February 23rd, 2012, 01:57 PM | #1 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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Ecotrons Install Thread
All questions and issues regarding installation of the ecotrons kit should be dealt with in this thread.
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February 23rd, 2012, 03:34 PM | #2 |
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Subscribed.
I put my MAP sensor diaphragm together last night. I probably won't get to try it out until Saturday. |
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February 23rd, 2012, 04:38 PM | #3 |
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got my bike apart and getting ready to install.
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February 23rd, 2012, 07:03 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
The only thing I am worried about is that in all the solutions posted, the fuel still gets into the line, but is blocked from getting to the sensor. The presence of fuel may interfere with the sensor's operation because fuel is harder to move than air. IDK. I was thinking that a more permanent solution would be to get a short piece of brake line and thread one end. Then screw that into a drilled and threaded hole in the TB at the 4 O'clock position. (Using JB-Weld as a thread sealer). That way, you significantly reduce the probability of gas getting into the port. This is especially true for people who mounted upside down.
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February 23rd, 2012, 07:30 PM | #5 | |
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But having my MAP sensor attached right under my gas tank has not failed me yet. but still want to put something in it to, like u said, make sure its not reducing the sensor operation.
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February 23rd, 2012, 07:33 PM | #6 | |
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I tend to try not to make permanent change unless I have to. There is always a solution. |
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February 23rd, 2012, 09:57 PM | #7 |
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Same. Matt thinks it has to do with a timing issue for me because mine is coming from the top. He's got a few ideas for me to test out this weekend. I'll keep you all posted.
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:11 PM | #8 |
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good deal. maybe it will help us upside down guys
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:19 PM | #9 |
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Or maybe we can figure out a way to turn all you upside down guys to right side up guys... haha
Assuming it all works out that is.
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:22 PM | #10 | |
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:28 PM | #11 | |
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:30 PM | #12 |
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Hahahahahahah NICE!!!
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February 23rd, 2012, 10:31 PM | #13 |
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lol haha
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February 24th, 2012, 07:52 AM | #14 | |
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But you having the problem means the injector pulse is continuing past the point where the cylinder is creating a vacuum in the TB therefore allowing the vacuum in the MAP sensor line to injest fuel when it equalizes to atmospheric. Advancing the injector pulse timing should fix this. Basically you want a little airflow before and after the injector pulse so no residual fuel remains in the throttle body. |
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February 24th, 2012, 09:18 AM | #15 | |
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Example: If you took a garden hose with a spray nozzle and shot it through a 12" hole in a board from 3 feet away, most of the water stream would go through the hole, but some of the spray is going to land on the board itself and start trickling down. That is what is happening with the throttle bodies. In both kinds of install, the vacuum port is too close to the injector. But with the upside down installs, it does imply that the injector is drowning in trapped gas. One way to find out (for upside down people only) is to go for a ride, then remove one of the injectors to see if gas runs out.
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February 24th, 2012, 08:20 PM | #16 |
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Did any of you have the issue of when you're riding at 7k+ rpms and then want to brake fast so you pull the clutch in, close the throttle completely, and when the engine drops it just goes straight to zero and stalls? It's as if idle settings didnt exist and fuel gets cut off when i abruptly close the throttle. I'm going to test it out with the fuel decel cutoff higher. I was on stock settings which was 3000rpms for the -30 and then the rest were 2000rpms.
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February 24th, 2012, 08:26 PM | #17 | |
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I suspect most my issues is because of that swap since nobody else is having stalling issues and Matt cant recreate the gas in the sensor issue either. We shall find out. Btw, the emptied fuel filter is working great. No gas got past it. I'll do a few more rides this weekend to confirm. My setup is I used, 2inches of stiff 1/4inch fuel line to go from PORT to FILTER then 1foot of blue fuel line to the MAP sensor. Since my PORT is on top, it stands the FILTER up vertically so gas can drop back down. Pictures to follow after I jump out of a plane tomorrow morning. Wish me a cushy landing.
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February 24th, 2012, 08:44 PM | #18 | |
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I have set it at 3000 across the board and it works better but if I'm coming off a high throttle setting ~7000+ and pull the clutch it will die. I'm going to increase the setting to 4000 and see how that reacts. If that doesn't correct it enough then I will set it up high again which effectively eliminates the feature. |
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February 24th, 2012, 09:54 PM | #19 |
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@flynjay Ok good. At least we eliminated that as a injector on top or on bottom issue and it's a universal issue. Universal issues are easier to confirm and fix.
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February 26th, 2012, 08:30 AM | #20 |
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Thoughts about the fuel filter
I was looking at the injectors and I noticed the little orifices that the gas comes out of. They are really small - 60 microns.
The kit has a pre-filter. Those are typically 150 micron or bigger so the fuel can flow through them by gravity to the fuel pump. I've seen no data as to how fine the kit filter actually is. Based on what I've been reading, a 150 micron particle will clog the injectors. I've heard some people refer to the different filter types as high pressure and low pressure. That really refers to where they are installed - the high pressure side of the fuel pump or the low pressure side - and not actually that they can handle higher pressures (which all of them can). The EFI "high pressure" filters are typically 10 micron as far as I can tell. So for those of you that have the kit installed, if you haven't done so already, you might want to look at installing a 10 micron filter after the fuel pump and before the injectors. I looked online and the prices are all over the place, but here is one that looks reasonable. What do you think?
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February 26th, 2012, 07:42 PM | #21 |
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@EMSRacer07, @Scattcatt Little update with my tests.
I tried out some new firmware that Matt sent me and here are the results... summary, very successful. I installed firmware that put the MAP sensor on the correct cylinder, C1, and a CAL file, and set fuel decel cutoff to 4000rpms at all values. 1) So far I see no gas going to my MAP sensor. Not sure if it'll take longer but at the moment, I didnt see anything. 2) Stalling from 12k rpms straight to zero by pulling in the clutch and closing the throttle did not occur but like you said, rpms dropped slower. Might be the 4000rpm cutoff point. 3) Idle is much much more stable. I had a bucking issue as well and that seemed to disappear as well. First test ride seems pretty positive. I'll be doing a few more test rides the following week. Lets hope I dont get stranded. Also, I sent Matt logs on my ENTIRE test ride. Hopefully that will help him refine the firmware and CAL settings.
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February 26th, 2012, 08:18 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
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February 26th, 2012, 08:58 PM | #23 |
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Glad to hear it! That's excellent news! How did the MAP sensor tubing look after your ride? (How much gasoline accumulated) I took mine out for another hard ride today in the twisties, never let the RPM's get below around 9k and was WOT for the majority of the time. The bike handles wonderfully. The only issue that I've run into is if we all stop for a short while and I key the bike off then turn the bike back on a short time later. It seems the ECU thinks that the bike is starting from a cold start and then runs rough for a little bit. Almost as if it takes the ECU a little while to realize, "Oh, wait. The engine is already hot, no need to do warm up procedures" or whatever. Once it gets over it things run great. One potential hazard and warning to you guys though that I noticed today, I can't confirm the cause of this as it's only happened once but I had an issue of the throttle dragging out after blipping at low RPM after a warm start. As if the throttle was sticking (which very well could be the case as that's happened before. The throttle sync screw has rubbed against the MAP sensor tubing before which I suspected may have been the problem) the small issue went away within a couple of miles. This rough running after a warm start also has made it more inconvenient for me regarding my headlights as well. I've had issues with my headlights cutting out ever since I've had the bike and the problem is most apparent during high speed twistie riding (go figure...) The most effective way for me to turn them back on in the past was to cycle the key quickly. With the fuel injection kit this is a bit trickier now though so I tend to just leave them off when they cut. Not that big of a deal, they come back on over time plus I'm in a group of +-8 riders when we tear up the twisties anyway and I never lead as I always have the smallest bike. My MSF instructor says it's probably the headlight relay as I'm running HID lights (also not something I put on the bike, came with it) which I'm NOT familiar with. I'll check this out during the 15,000 inspection which I'll probably hit in a couple of weeks. I just hit 14,000 today.
Also I apologize if this post doesn't make much sense. I typically edit my posts like 5 or 6 times within the first few minutes of me posting lol... I'm just wiped tonight. I'll get to it later
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February 26th, 2012, 09:11 PM | #24 |
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No gasoline in the tube after the ride at all. I will go for a longer ride in the next few days to confirm but I was basically doing 40mph circles around my neighborhood and stopping hard at stop signs and accelerating as fast as I thought reasonable.
Weird thing about the startup. I'll have to look into that. How long do you wait for the pump to initialize before you hit the starter? It's hard to hear after I have my gear on so I dont actually know when it stops. I guess I could make it a habit to wait 3 seconds everytime. Maybe there's something loose with your HID's or possibly a power issue?
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February 26th, 2012, 11:26 PM | #25 |
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Great that you have no gas in the MAP line! I have very little as well, over the past 1200 miles or so I've only gotten a tiny puddle in the lines, not even enough to bother draining.
As far as the amount of time I wait I totally vary it. Sometimes it's a nearly instantaneous key-on and start, other times I key on and end up waiting for well over a full minute before I actually crank the engine. I'll have to keep note of this, if anything it would make sense if my instant starts cause the rough initial riding. My MSF instructor thinks the problem with the HID's is a power one for sure. I've personally never dealt with this relay that he's talking about though. Only one I've modified is for the blinkers after I installed LEDs on everything. It's a truly strange problem. I rarely have a problem on streets commuting to and from class. They cut at high speeds and high RPMs after hitting a bump. So it's shock related but it doesn't make sense if it was a wire that disconnected or something because they ALWAYS instantly come right back on after cycling the key.
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February 27th, 2012, 01:24 AM | #26 |
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That is weird. Cutting out at high speeds and bumps indicates a mechanical failure but the fact that you can bring them back every time by cycling the key means its a software issue. Maybe the ballasts are being funky (no better word to describe something I'm not sure of). Like the high speeds and bumps cause a small short or surge that trips an electronic safety and then the key cycle is like a form of reset cycle.
FYI about the MAP sensor, the empty fuel filter works well as a chamber to keep the gas at bay. If you find the puddle shifts around up and down the tube, it might be worthwhile putting one of these in the line angled so that gas can never get past it. Just another safety. It's not a big deal but being stranded because of a wet sensor stinks since it takes hours for it to dry.
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February 27th, 2012, 01:38 AM | #27 |
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I'll let you know what's up if I ever figure out the mystery behind my headlights. Anyway a fuel bubble! That's exactly the term I was trying to think of earlier... I just was thinking way too technical. Anyway, line to the map sensor hasn't even collected enough fuel to come remotely close to forming a bubble. That's why I haven't been too concerned about it. If it ever does form a bubble though, then for sure, I'll add in a filter or something. I have a couple laying around still from the carbs.
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February 28th, 2012, 08:29 PM | #28 |
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Good good. Confirmation that with my current setup, there is zero gas getting into the MAP sensor tubing. I can probably shorten mine soon.
I am having a different issue though. After closing the throttle all the way from almost WOT, RPM drops too slowly. I think I am also going to be remaking the throttle pulley and throttle cable bracket at some point to incorporate the decel cable. I'll let you all know if I come up with something that works and is easy to fabricate.
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February 28th, 2012, 09:08 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
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February 28th, 2012, 09:33 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
Here's a link to other people with similar problems.
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February 28th, 2012, 11:01 PM | #31 |
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Elaboration:
Fuel decel cutoff set at 4k symptoms are as follows: Blipping causes bogging instead of instant rise in rpms for rev matching (major issue). Opening throttle to maintain at any RPMs causes a slow decrease of RPMs back to idle. No stalling at stoplights. Fuel decel cutoff set at 2k (stock) symptoms are as follows: Stalling at stop lights for sure. Under 4k rpms drop past idle and comes close to stalling. Over 4k rpms are slow to return to idle. Blipping still causes bogging instead of instant rise in rpms for rev matching. Weird. Now that I have fixed the MAP issue, it's strange that I have actual performance issues. I wonder what is the cause of this. Hopefully, Matt can figure it out. I sent him logs for both settings.
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February 29th, 2012, 11:50 AM | #32 | |
ninjette.org sage
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Quote:
Bogging sounds like a MAP sensor issue or maybe running rich or lean. Did u download the map that Matt sent about the fuel enrichment factor at opening the throttle fast? I had that issue but that map he sent a while back fixed it for the most part. I get a bit of bogging when i pull the throttle but i havent put anything between the tb and MAP sensor like u guys yet. I jsut put a little filter in last night and im going to see how that works today. Ill let u guys know.
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February 29th, 2012, 01:53 PM | #33 |
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Where are you guys getting all these new maps. I checked my inbox and there was nothing from matt there.
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February 29th, 2012, 05:55 PM | #34 | |
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So you dont have a blipping issue? Like when you blip it totally feels like it did in carbs? It's no joke that when I blip fast, it just goes putt putt putt... not vroom vroom... haha I'll ask Matt about it and hopefully he has an idea. @n4mwd Matt sends out new cal files depending on the setup and the issue. Some issues are specific to our setup. Like for example, since i'm the only one with MAP sensor on cylinder 1 AND the injectors on top, he's not going to send it out to everybody.
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February 29th, 2012, 06:29 PM | #35 | |
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February 29th, 2012, 06:35 PM | #36 | |
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If you end up installing it, ask Matt to see if there is a necessity of an updated Cal file. @EMSRacer07 Matt said my MAP has the same fuel enrichment settings as everybody elses. So this isnt the issue.
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February 29th, 2012, 09:41 PM | #37 | |
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So was your new TB straight or crooked like the original? Mine is crooked too and that's why my fuel rails would not fit. But my understanding is that the crooked ones are the newer ones.
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February 29th, 2012, 11:07 PM | #38 | |
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My new TB wasnt bad. It wasnt perfect but it was definitely much better than the original. I dont think there is much of a way to go around this just because of the source of the TB.
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March 2nd, 2012, 06:21 AM | #39 | |
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Did you ever install your O2 sensors? I guess he is waiting to get the bugs out of your CAL file before he sends it to everyone. In my case, the OEM throttle bodies are in short supply at the moment so it looks like I might have to make another attempt at getting the fuel rail working on mine. Maybe in a month or two if I don't find an OEM or sell the kit first.
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March 2nd, 2012, 11:05 AM | #40 |
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Possibly. I do have the O2 sensors installed. He said most of my issues could possibly be a autotune/time thing and work itself out. I am actually going to spend the day trying to make a new pulley and cable bracket. I want to use the decel cable. It's just safer and faster to have the decel cable installed.
I also want to swap out the idle setting screw to a nice allen type screw. It's this dumb star pattern and Matt says the screw comes with the throttle body when manufactured so he's not even sure what the thread specs are on it.
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2009 Ninja 250R SE Green Sport Touring Style: ZG ST; Symtec heated grips; RAM GPS w/ mUSB; DIY reshaped seat; DIY Givi E21 Sidecases; 15T sprocket |
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