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Old February 15th, 2011, 08:49 PM   #1
rwheelz
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Tuning the carbs with FP jet kit; Is it possible I nailed it the first try?

I figured I would post some results and ask some questions. A month or so ago I modded my wife's ninjette, after reading every thread I could find on here. It is a 2009 model and I added the FP jet kit, K&N pod filter and Tyga full exhaust. I also removed the KLEEN system. FINALLY the weather warmed up and the snow melted, and today I got the inaugural run to start the tuning. I have never played with carbs before, so it was all new to me (big thanks to my buddy simon who helped me out, also a carb newb but an engineer). The many DIY threads were invaluable- HUGE THANKS to all of the contributors!!

I used the 110 mains, FP pilot #40, needles on position 2. I live at 3800 ft. I did not adjust the float height because I didn't know what I was doing!

Riding impressions: the bike cold-started as usual and was seemingly unchanged (that is the general theme here). I was following the instructions in the FAQ along with the FP tuning guide. This leads me to question number 1: the FP guide tells you to compare the way the bike runs "cold" vs "warm." But I don't really want to wind the bike out to 13k rpm when it is cold...?

I took it for a ride to test the top end and it pulled hard and was completely smooth. No bogging, no stuttering or hesitation of any sort. Ran it hard to redline in every gear and it felt great. It even pulls to redline in 6th now, it would not do that previously on flat ground (and keep in mind, I haven't even put the side fairings back on yet). I saw an indicated 110mph going down a long hill (CLOSED COURSE, naturally).

So I figure the 110 main is a go. I start testing the mid range 5-7k and it feels great there too- no bogging, no hesitation or stutter, just smooth and consistent. So I move to the low end, and I *think* it is a little rich under 4k or so, it seems to be a little sluggish compared to the rest of the powerband. It was also this way when the bike was stock, so I am not sure if I should be expecting much change there...?

I proceeded to test it in every way I could think of- WOT at every possible rpm in each gear, part throttle acceleration, on-and-off the throttle, taking off from a standstill, cruising at a constant rpm... never so much as a hiccup. It felt the same after flogging it for 20 minutes as it did when I first headed out.

When I got back, the bike idled perfectly at ~1400. When I blip the throttle it immediately returns to idle, no hanging and no dipping.

Does anyone have suggestions on what to do next? Should I be swapping jets and/or adjusting needle heights to see if there is an appreciable difference one way or another? The bike feels so good that I am reluctant to change anything at all.

Tomorrow I am going to sync the carbs, and put a wideband in the pipe to see how the A/F looks, mostly to see if the low end is rich as I suspect. I wanted to ride it without the wideband first, so I could concentrate on how the bike felt. FP warns that "tuning to an A/F ratio is the biggest scam in the industry." It is the standard in the automotive world, so I am not sure what to make of that statement. I do not have access to an exhaust gas analyzer.

We dyno'd the bike in the fall when it was completely stock (23hp) and plan to do it again in the spring. For now, I would like to finish the tuning and get the plastics back on it, so I can start on the jetting on my 9R!
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Old February 15th, 2011, 11:14 PM   #2
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if the bike is running well enough for you at this point with no problems in the powerband and you're happy with it, I suggest leaving the jetting as is and live with it for a few rides to get a good feel of the improvements that have been made. Once you are sure of what you have, at that point if you feel like tinkering further, identify the areas that you would like improved and tweak the jetting in that area, one step at a time.

There is no "perfect" jetting setup and there can always be changes made to heighten one part while affecting another. In the end, it's about being happy with what you have and enjoying the tuning that's been done. That's where the real fun begins.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 07:46 AM   #3
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Right on! Unfortunately, I don't ride the ninjette much since it is my wife's bike. So, I am trying to get it as close to perfect as I can right up front. I'll see how the a/f looks today, and hopefully when we put it back on the dyno in the spring I can get EGA.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 11:02 AM   #4
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if the wife is happy, you're happy... believe me.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #5
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^^^^^ amen!!!
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Old February 16th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #6
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Hahahaha yeah I just meant I am not sure she would notice any "issues," but I could be wrong!
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Old February 16th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #7
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+1 to what kkim said.

if it feels good and runs good, your probably fine. the only way to tell if your setup can be improved is to try different mains or clip positions. of course all that takes time. but from what it sounds like you got it really close, which should work just fine
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Old February 16th, 2011, 01:01 PM   #8
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Sorry, but I disagree with the whole butt dyno..."if it feels good". Just because it feels good doesn't necessarily mean the bike is running good. I know this because I was the same way until I had it dynoed and found the truth.

Only way you're going to know for sure is to have it dyno'd so you can see the fuel curve.

But I also understand many don't have access to dynos and the closest thing they can rely on is their butt dyno. My suggestion would be to find someone who's running the same product/setup/closest elevation level as you are and ask what they have it set at. And if they had it dyno'd before, or problems they're running into or noticed.

Just my .02


Oh, and FYI - climate changes affects performance too.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #9
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sorry, dynos cost money... great if you have a money tree.

besides, we're not setting up the bike for track... I wouldn't jet the same for street and track, where getting the last once of power matters. for street, better to jet a bit richer to account for a wider variety of condtion variables.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:52 PM   #10
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Has nothing to do with street vs track. It's all about the fuel delivery/curve.

Richer fuel all depends in the climate you live at. In Cali, for example, it's mostly sunny so it doesn't apply.

And for a 250cc bike, every ounce of HP/Fuel delivery counts, track or not.

Just my .02
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #11
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Nemesis- I am in complete agreement. Although I think I have a reasonable sense of "feel," I want to know the bike is tuned optimally so the thing will last forever. My wife loves this bike, and if I tuned it to be too lean and something lets go 500 miles down the road, she will be utterly pissed that I broke her baby!

The wideband sensor does not fit in the bung on the Tyga exhaust. I thought these things were universal, they are on a car. I am waiting to hear back from them to see what fits. I HOPE I can just get a smaller sized sensor and plug it right into my AEM gauge. I think the thread size is a match, but the sensor itself will not fit down into the hole. I really want to tune according to the wideband, before we go back to the dyno in the spring (pretty sure they have EGA, and I KNOW they have wideband a/f).

I did some more riding today, and was convinced that the low end was just too rich. I also think it might benefit from lowering the needles one step. I decided not to go at the needles until I have the A/F readings, to save myself the labor.

I noticed that with very slight throttle blips, the revs were dropping down- I had not noticed this yesterday as I was giving harder blips. I also noticed that the revs only dropped when blipping the throttle after the bike had been sitting idling for a while. I adjusted the mixture screws- they were initially at 2 turns as per the FP instructions, and I turned them in 1/2 turn each to lean it out a bit, and it seems to have helped.

The bike still feels very flat between 3-4k. I guess I need to look at float height when I take it apart next time around. I balanced the carbs with a Morgan Carbtune device. They were almost dead on already.

QUESTIONS:

The carbs get synced at idle, correct? I notice that if I rev the bike up, or hold it at a higher rpm, the carbs are un-synched even though I set them perfectly at idle. Is this normal?

Has anyone else messed with the float height? It is the only part of this process that I see no reference to in the DIY threads.

My current settings are:
110 mains
40 pilots
needles at position 2
1.5 turns out
3800 ft elevation
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:18 PM   #12
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Oh, and the Shogun frame slider bars make it a real PITA to adjust the mixture screws. I suggest tuning the bike THEN installing the sliders.

Another question- does anyone know where I can get a tach signal? At the dyno last time, the guy couldn't find a tach signal so we did not get a torque curve!
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:50 PM   #13
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The "butt dyno" is always important. We don't ride or race on the dyno. We simply use it as the most practical tool available when doing R&D and/or tuning. From the highest level of racing, to simply dialing in a street bike, the data a rider provides is the final adjusting or completion point.

Just one example: On some past projects for American Honda/HRC - I've spent months and hundreds of dyno runs getting several exhaust systems and target A/F maps designed. On the dyno, the criteria was met. On the track, in some cases, the rider no likey... You would swear they must be on glue because "the dyno" said it was perfect. Their feedback may or may not match what the dyno is telling us (whether that be A/F or HP related). But at that level, it's simply all about lap times and providing the rider whatever makes them comfortable to go faster. It's the tuners responsibility to provide that (sometimes regardless of what the tuner thinks).

For a street rider, if there is a reasonable similarity in what they "feel", and data from a past/present set-up that are known to work, then that sounds like a good compromise. And so many times, jetting is all about compromise for the every changing elements of temp, humidity, elevation (and many other factors). Anyway, the point is that input from both tools (rider & dyno) are very important to making everyone happy.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwheelz View Post
Another question- does anyone know where I can get a tach signal? At the dyno last time, the guy couldn't find a tach signal so we did not get a torque curve!
He doesn't have to grab the tach lead off the ECU. He can simply clip on and grab a signal from the spark plug wire. Way easier on this particular bike. Kinda scary that he would not know that...
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Old February 16th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #15
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The "butt dyno" is always important. We don't ride or race on the dyno. We simply use it as the most practical tool available when doing R&D and/or tuning. From the highest level of racing, to simply dialing in a street bike, the data a rider provides is the final adjusting or completion point.

Just one example: On some past projects for American Honda/HRC - I've spent months and hundreds of dyno runs getting several exhaust systems and target A/F maps designed. On the dyno, the criteria was met. On the track, in some cases, the rider no likey... You would swear they must be on glue because "the dyno" said it was perfect. Their feedback may or may not match what the dyno is telling us (whether that be A/F or HP related). But at that level, it's simply all about lap times and providing the rider whatever makes them comfortable to go faster. It's the tuners responsibility to provide that (sometimes regardless of what the tuner thinks).

For a street rider, if there is a reasonable similarity in what they "feel", and data from a past/present set-up that are known to work, then that sounds like a good compromise. And so many times, jetting is all about compromise for the every changing elements of temp, humidity, elevation (and many other factors). Anyway, the point is that input from both tools (rider & dyno) are very important to making everyone happy.
The point I was making is that the butt dyno is very misleading and will vary from rider to rider. Again, what may feel good to a rider may not necessarily be good. When I first started tuning the bike, FP told me if I don't have access to a dyno then you gotta go by the butt dyno but to get a good setup, to see what's actually going on, I need to dyno the bike. I went by butt dyno for months but when I finally got around to dynoing the bike, it revealed I was way too rich in the lowend and at times misfiring. But it felt good on the street. Does that mean it's still good? No.

After I made adjustments the bike ran and felt 10x better!

On the track, I could care less if it's backfiring or what not. So long as it pulls throughout the powerband I'm good.

Another example of butt dyno, you'll see a lot of noobs tackle on aftermarket parts and the expression you often read/hear is, "Oh man, I can feel the power! It's so much smoother." But is it really? Or is it in their heads? Did they just cause the fuel to be leaner or richer by adding the aftermarket parts? 1-2 HP on a 600cc bike...yeah, like you're really gonna notice the difference. C'mon, really? On a 250cc? Maybe...if that.

I'm not saying rely solely on dyno'ng but a good portion of making sure your power/fuel curve is linear and smooth should be achieved through dynoing your bike. Just don't rely too much on the butt dyno is all I'm saying.

Personally, for street riders, everyone should be striving for that linear power curve because you're constantly on & off the gas.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to be helpful.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 08:22 PM   #16
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I can jet my dirt bike several different ways to emphasize what I want at the expense of another part of the power curve.

They are all good.... depending on what the rider is looking for and what part of the powerband it is being set up for. I used to think jetting was a black or white science, like you, but have long ago learned there is a aspect of magic and customization that can occur if you know how to juggle the different aspects of jetting. it's not all about a linear curve as some may want a power delivery that suits their riding style/terrain the best.

If the OP is happy with the way the bike is running and is having no problems with the way the bike runs now, why spend money on a dyno or change jetting that could yield lesser results? There is a point (in street riding) that if you're happy with the changes, live with them until you feel a change is needed.

I would not want my jetting to be on the ragged edge of perfection only to find out temp, humidity and/or altitude has pushed the AF ratio to the lean side of ideal.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 12:42 PM   #17
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He doesn't have to grab the tach lead off the ECU. He can simply clip on and grab a signal from the spark plug wire. Way easier on this particular bike. Kinda scary that he would not know that...
Hmmmm good point. Honestly, it is just some guy who picked up a used dyno (that is mounted in an enclosed trailer) to play with and tune his street and drag bikes, so I think it is pretty new to him. He just does this on the side and works full time elsewhere, so maybe he really doesn't quite know what he is doing. Trust me, when you live in MT you DIY or take what you can get. The local harley shop has a dyno, but would not even take my business/money when I told them I was bringing two Ninja's!

So has ANYONE played with the float height at all?
Is it normal for the carbs to be sync'd at idle but then un-sync'd when you blip the throttle or hold a higher rpm?
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Old February 17th, 2011, 01:04 PM   #18
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An well-known car tuner once told me, stock is best. Why ruin a good thing. And to the average enthusiast who cruise/drive/ride the street, I would have to agree.

With magazines/forums/etc. advertising aftermarket parts, tune this, tune that, gain more HP/TQ, etc. it's no wonder people run into so many problems after they've installed aftermarket parts.

But back on topic, I never said perfection...as if that's even possible. Again, adjust and set your jetting according to your area. Regardless if you have it richer or leaner, or whatever drastic climate changes/altitude will always affect A/F ratio. That's a given. But a simple quarter or half turn of the fuel mixture screw takes what...5 mins? If that.


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So has ANYONE played with the float height at all?
That's one thing I have never played with. And I'm not sure if I want to.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
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An well-known car tuner once told me, stock is best. Why ruin a good thing. And to the average enthusiast who cruise/drive/ride the street, I would have to agree.
The 250R is an exception to that rule. The stock jetting in most cases is terriable. Substantial improvements are had by simply adjusting/changing the Jetting on an otherwise completely stock bike.

Quote:
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With magazines/forums/etc. advertising aftermarket parts, tune this, tune that, gain more HP/TQ, etc. it's no wonder people run into so many problems after they've installed aftermarket parts.
Unless you are addressing a particular issue, that's a very broad generic statement about aftermarket performance parts. Reputable aftermarket companies that have completed thorough R&D programs, documented data, and have active customer service departments, don't have "so many problems". And any questions the customer may have concerning their product, can be adressed with confidence.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #20
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The 250R is an exception to that rule. The stock jetting in most cases is terriable. Substantial improvements are had by simply adjusting/changing the Jetting on an otherwise completely stock bike.
I would have to agree but wouldn't go as far as saying "terrible". There's a reason why they have it tuned at those setting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbryant View Post
Unless you are addressing a particular issue, that's a very broad generic statement about aftermarket performance parts. Reputable aftermarket companies that have completed thorough R&D programs, documented data, and have active customer service departments, don't have "so many problems". And any questions the customer may have concerning their product, can be adressed with confidence.
The point I was trying to make (which I failed) was that you can't expect the most out of the products by just simply buying and installing all the goodies. A good tuning process (no...not by butt dyno alone) will help get you there.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 08:57 AM   #21
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The wideband sensor does not fit in the bung on the Tyga exhaust. I thought these things were universal, they are on a car. I am waiting to hear back from them to see what fits.
I had the same problem UEGO sensor because although the treads are the same size, the hole into the pipe wasn't big enough. I just ground the hole larger with a drill motor and grinding bit. It seems to work without any issues.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 03:07 PM   #22
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Ahhhh good to know. I was afraid I might crack the piping since it is so thin, but I guess if that happens I will take it off and have it welded!

TYGA said the bung is designed for the stock Kawi O2 sensor on FI models. Apparently those are not the same size as standard autmotive oxygen sensors.

It has been too cold here to ride or tune anyway, so I can't really do much yet. I am looking forward to some warm weather to see how the A/F looks.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 06:37 PM   #23
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It does stick in quite far but I didn't want to go through the hassle of getting a taller bung welded on.

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Old March 5th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #24
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Thanks man! I will bore it out. I am not worried about it taking too much space since I don't plan to leave it in place, just tune and remove.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #25
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I used to think jetting was a black or white science, like you, but have long ago learned there is a aspect of magic and customization that can occur if you know how to juggle the different aspects of jetting.
Amen to that from a guy who has spent hundreds of hours playing with my dominator on my dragcar. You would be suprised at how man guys at the strip will swear by there carb set-up. (on the same kind of carb as mine) My set-up is totally different than theres and Ill swear by it just the same. Its more about what works best for the varying conditions than whats best on the day you goto the dyno. Your (or at least, I) should be looking for consistency week to week. Not peak numbers on one day.

As far as hitting the jetting on the first try. Dont count me in that group. had to switch the mains a couple times before I was happy with my butt dyno. Then I took it to a real dyno and found out I was a smidge rich. Stuck with it because it was a warm day when I went to the dyno. When I ride in the cold weather (like now here in Illinois) it runs a tad lean. (looking at the plugs) I feel I have the best set-up for the varying conditiond I ride in.
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Old March 9th, 2011, 07:13 AM   #26
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Hi all, I got access to dyno , but this dyno station is not equip with afr sensor , there is anyway to know is my setup is lean or rich ?
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Old March 11th, 2011, 07:47 PM   #27
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Yep, wideband air-fuel gauge.
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