Why MSF is soooo worth the money (like you needed proof)

[Gurk]

I told a couple of you about these back to back close call moments I had the other day. It's extremely beginner stuff since I'm... well.. a beginner.. but I realized how glad I should be that I took MSF. It's basic stuff you can ask and learn but having being told about these situations and practiced them helped me save my motorcycle, and possibly, me.

I was nearing an intersection about 40mph as the light turned yellow. It was an intersection with left turn arrows so there wasn't a risk of being hit or running into a car turning left. Therefore I should've increased speed since I could've easily made it across before red. I decided to stop.

In a car, this would be fine. On a motorcycle, not so much, apparently. I was told in MSF that using both brakes shortens the stopping distance and I should always practice using both. I did. But since I didn't have enough distance to stop, I think I panicked and squeezed them a bit too hard. My rear tire locked. I started drifting and the rear tire was all over the place. Left, right, left, right. Thankfully, I kept very calm. I relaxed my body to avoid sudden movements that would upset the bike further more. I let the bike do its thing, pretty much. While drifting, I also remembered I shouldn't let go of the rear break. Which probably saved me big time. If I let go of the brake, rear might have gripped and I would end up in a high side and ultimately, in the middle of the intersection. So I rode it till I stopped on time, before the white line! I must have drifted a good 3-4 cars length. Then I proceeded to have a heart attack

Second one is simple. I assume it happens to a lot of riders daily. We're going around 40 mph again second to the right most lane. The guy infront of me... just... STOPS?! The traffic is going.. He just friggin stopped for a reason I can't come up with. I was following him at a pretty safe distance but I still approached him fairly fast after that abrupt stop. So immediately, I remembered. Focus on your escape route and not the back of the friggin car. I have been checking my right mirror constantly and was sure it was safe and no cars coming from behind. I swerved quickly and avoided the car by a few feet. Thinking about it, maybe I wasn't at THAT safe of a distance following him. But it was just enough. Live and learn. Further back next time!

So yeah. I know it looks very noobie stuff but hey. A lot of us on this forum are just starting out. There's now 2 things I don't regret AT ALL. Taking the MSF course. Buying a 250.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gurk

I think I panicked and squeezed them a bit too hard. My rear tire locked. I started drifting and the rear tire was all over the place. Left, right, left, right. Thankfully, I kept very calm. I relaxed my body to avoid sudden movements that would upset the bike further more. I let the bike do its thing, pretty much. While drifting, I also remembered I shouldn't let go of the rear break. Which probably saved me big time. If I let go of the brake, rear might have gripped and I would end up in a high side and ultimately, in the middle of the intersection. So I rode it till I stopped on time, before the white line! I must have drifted a good 3-4 cars length. Then I proceeded to have a heart attack

Good on you for successfully keeping the bike upright, and yourself out of trouble. Over-use of the rear brake is a very common issue for new riders. Probably because it's so natural for drivers to use a foot when they brake. Once the rear is locked up and a rider is committed to the stop, keeping it locked is exactly what MSF teaches to try and avoid an unnecessary tipover. But - what you've also just now learned is how easy it is to lock up the rear brake when you are going more than parking lot speeds. For best stopping performance, the rider needs to heavily weight their focus to the front brake, and use only enough rear brake to make sure if doesn't lock. If you lock the rear, directional control is lost, and stopping distances go up as you spend some concentration keeping the bike upright instead of continuing to add additional braking pressure with the front brake. In a nutshell, much more front, much less rear.

/moved to Riding Skills subforum

[Murtasma]

Originally Posted by Gurk

I was nearing an intersection about 40mph as the light turned yellow. It was an intersection with left turn arrows so there wasn't a risk of being hit or running into a car turning left. Therefore I should've increased speed since I could've easily made it across before red. I decided to stop.

Careful! Don't become complacent with cars. Just because they have a Left Turn arrow dosen't mean they won't go. I've seen morons run red lights at a complete stop before there are also people who just keep inching up at lights (never know whats going on in their head but one thing is for sure they aren't paying attention).

Originally Posted by Gurk

Focus on your escape route and not the back of the friggin car. I have been checking my right mirror constantly and was sure it was safe and no cars coming from behind. I swerved quickly and avoided the car by a few feet. Thinking about it, maybe I wasn't at THAT safe of a distance following him. But it was just enough. Live and learn. Further back next time!

Good work always be aware of your surroundings.

BTW I recommend using both brakes all the time unless you are riding in dirt. When an emergency happens you will react by instict. You want to develop good braking habbits so when something scary comes up you don't lock up the rear and you remember to use both brakes with the proper amount of force. Go find a empty parking lot and use the spaces as guides and see how much you can reduce your braking distance just over a few minutes. It really helps!

Stay safe!

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Alex

Good on you for successfully keeping the bike upright, and yourself out of trouble. Over-use of the rear brake is a very common issue for new riders. Probably because it's so natural for drivers to use a foot when they brake. Once the rear is locked up and a rider is committed to the stop, keeping it locked is exactly what MSF teaches to try and avoid an unnecessary tipover. But - what you've also just now learned is how easy it is to lock up the rear brake when you are going more than parking lot speeds. For best stopping performance, the rider needs to heavily weight their focus to the front brake, and use only enough rear brake to make sure if doesn't lock. If you lock the rear, directional control is lost, and stopping distances go up as you spend some concentration keeping the bike upright instead of continuing to add additional braking pressure with the front brake. In a nutshell, much more front, much less rear.

/moved to Riding Skills subforum

That makes a lot of sense. It wasn't made super clear that rear brake should be used at slower speeds. Or maybe I didn't pick it up during course. But yeah still glad I picked up to keep on the rear brake if it locks part

To be honest, I've been riding bicycles all my life. I feel more inclined to use the front brake. I'm pretty much forcing myself to use the rear right now. But not at right speeds apparently! I did however try to put my seatbelt on a few times. Force of habit from driving

Thanks for the tip! I guess it's best to take significant speed off with front before applying the rear. I'll be practicing this today's ride.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gurk

It wasn't made super clear that rear brake should be used at slower speeds.

...snip...

I guess it's best to take significant speed off with front before applying the rear. I'll be practicing this today's ride.

Hi Gurk! The rear brake can (and some would say should) be used at very high speeds as well. It's just that when at higher speeds, it's surprising about how little force is required on the pedal before the rear wheel locks. When braking hard, so much of the weight of the bike/rider is thrown to the front wheel, that there is very little force necessary to lock the lightened rear, which is why it takes a light and careful touch if you use it at all. This doesn't come through when first learning at parking lot speeds < 30 mph, where there is so much less weight transfer, and the braking forces aren't that high.

I wasn't suggesting that you should first use the front, then wait a certain period until the bike slows, then add the rear. Both can be used simultaneously, it's just they don't take equal force. Squeeze the front smoothly, progressively, and ever harder as the weight transfers to the front and you can get even more traction/performance out of the front. While doing so, if you are braking with the rear, make sure not to lock it. That's about it.

Practicing emergency stops reasonably frequently is a good way to keep skills sharp. Finding enough space to start them at 50+ mph is also more helpful in modeling how things would really feel in an actual event; practicing only at parking lot speeds may not provide all of the necessary feedback.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Alex

Hi Gurk! The rear brake can (and some would say should) be used at very high speeds as well. It's just that when at higher speeds, it's surprising about how little force is required on the pedal before the rear wheel locks. When braking hard, so much of the weight of the bike/rider is thrown to the front wheel, that there is very little force necessary to lock the lightened rear, which is why it takes a light and careful touch if you use it at all. This doesn't come through when first learning at parking lot speeds < 30 mph, where there is so much less weight transfer, and the braking forces aren't that high.

I wasn't suggesting that you should first use the front, then wait a certain period until the bike slows, then add the rear. Both can be used simultaneously, it's just they don't take equal force. Squeeze the front smoothly, progressively, and ever harder as the weight transfers to the front and you can get even more traction/performance out of the front. While doing so, if you are braking with the rear, make sure not to lock it. That's about it.

Practicing emergency stops reasonably frequently is a good way to keep skills sharp. Finding enough space to start them at 50+ mph is also more helpful in modeling how things would really feel in an actual event; practicing only at parking lot speeds may not provide all of the necessary feedback.

Ahh this makes sense. I can picture how and why the rear brake locks right now. I wasn't really visualizing the fact that weight shifts to the front during a stop. I know a great/safe spot to practice this. And I will do so!

[CynicalC]

I locked up the rear brake on almost every quick stop while doing the msf. I think it was just touchy. Gave me good practice though.

[EsrTek]

I practiced rear only emergency stops, now I really have push hard to lock the rear tire.
40+ stops I found that scooting back in seat or even sitting on pass seat helped reduce the weight transfer, but this is something I did naturally and only thought about it afterwards when reading others advice here.
I even let go of the brakes a few times during a skid to see what/how happens. (Nothing, but I wasn't at speeds to really cause a tank slapper either).

My suggestion is to practice using the rear brake during normal rides, when you don't need to stop, but just slow a bit...
Be very light on the touch and feel how the bike reacts. If you slow down at all, but not much it won't take very much more pressure to be at right spot.
Another thing I seem to do, again didn't notice this until I really thought about my actions, anyway I use my big toe (almost solely) to rear brake, never use the ball of your foot.

[NinjaBlake]

Originally Posted by Gurk

That makes a lot of sense. It wasn't made super clear that rear brake should be used at slower speeds. Or maybe I didn't pick it up during course. But yeah still glad I picked up to keep on the rear brake if it locks part

To be honest, I've been riding bicycles all my life. I feel more inclined to use the front brake. I'm pretty much forcing myself to use the rear right now. But not at right speeds apparently! I did however try to put my seatbelt on a few times. Force of habit from driving

Thanks for the tip! I guess it's best to take significant speed off with front before applying the rear. I'll be practicing this today's ride.

That's funny! I sometimes feel the same way when I first leave on my bike. I feel as if I'm missing something! (a seatbelt)
Although a seatbelt is even more hazardous if it were to exist on a motorcycle.

[shiroganeshinobi]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I'm glad OP found value in it, but it wasn't worth $300 to me.

They took our money and taught us how to pass the tests and that was literally it.. Total scam... Also, taught us alot of things that were contrary to what is considered "the norm" in motorcycle safety, people like David Hough, etc. As i'm reading his book, all i'm thinking is "wtf were they teaching me"?

Of course anything is better than that ridiculous DMV test.

Going by price and location, I take it you did MSF through Apex? My experience with them was positive so I'm guessing it's all depends on what instructors you get.

[Honko]

Originally Posted by shiroganeshinobi

Going by price and location, I take it you did MSF through Apex? My experience with them was positive so I'm guessing it's all depends on what instructors you get.

I did it through Apex as well, they were awesome.