Help Me Create A Better Motorcycle Instruction Program

[CycleCam303]

Hi All,

I could really use everyone's help. I need participants for the below survey. It asks questions about any kind of motorcycle instruction that you have received and or programs you have been involved with. This is including the motorcycle safety courses.

Even if you haven't taken any formal motorcycle training courses there is a question for you too.

I'm compiling all of this for a special project. Some of you know that I've been doing instruction for a short while. Ranging from motorcycle safety classes to track day instruction. Even in the year and change I've been doing this, I see so many areas where the ball is getting dropped. I also believe that there is a huge gap that needs to be filled for a specific group of motorcyclists. The folks that have learned to ride but haven't gone to the track or haven't experienced any high performance situations.

Not everyone wants to be a racer. Not everyone wants to be or can consistently do track days. People want to become faster, safer, better riders. I could be wrong, but I feel like there is a large neglected group of riders. I want to create something for them. What class is available for them?

This is a motorcycle coaching and instructing questionnaire. The information is being collected to create better riding schools and more effective coaching. This is for all levels of riders from disciplines of dirt, street, and track. Clicking this survey link will be your contribution to making riders safer, faster, and more skilled. Thank you for your time.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RMR3P73

[MrAtom]

Sure thing

[adouglas]

Isn't that what the MSF ARC is for?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Isn't that what the MSF ARC is for?

Yes sir, some of the material and exercises are in direct response to the "in between" riders concerns. They know how to ride, nor plan to be track junkies. They just want to be safer, smoother and up their game... which normally equals going a bit faster. The range exercises help, but let's just say... they are less than real world experiences. This is why some N track day schools work very well, real speed, real curves, other traffic and you leave with real experience that can be applied to your everyday riding. If you don't feel that way, then you haven't had "real" coaching to address that aspect.

@CycleCam303, maybe we should have a phone chat. Riders have been saying there is a hole in rider skills training in this area for years and I feel where you are coming from. Sadly, you're in CA... one of the worst places to start a venture such as this due to the liabilities. I have researched this area for years and have many ideas, most are cost prohibitive but some are viable and others need further vetting. I bet we could have a lengthy chat. Also, you survey is missing a question. "What are your riding goals?"

Best of luck with your project sir!

[Alex]

/moved to riding skills

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Sure thing

Thank you to those who filled it out. Appreciate it.

@csmith12 - Do'h, yea I missed a good question for sure. That's what I get for slapping this together on the fly finishing at midnight.

[masashi02a]

Lurker here;

One thing that I think is never emphasized in MSF intro courses is downshifting. I think it may be because speeds never get above 20mph or so to utilize downshifting and/or the bikes are too junkie to downshift while moving. After getting my license and getting out on the road, i realized how important downshifting is to safely operate a motorcycle

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Isn't that what the MSF ARC is for?

This isn't a facetious question at all, but how many people have you heard even take the ARC? I can count on one hand and everyone was from this forum.

Here is what happened when the motorcycle safety foundation left and lee park's total control took over and established the MTC here in California. There were about 600 MSF instructors in all of California, after total control set in, there were 168 left. Why? Because all instructors had to pay $375 and redo all of their certifications under total control. So a lot of people said screw it and moved on.

This put a whole bunch of pressure on just managing the basic course for lee parks. The school companies have access to offer the other advanced courses that Lee Parks has. There is just little motivation to. That means you need instructors willing to take the extra schooling to teach it...and that means they have to actually pass the tests, if you are familiar with the average MSF instructor you would know why I'm rolling my eyes. But why offer it when the current basic class more than pays the bills? From the business perspective it doesn't make sense. At least right now because no one is really offering a more comprehensive program.

Sorry for the business politics.

The target audience I see includes riders like yourself.

Not to pick on you, but recently csmith posted a video of you riding on the track. I watched that video twice and made an assessment after reading what you wrote about fear of leaning the bike over. Coincidentally, I helped our team captain for a 24 hour mini bike race to overcome a similar fear that you expressed.

24 hours on a mini bike, we used an xr100 with street tires and 16 inch wheels, gave me a whole lot of time to give Drew some advice. He had an hour to practice each piece. I ramped it up every session he went out. By the end of the race he shaved 8 seconds off his first stint lap times and was dragging both knees every lap.

Drew had a street crash happen with his wife riding on the back cruising the Snake. (Rnickey mouse youtube vids road) He hit gravel and insta lowsided, according to him that is. Ever since then, he has been trying to use mini bike racing to get his confidence and skills back up.

I coached him on a lot of areas that he was leaving massive time on the table. He rode... very similar to your riding in the video. First, I had him work on visual cues to tighten and correct his lines. Then we worked on braking later. I literally told him when he thought he should brake to count one one thousand two one thousand and then brake. Within 30 minutes he shaved off 3 seconds a lap. He was braking waaaay too early.

The final step was getting him to increase his corner entry speed. He got hit from behind and has a decent slide during a late night stint. After the crash he was all pissed off, but because it's a friggin mini bike, he was physically fine. Normally, I'd never suggest this, but being that his aggression was so low to begin with, I played off the situation. I told him to go out there and catch the mofo that hit you. He wasn't that much faster. With the crash out of the way and him seeing red, he was attempting to actual chase down the guy. So much so that he started dragging knee and getting higher lean angles because of the more speed he was entering the corners with. He never did catch that guy by the way. But he learned a lot about how to go faster and become comfortable with a higher pace.

The whole point is that there is a lot that can be learned on slower, less capable bikes. Mini bikes provide an abundance of confidence. The low risk is a major factor in that. When I rode the xr100 in that race, I was purposely riding that bike to the very edge and crossed it often. I'd tuck the front while on a knee and just barely save it. I would dive underneath people while giving it a little rear brake and get the rear to slide in a bit while using my knee slider as a pivot point. It's a mini bike, I'm laughing in my helmet while riding like a goon. It's a good time. And I learn because of that crazy confidence I have on one.

A month later I had a huge front tuck on my Daytona track bike. Spending so much time on that little xr helped me relax and just stand the bike up a bit when the front started chattering away. Two wheels are two wheels. The difference is that to get the big bike to move and dance you have to be going scary fast. I'll be the first one to admit that it takes some major cajones to get a modern 600 with race tires anywhere close to that.

I'm really thinking of using mini bikes on go kart tracks as an advanced learning tool. A lot of that fear you have of leaning the bike, or what happens if I lean to far, would be answered by spending some time with someone who could evaluate your skills and coach you in an environment where you're extremely comfortable.

There will be a learning curve, but I'm telling you, it helps on the big bike.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

I'm really thinking of using mini bikes on go kart tracks as an advanced learning tool.

Completely viable option. Buy 15 or so xr's, pay the cart track a group rate instead of renting the track as a whole. $100 per day, insurance is murder though and you need to get a safety crew on site with as little as hassle that comes with that. Then there is THE HARDEST PART... you can't do it alone, so you will need other equal coaches to help.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by masashi02a

Lurker here;

One thing that I think is never emphasized in MSF intro courses is downshifting. I think it may be because speeds never get above 20mph or so to utilize downshifting and/or the bikes are too junkie to downshift while moving. After getting my license and getting out on the road, i realized how important downshifting is to safely operate a motorcycle

When I teach the course, I do emphasize smooth downshifting during a few of the drills. But yes, downshifting is not as prominent in the range drills as some of the other input skills unless there is a rider concern that draws the attention of the ridercoach.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by masashi02a

Lurker here;

One thing that I think is never emphasized in MSF intro courses is downshifting. I think it may be because speeds never get above 20mph or so to utilize downshifting and/or the bikes are too junkie to downshift while moving. After getting my license and getting out on the road, i realized how important downshifting is to safely operate a motorcycle

This is coming from a coach's perspective. Often times the most frustrating thing about the basic MSF course is that the students are not nearly aggressive enough to warrant speeds fast enough to emulate slowing and downshifting. I teach the road rider 2.0 class with Z2 Track Days where students bring their own motorcycles. It's difficult doing the braking and downshifting exercises in the smaller riding area we have available for the exact reason. It's accentuated due to most street bikes have really tall gearing. Like 1st gear tops out at 45 mph.

You make a good point. It is an important skill. Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's almost like a mandatory skill. The survey that I'm taking is confirming that you aren't alone in wanting to know other riding techniques similar to downshifting while braking.

If we were going over braking together, I wouldn't be surprised how you would be shocked at how much I could teach you.

This is why I want to create a program. For people like you. There really isn't anything out there to cover this stuff. Yes, you could read a lot of books. But having someone there to coach you through an exercise can provide so much better feed back.

[tfkrocks]

RE: ARC

I wanted to take the MSF ARC but it wasn't readily available so I never took it. That's also something to take into consideration; while it may fulfill a need, it also needs to be accessible. Obviously in my general location it wasn't a priority to begin with because I had problems finding the course even when searching with a generous radius to my location. That's saying something when I'm in the very populous SF Bay Area with an abundance of riders. Now that MSF is no longer the contracted provider for motorcycle safety in California, the likelihood of finding the ARC is probably even lower. I'm willing to bet it's essentially nonexistent

[Jono]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

I'm really thinking of using mini bikes on go kart tracks as an advanced learning tool. A lot of that fear you have of leaning the bike, or what happens if I lean to far, would be answered by spending some time with someone who could evaluate your skills and coach you in an environment where you're extremely comfortable.

There will be a learning curve, but I'm telling you, it helps on the big bike.

I would love for there to be a class like this. But I wouldn't want to go all the way to California to do it. Really, I wish there was a California Supermoto School outside of California. Like near Birmingham, Al or somewhere in the south.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by csmith12

@CycleCam303, maybe we should have a phone chat. Riders have been saying there is a hole in rider skills training in this area for years and I feel where you are coming from. Sadly, you're in CA... one of the worst places to start a venture such as this due to the liabilities. I have researched this area for years and have many ideas, most are cost prohibitive but some are viable and others need further vetting. I bet we could have a lengthy chat. Also, you survey is missing a question. "What are your riding goals?"

Best of luck with your project sir!

Chris you see exactly what I've been recently thinking. There are two schools that I frequent locally that I've been watching like a hawk. One of the operators is an actual paramedic. Not only that but the school is run on his property. It's a dirt camp. He has been doing very well. So well that he is working part time and increasing his classes taught. Business model is basically like corner spin school, the colin edwards boot camp, rich oliver's mystery school. He just drops the price a bit to increase number of attendees and provides similar training at a discounted price. Because he is doing dirt track/TT style training he created a class for his bikes and makes a quick easy profit renting "race" bikes for local flat track events. And you're friends with me on facebook so you know how much he has helped me out this past year.

The other guy does almost the same thing just with the occasional supermoto school and hondas.

Yes we should talk. I have a guy talking to me about plans right now. I have a handful of ideas but not a solid business plan set. I'll let you check out the data I'm getting once it's compiled. It's interesting to say the least. Mostly, it's what you've been thinking, with a couple of surprises.

I have a cart track extremely local to me. Not only that but he is hurting for attendees. A regular school would do wonders. He is the owner and operator and controls the go karters with an iron fist. LOL they think motorcycles at the track is normal. He would be willing to work with me. Also, he is a dealer for Kayo Mini GP. Remember those giant mini sport bike things that @Misti was racing? They have better ergonomics than say an NSR50. They are a bit pricey at $2700. It's running a ttr 125 motor. Disc brakes and the suspension can be tweaked. Josh Herrin trained on one for a bit.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

........This is a motorcycle coaching and instructing questionnaire. The information is being collected to create better riding schools and more effective coaching. This is for all levels of riders from disciplines of dirt, street, and track. Clicking this survey link will be your contribution to making riders safer, faster, and more skilled. Thank you for your time.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RMR3P73

Done !!!

Thank you for doing this.
In my experience, riders that seriously want to become proficient, achieve it one way or the other.

The motivation of the trainee is more critical than the good intentions of the trainer or the quality of the course.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

This isn't a facetious question at all, but how many people have you heard even take the ARC? I can count on one hand and everyone was from this forum.

I've taken every MSF course they offer including the ARC

my one big BIG request is that you find a way to get the speed up to something approaching real street speeds for some period of time near the end of the course.

the biggest short coming I see, is that gauging speed when approaching a turn or stop is one of the biggest reasons a new rider target fixes and wads the bike up. The Basic rider course teaches you to look, lean, roll, go... but this is from a slow speed.

coming into a corner hot, trying to down shift and brake and lean from 60mph is much different then from 20.

last part of the course should be up to 4th gear and 40mph... approach a turn, brake and down shift and go through... perhaps cones at various points so people know they should be off the throttle, on the brake, below 20, they should be leaning now and off the brakes, and on the throttle.

this sounds like a track day, but it's the one part of the Basic course I feel is lacking. It's something every new rider does and needs to do well right from the start.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

This isn't a facetious question at all, but how many people have you heard even take the ARC? I can count on one hand and everyone was from this forum.

Really good point. The one time I considered it, the class was called off due to lack of interest.

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

The target audience I see includes riders like yourself.

I have to disagree. Not because I don't think I'd benefit from it (I love training) but because if I've got time and money to spend on skills development, I'm hitting the track.

[Alex]

Free bump for more views.

[Omarel]

This is great. I hope you do this. I copy and pasted something I wrote I think will help. Things that should be covered:

Slow and sharp turns
Take offs
Taking off on a sharp turn
Stopping and taking off on top of an incline hill!
Riding on the highway.
Riding with a passenger. And how that affects turns.
Reacting to several common emergencies that can arise from cars such as cars making a left in front of you.
Learning to predict common hazards and how to avoid it in advance.
Cover the main reasons of crashes and how to avoid it.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Omarel

........... Cover the main reasons of crashes and how to avoid it.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62576

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64488

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66293

[CycleCam303]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate everyone who has responded and taken the survey.

For those interested, the answers strongly confirm that there is a market for an advanced riding course.

The truth is that it will be very difficult to implement without a strong backing. Read - a lot of $$$$ nothing sustainable will get off the ground.

[csmith12]

Cameron, move a state over... the game totally changes.

[Koala]

I'm a little confused here. I bought Lee Park's book Total Control a couple months ago. My goal is to learn as much as possible by the time I have my bike next year, and my uncle out in San Diego recommended him. Seems he took the class years ago. In the book he talks about how he noticed a need for something in between the MSF ARC and the different track schools. Hence the reason he developed the Total Control clinics, to grab that group of riders that wanted that "in the middle" experience. The ones who didn't want the crazy speeds of the track school but high performance street riding techniques. He teaches these clinics throughout the year and across the country. Both intermediate (you are required to have at least 3,000 miles of street riding experience) and advanced clinics.

If I'm understanding the OP correctly, is this not exactly what you are saying you see a need for? Clinics that cover the middle ground and teach what you are talking about exist - according to Lee Parks book and website. They are called Total Control.

I hope you don't mind me asking for clarification, because I found this thread searching to see if anybody here had taken the course.

[csmith12]

Koala, the issue is not with the instructional material, it's the setting. After as much coaching I have done, NOTHING and I mean nothing is better than being "in the sh*t". Pardon my french here please. But even the Total Control classes are in a parking lot and hence the gap, no real curves and such. Don't get me wrong, you can learn a lot with the right direction in a parking lot, but it's just NOT the same.

EDIT: Please don't let my words sway you from taking the course. It has it's place for those who aren't quite ready for the track but want a little something more from their dollar for training. There have been riders drag a knee while doing the course and left with a huge smile.

[Koala]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Koala, the issue is not with the instructional material, it's the setting. After as much coaching I have done, NOTHING and I mean nothing is better than being "in the sh*t". Pardon my french here please. But even the Total Control classes are in a parking lot and hence the gap, no real curves and such. Don't get me wrong, you can learn a lot with the right direction in a parking lot, but it's just NOT the same.

I understand what you are saying about needing real world vs parking lot training and experience. I think that was the point of Parks putting Total Control into book form to go along with the classes. So the dedicated rider could study the techniques as needed and then go practice them "in the sh*t" as you so eloquently put it

I'm all for any good instruction out there. What works for some may not work for others and we all have to find out what fits us as riders specifically.

It would be nice to have something close by in my area when the time comes....not so sure I would want to ride around on my future ninjette in the Cleveland area by myself, and that is where the Total Control class is. I don't even like driving around there by myself.

[csmith12]

I have seen rider's reaction to the CSS drill called the "3 line drill/finding lines", you see the corner from at least 3 different perspectives. For me, it's a love hate relationship with the drill, but the end result is a better rider. Simply put, you aint getting that in a parking lot. It's one of the best drills a rider can do to challenge their visual perspective view of the world. It works wonders too...

[csmith12]

fyi... imho

Commented this in a pm to a fellow ninjette member. There are basically 3 breakthroughs you will make as a rider.

1. When you finally understand how to steer the bike enough to make it from the N group to the I group.
2. When you finally understand how to steer the bike enough to make it from the I group to the A group.
3. Once the barriers have been broken though, things will start to make sense.

Steering and visual skills are soooooo strongly linked at the hip.

For full disclosure, I am leaving out major parts of riding (:\), but what is under your helmet is governing your pace. Just go ahead and accept that now.

[csmith12]

And... I totally hate what I just wrote above because it sounds like "generic" advice. Please challenge me to give the proper amount of detail, so it makes sense.

[Koala]

Originally Posted by csmith12

fyi... imho

Commented this in a pm to a fellow ninjette member. There are basically 3 breakthroughs you will make as a rider.

1. When you finally understand how to steer the bike enough to make it from the N group to the I group.
2. When you finally understand how to steer the bike enough to make it from the I group to the A group.
3. Once the barrier has been broken though, things will start to make sense.

Steering and visual skills are so strongly linked at the hip.

For full disclosure, I am leaving out major parts of riding (:\), but what is under your helmet is governing your pace. Just go ahead and accept that now.

I guess it's a good thing that I have a brain and I sure do like to use it! Now, would you purty please elaborate on your advice? I'm a sponge, I soak up all knowledge available

[cadd]

I enjoyed the ARC course more than the other two courses I took (BRC and BRC2). I knew how to operate a bike prior to the BRC, so I felt the BRC was just too slow for my liking. After a long hiatus off the bike, I took the BRC2 course as a refresher. That was a frustrating course because it was also too slow for my liking. Two people dropped their bikes in the BRC2 course (Gixxer and VStrom). Another reason I didn't have a fun time at the BRC2 course was because the class was small and there was only one RiderCoach. He had to set up all the cones on his own. Tons of idling time.

The ARC course, was different. The students were more competent riders and there were two RiderCoaches. Things were moving along at a good pace.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Koala

I'm a little confused here........
If I'm understanding the OP correctly, is this not exactly what you are saying you see a need for?.......

Riding well is a lifelong endeavor, it is a challenge.
Learning to ride well is not a linear process, which can have gaps.
There are many branches and sub-branches, depending on what you want to achieve and how naturally talented you are at it.

The basic principles are more or less universal, and a limited portion of those is what any basic riding course tries to teach.
All have limitations of time, space, personal coaching and settings, as @csmith12 very well explained above.

The MSF Basic Rider Course trains a person from basic controls and balance to merely being able to control a bike on a public road, which is a great achievement for any two-day class.

IMHO, all the intermediate and advanced riding courses are fundamentally a continuation of more basic principles and skills, not covered in a basic course.
If you pass all those three courses in a row, you will be able to better control a bike on a public road, but no much more.
What you learn from those courses is limited, as well as what you learn solely from books, articles, forums, etc.

In order to become a proficient rider in any of the many branches, you need more than motivation, you need to be really passionate.
As your passion is unlimited, unlimited will be what you can learn.

You will have to devour as many miles as pages of good riding books, you will ask many questions to experienced riders and to yourself, you will test their advice as well as your assumptions, you will fall more than once, you will understand how your machine works and its limits and yours.

Any serious rider that has many years of experience will tell you that there is no ride that does not bring new knowledge and discoveries, no matter how many miles have been traveled.
They may be adventurer riders, or racers, or street commuters or dirt fleas, but the statement will be the same: the more you ride and the more your ask, teach and research, the better and safer you become.

[SLOWn60]

@Motofool
Dirt fleas!