerned lets take a look at the used ones out of your engine. Typically these engines have very few miles on them and the old bearings are still useable.Remember these engines are designed to last well over 100,000 miles (don't quote me, that's a guess) so the 3000 on yours is just "broken in".

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Go to the auto parts store and get some green plastigage, it's a couple bucks.
I could get into the whole bearing thing but its complicated. There's mark stamped on the crank and cases that decipher which bearings you should use.
Get the ebay cases and yours apart, keep everything separate and lets see what engine has what in it. There will be a paint color code on the side of the bearing that determines its size. As far as new ones are concerned lets take a look at the used ones out of your engine. Typically these engines have very few miles on them and the old bearings are still useable.Remember these engines are designed to last well over 100,000 miles (don't quote me, that's a guess) so the 3000 on yours is just "broken in".

Green? That's too thick and outside the clearance in the manual. Did I miss something? Green is good for 0.001-0.003. Ninja crank is 0.0006-0.0015 or about half what the green is rated for.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Green? That's too thick and outside the clearance in the manual. Did I miss something? Green is good for 0.001-0.003. Ninja crank is 0.0006-0.0015 or about half what the green is rated for.

Oops, ya. I did the con rods last night didn't look at the crank spec.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Oops, ya. I did the con rods last night didn't look at the crank spec.

Ok! Thanks for confirming.

Although, re-reading the manual the service limit is 0.0031 so I guess the green would work as a go no go if the X isn't available?