Broke the shift rod on a lowside help?

[daverdfw]

ok I installed the plastigage , here are the results

[cuong-nutz]

Looks great from what I can see. I can't remember the clearance for the counterbalance but I think I went off the same as the crank.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Looks great from what I can see. I can't remember the clearance for the counterbalance but I think I went off the same as the crank.

Balancer Shaft Bearing Insert/Journal Clearance Standard: 0.020 ∼ 0.044 mm (0.0008 ∼ 0.0017 in.)
Service Limit: 0.08 mm (0.0031 in.)

[cuong-nutz]

Looks near the upper clearance but it is well under the service limit.

I guess this is where the red plastigage would be more helpful.

My gut says it's okay to run but ocd me says check with the red stuff.

[daverdfw]

here is a better pic of the balancer measurement

[daverdfw]

to me it looks closer to the .001 than the .0015

[cuong-nutz]

I'd run it as-is.

[Racer x]

Ya it's in the ball park . I would do the whole test again to be sure but it looks like it's in the spec spread just fine.
It would be nice to measure the crank and bearings with micrometers. But the plastiguage clearance tells the tail.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Ya it's in the ball park . I would do the whole test again to be sure but it looks like it's in the spec spread just fine.
It would be nice to measure the crank and bearings with micrometers. But the plastiguage clearance tells the tail.

ok thanks, when you guys put the hondabond on, do you have the transmission already installed? I did what the FSM said and installed the drum in N, and it seems I can change gears fine. Everything feels smooth when I spin it.

[Racer x]

Yes first I clean the case edge with brake clean. Then use Honda bond and wipe the case edge with te Honda bond. But I wipe it clean using Honda bond. This sorta leaves a film or shows any areas that the Honda bond won't stick to.

Then I get everything ready for the case to go together. I start with the top upside down and lay in the crank and balance shaft and trans. Make sure the forks are all lined up with the drum and any pipes under the flywheel or clutch are in place. Then I put a thin layer of Honda bond on the bottom case. I use an acid brush and paint it on. Then allow it to skin up for a couple muinites. Make sure you have all the bolts ready and clean and lubed . Plus know which ones have the seal washers. I don't want to start figuring out anything at this point.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Yes first I clean the case edge with brake clean. Then use Honda bond and wipe the case edge with te Honda bond. But I wipe it clean using Honda bond. This sorta leaves a film or shows any areas that the Honda bond won't stick to.

Then I get everything ready for the case to go together. I start with the top upside down and lay in the crank and balance shaft and trans. Make sure the forks are all lined up with the drum and any pipes under the flywheel or clutch are in place. Then I put a thin layer of Honda bond on the bottom case. I use an acid brush and paint it on. Then allow it to skin up for a couple muinites. Make sure you have all the bolts ready and clean and lubed . Plus know which ones have the seal washers. I don't want to start figuring out anything at this point.

that makes sense, thanks! I guess I will start on that next, kidna weird this is the part I am most worried about. I am sure it will run, its the long term viability that frightens me! Oh well worst case its a salvage motor. You guys have been amazing with all of the help, I cant think you guys enough.

[Racer x]

There is no reason there will be any problems. Personally I have really enjoyed watching your build. I'm sorry you broke the case. But this has been fun for me. All my engines are together and ready to rock.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

There is no reason there will be any problems. Personally I have really enjoyed watching your build. I'm sorry you broke the case. But this has been fun for me. All my engines are together and ready to rock.

well I just got very lucky, I had the crankcase back together, was torquing one of the smaller bolts to 14 ft-lb with my ****** harbor freight torque wrench, and the bolt made a sound like it broke in the case FML! Pull it all apart and just like 2 threads broke off the bolt. Will have to clean everything and reassemble but could be worse. Also going to go buy a real torque wrench instead of this POS one.

[Racer x]

Personally I use two types. A tprque O meter from snap on for the small bolts. and a torque wrench with a small dial. Not the big barrel spring type. But the type with a small adjustment knob on the side.
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/5699562284.html

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Personally I use two types. A tprque O meter from snap on for the small bolts. and a torque wrench with a small dial. Not the big barrel spring type. But the type with a small adjustment knob on the side.
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/5699562284.html

yeah I was thinking a digital one because you could see the actual number instead of blindly waiting for a click

[Racer x]

I like to watch the torque build up. I don't like the click. But the click is fine. Just try to get the bolt to tighten and the wrench to go click in one sweeping motion.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I like to watch the torque build up. I don't like the click. But the click is fine. Just try to get the bolt to tighten and the wrench to go click in one sweeping motion.

well I ordered a better wrench from Amazon, if anything I see why you wanna put the hondabond RT on super thin, in some spots I saw where it was thicker than others. So a learning experience. Will try again tomorrow after I get the better wrench.

[daverdfw]

could someone confirm something for me regarding torque on the crankcase? the service manual says for the 6mm bolts on the bottom of the case to tighten to

Torque - Crankcase Bolts ( 8, L = 90):
First: 10 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 89 in·lb) Final: 24 N·m (2.4 kgf·m, 18 ft·lb)
Crankcase Bolts ( 8, L = 73):
First: 10 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 89 in·lb) Final: 19 N·m (1.9 kgf·m, 14 ft·lb)

but then it says for the 6mm bolts on TOP to use

Torque - Crankcase Bolts ( 6): 12 N·m (1.2 kgf·m, 104 in·lb)

then this website says
http://faq.ninja250.org/torque/ex250j/

on all 6mm bolts to do 12nm

I am confused. thanks!


looks like I found a chart in the manual that say all 6mm bolts are 104 in-lb

[cuong-nutz]

Follow what the manual says.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Follow what the manual says.

yeah I am, was caught off guard by how they had it formatted. was weird.

[RacinNinja]

Something you will run in to is galling from dissimilar metals. You've got steel or stainless steel bolts going into aluminum threads that already have corrosion in them. I typically run a tap through every hole to clean out corrosion and then use just a tiny bit of old school Never Seez on the threads to keep things lubed. Not sure if this formula is still available as it has lots of copper suspended in the mix and the can is as old as I am or older.

It keeps things from sticking and breaking. But again, I'm anal retentive and have many tools at my disposal. YMMV.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

could someone confirm something for me regarding torque on the crankcase? the service manual says for the 6mm bolts on the bottom of the case to tighten to

Torque - Crankcase Bolts ( 8, L = 90):
First: 10 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 89 in·lb) Final: 24 N·m (2.4 kgf·m, 18 ft·lb)
Crankcase Bolts ( 8, L = 73):
First: 10 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 89 in·lb) Final: 19 N·m (1.9 kgf·m, 14 ft·lb)

but then it says for the 6mm bolts on TOP to use

Torque - Crankcase Bolts ( 6): 12 N·m (1.2 kgf·m, 104 in·lb)

then this website says
http://faq.ninja250.org/torque/ex250j/


on all 6mm bolts to do 12nm

I am confused. thanks!


looks like I found a chart in the manual that say all 6mm bolts are 104 in-lb

I've been going 10nm om all 6mm bolts as 12 and even 11 seem to pull the threads out of the aluminum sometimes. Better off not getting to that point

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I've been going 10nm om all 6mm bolts as 12 and even 11 seem to pull the threads out of the aluminum sometimes. Better off not getting to that point

seems like a good idea, those bolts are pretty thin.

[daverdfw]

when I put the crank and balancer back in before I seal the case. I am making sure I align the pain marks, so even if it turns it will still line up correctly, thats the correct way to do that right?

[daverdfw]

also just discovered I had the first rev of the FSM, found a copy of the 5th revision. so info should be a little more accurate.

[Racer x]

I also only go to 10 on the small bolts. And also the cam cover bolts. I'm in and out with them often and figure 10 is enough. Plus my little torque o meter only goes to 10 so I just turn till the dial hits ten.

[TP Ninja]

I'd check with the dealer. I believe you could reattach the broken-off piece around that bearing shell with epoxy since it's not bearing much of a load. I would consider getting a new upper crankcase half then. But it's probably easier and less expensive to pick up a used engine instead. I bet parts and labor to replace that upper case and the shift shaft will be $1000 easy.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by TP Ninja

I'd check with the dealer. I believe you could reattach the broken-off piece around that bearing shell with epoxy since it's not bearing much of a load. I would consider getting a new upper crankcase half then. But it's probably easier and less expensive to pick up a used engine instead. I bet parts and labor to replace that upper case and the shift shaft will be $1000 easy.

No. There is significant side loading on the piece that broke from the clutch springs.

Also, he's already bought new cases and is assembling them as we speak.

[daverdfw]

here is current progress, I have crankcase sealed. working on putting the flywheel back on, then pistons, head, cams

this flywheel is a PITA with that damn key.

[daverdfw]

when installing the flywheel bolt, the manual says 65 ft lb. I am holding the flywheel with a strap wrench. I am kinda worried about trying to torque that bolt down that much. what have you guys done with this bolt?

[daverdfw]

so I followed the FSM on the piston oil rings , can someone doublecheck this for me? the red circles are each oil ring opening.

[daverdfw]

holy crap how do you get the cylinder back over the piston rings? I tried sliding it down, and i kinda got them started but wouldnt go through.

[Racer x]

First photo has the top ring gaps a little close together but the bottom oil rings look great.

Ok as for the block part. Go have a buiscut with butter and relax. This is the only part that is troubling. And just to be sure you did put the timing chain on correct?

Now rotate the engine until one piston is up and one is down. Put rags around the bottoms of the Pistons to protect them. Don't forget the base gasket.

The block has a little chamfer on it. Set the block on the piston and use your fingernail to squeeze the ring into the chamfer. It's best to push the back of the ring into the piston and then push each open end of the ring together. You should also squirt oil all over the Pistons rings and block.
Use a slight twist and rock motion to get the piston and rings in. Once you have the top rins in go for the oil ring and be more careful about the last one. It can be deceiving and slip out. Once one side is down rotate the engine a little and bring the other side up. Same song and dance but with less room to work.

DO NOT get frustrated. If you feel any frustration realize this is not as easy and it seems and walk away. Or try hard break a ring and wait for more rings to come in the mail. That is just how it goes.

[daverdfw]

so should the top 2 rings gaps be like 120 degrees opposite?

also , yeah I have the base gasket on, the timing chain is on the bottom gear and pulled through the motor.

also for the flywheel bolt, I have an impact would that get it tight enough?

[Racer x]

Yes to 120 deg separation on top rings
And yes to tighten the flywheel with an impact. Tight as heck is about right. Remember the oil pipes before the flywheel

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Yes to 120 deg separation on top rings
And yes to tighten the flywheel with an impact. Tight as heck is about right. Remember the oil pipes before the flywheel

got it!

I got the cylinder head on, when I moved the crank and move the pistons, I hear no metal or other bad sounds, and the cylinder walls look fine.

yes the pipe is already installed under the flywheel.

[Racer x]

You will be making noise in no time now!!

[daverdfw]

ok one step closer, just put the flywheel at 2T and installed the camshafts

The paint marks are flush with the top of the head. I counted pins and have 36 just like the FSM shows.

here is a pic. One question, the camshaft on the left side wont seat completly because the cam lobes are on the lifters. IS this an issue or will it push down when I put the caps on? Thanks!

[daverdfw]

ok! So I put the camshaft covers on, and cam chain tensioner, when i rotate the engine using the flywheel bolt on the 2nd revolution the 2T timing mark and both camshaft marks line up!

No weird noise, or grinding. so I assume I have everything all done in time?!

[cuong-nutz]

Sounds about right. Make sure you don't lose the spark plug seals on the valve cover.