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View Poll Results: SHOULD THE CVMA 250 CLASS BE SEGREGATED BY EXPERIENCE (EXPERT/AMATEUR) NEXT SEASON? | |||
YES | 10 | 43.48% | |
NO | 11 | 47.83% | |
I DONT REALLY CARE | 2 | 8.70% | |
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll |
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May 31st, 2012, 12:21 PM | #1 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Should the CVMA 250 Class be segregated by experience (EXPERT/AMATEUR) next season?
I didn’t want to hijack the other CVMA thread, and I think this topic deserves its own. I really encourage you current/potential/guest CVMA 250 racers to participate in the thread.
Quote:
Currently the class is not segregated by experience/status: There's really no point in moving to expert if you're an amateur in the 250 class unless you plan on racing in another class that is already segregated by experience level (i.e. 600cc & up classes). I highly recommend you stay as a novice/amateur in the event you wish to graduate/move to another class that is. More as to why later. However if we opt for segregation next season here are the pros/cons: Pros:
Cons: From my experience and analytical observation, if you segregate the class by experience (expert/amateur) there's a high chance the class will die off. This is what happened with WSMC and will most likely happen with CVMA if you do. You amateurs may not see this now because it's your first year racing but when I was racing with WSMC my times were a good seconds slower than the experts. Although I got on the podium and won a race or two in the Novice class I dreaded going to the expert class because the chances of me podiuming was very slim. And I think there were others who felt the same...so we really didn't feel a need to push ourselves to become better. In fact, a racer who had won the novice class the prior year competed in the novice class the following year because said racer's time wasn't quick enough to compete in the expert class. Well, that's my understanding or so I've heard. And that's my point...when you separate the class there seems to be this comfort zone in the novice/amateur class where people think classes are separated by laptimes. Which isn't the case. In addition, those who won/competed in the novice class sought no reason to compete in the expert class and left the class/series (WSMC). And as a result the expert grid started to dwindle down, and the class/WSMC was no more. Granted there were other reasons that played a part but having a strong grid showing as a whole has more benefits than not: If you keep the group as a whole not only will current racers strive, race, and compete harder but it will also attract more and make cheap racing cheap(er). Also need to mention, if you segregate the class, and amateurs are forced to bump up to Expert status...those who plan on racing in another class will be forced to race as Experts which is a huge deterrent. Ask Darren (Demented) about this. For the good of the class I think it's best not to segregate the class for reasons I stated above. But I'd really like to hear your side because after all you are a part of this group and your voice does matter so I encourage you to speak up.
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May 31st, 2012, 12:47 PM | #2 |
la pussy gata
Name: kit
Location: xx
Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): big wheel Posts: 540
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The way it is currently I think its great that we can pay out 1st 2nd and 3rd for you guys. I doubt it will be big enough to pay that if we split. I don't want the class to die. Seeing you guys way up there is a mixed feeling of disheartening and drive. Although I may be getting better, I am still really far away and will not be getting kudos anytime in the near future. All I can do is try my best. I still vote to keep it together.
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May 31st, 2012, 01:02 PM | #3 |
CVMA#747 Ⓓⓜⓔⓝⓣⓔⓓ ⓡⓐⓒⓘⓝⓖ
Name: Darren
Location: Torrance (satyromania)
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 250R * 09 Yamaha R6 * 08 CBR 1000RR * 04 NSR 50 * 02 KX 250 Posts: A lot.
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I got fast by being in the same class...
I believe others will benefit from lining up at the start with the fast guy's. for instance... anyone could have followed REXBO when he had to start from last place. that was a free available tow that no one would get if you split it. plus .. i KNOW it would die if we segregated them... PLUS PLUS, everyone would bitch about how long the race day is!
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May 31st, 2012, 01:06 PM | #4 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I can work something out with CVMA to reward a trophy & cash purse for you Amateurs at the end of the season (i.e. for overall points).
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May 31st, 2012, 01:10 PM | #5 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Did you see Alex's start? Bastard past me going into T1. And I had freakin' pole! I didn't realize that was him until I watched his vid.
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May 31st, 2012, 01:22 PM | #6 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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I definitely believe it would die if split, HOWEVER since it is an entry level class, there should be some kind of rewards for the amateurs. Maybe an informal reward trophy for top amateur?
And in the spirit of having a really fun grid maybe the experts should treat the "graduating" amateurs to something at the end of the year, or in this case the beginning of the new season. Actually, since we're already whores enough and always mentoring the new racers, maybe we should do an AFM style thing where the experts mentor new racers, help them improve and get their race game polished. EDIT: to be clear, you're talking about a championship points split as well as starting in a different wave/qualifying position. Championship points, possibly yes, no reason not to have their own trophies/contingency. Starting wave and qualifying no, so that the amateurs can race with the experts and get a tow like Darren said, and also earn the points to move into expert. BTW: Jon its about time you got rid of the yellow plate, you've been racing for like 4 years. Last futzed with by Rexbo; May 31st, 2012 at 02:22 PM. |
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May 31st, 2012, 01:23 PM | #7 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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I voted yes to split but with reservations. I think it would be nice for amateurs to have a prize at the end, recognition among racers in there own skill group perhaps a bit of contingency money to off set a little of the expenses.
At the same time sandbagging to stay there or no drive to advance as you stated can stale out the class as well. This would have to be fixed with rule changes, win x amount of times auto bump to expert. X number of points auto bump to expert. To avoid the issue Darren faces right now and what others would face if they wanted to race a diffrent class would have to come from CVMA and them allowing a person to be considered expert in one class bit amateur in another. So say Darren could be expert in 250 class but run amateur in open. With out that rule change in no way can you split the class. As someone who will be a new racer and a slow one at that, I would hate to see less people want to race a 250 or pigeon hole current racers for a plastic trophy. As far as what Alex said, I don't see the huge time difference or issues with keeping the races as they are. Experts and amateurs still grid up the same, start the same and race with eachother just at the end of the day top 3 E gets some plastic, top 3 A gets some plastic. I dont see it as a big deal either way though as the 250 class is lucky. Everyone pits together, everyone hangs out together and everyone helps eachother. It's plain ole good time racing fun in its puriest form. I guess what I am saying is it would be nice for the amateurs but if there is even a chance that it could even remotely change either the feel of "250 racing" or stagnate the class in any way shape or form then a great big hell NO. You guys put in too much work to build and grow a community for 250 racing at CVMA rather then a class for it and that needs to be protected at all costs. |
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May 31st, 2012, 01:29 PM | #8 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
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with the way our class is... we might as well just award cups of vodka for the top 3 amatuers after the race ourselves. "good job kid, now lets drink you into the dirt so i can beat you tomorrow"
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May 31st, 2012, 02:09 PM | #9 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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Wont work, we would sandbag the race just so tiff would be a top 3 just so we could enjoy drunken Tiffani shenanigans because let's face it there is nothing funnier then a drunken tiff.
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May 31st, 2012, 02:23 PM | #10 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Matt
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Triumph Bonneville; 2008 Ninja 250r (trackbike) Posts: 748
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I say keep it together. I need to size up my competition when I get back.
Then again, this is coming from one that is tired of the crash fest and primordial soup of various levels of talent that is Amateur Middleweights. Its like the "B" Group of Racing...which to me just spells disaster. I am kinda glad I am getting out of that class, |
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May 31st, 2012, 05:50 PM | #11 |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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I've emailed Dustin to arrange something for the top 3 Amateurs at the end of the season (banquet). Waiting on Dustin to reply back. I'll keep you posted.
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May 31st, 2012, 07:29 PM | #12 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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May 31st, 2012, 07:39 PM | #13 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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May 31st, 2012, 08:08 PM | #14 |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Damn you for catching that!!!
You are my Nemesis!!!
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May 31st, 2012, 10:14 PM | #15 |
CVMA #666
Name: Shawn
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2009 R6 (race), 2009 250r (race) Posts: 267
Blog Entries: 1
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yeah you better exempt yourself Jonathan lol, amateur my ass haha. I like keeping the expert and amateur together, it's nice trying to keep up with the super fast guys....and our grid size is getting huge lol. BUT it would be cool to have the amateurs be rewarded lol.
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May 31st, 2012, 11:29 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Shon
Location: Columbia, sc
Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 132
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I don't race with CVMA, & likely, never will.....since I live on the opposite side of the country!
Just a reminder.....it's always great to talk about lap times, & podium finishers.....expert or novice.....but there is literally an entire grid behind you that likely races weekend in, & weekend out, with little to no hope of being "that guy". They do it because they love racing, but don't necessarily have the drive, money, or time to be running up front. For front runners, it's about winning, points, contingency money. For them, it's about finishing, not crashing, & maybe going a little faster than they did last race. Everybody starts somewhere. Not recognizing novice racers can kind of "demotivate" them. CCS grids us all together, & awards us finishes together.....which sucks! That means to "win" my race, I have to beat a guy that won 4 national championships last year. While its obviously not impossible, it sucks to be the first yellow plate across the line, & not get 1st place points, plaques, or contingency money. Grid them together, & point them seperately would be my vote. There's always the argument that the different levels can interfere with the on track racing....but in the end, that's racing!!!! Just throwing in my $.02 Great topic, btw |
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June 1st, 2012, 09:40 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: dino
Location: Oceanside, Ca
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 Street, '09 250 Race, '13 300 Race Posts: A lot.
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Good write up Nem!
As a first year racing novice, I'm for not changing the current setup. I don't want to take the risk of killing the class just so I can get some trophies especially when it happened at other racing orgs. It would be nice to get contingency for 1-5 instead of 1-3.
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CVMA #55 |
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June 1st, 2012, 10:27 AM | #18 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Dustin hasn't replied back. It's still too soon...besides we have 7-8 months till the banquet.
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June 1st, 2012, 01:25 PM | #19 |
Wartown, USA
Name: Bryan
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R SE, 2007 Ninja 650R, and assorted other bikes Posts: A lot.
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This is the issue that every racing group runs into at some point an time. What happens is you start having some racers that have the money to spend on performance racing, and when newcomers start racing they have little to no chance of competing with the old "pros".
The old pros, want to keep upgrading their bikes, and running faster and faster. The newcomers get frustrated because they can't afford all the goodies, practice track time, and they get real tired of losing every race because they can't afford the hot stuff. So the group runs into the age old problem...How do we keep newcomers coming to race, while still giving the old "pros" the racing they enjoy. Inevitably every single competition group out there eventually chooses to split things up into amateur/pro, or some other kind of division to address the issue. As to whether its time or not for CVMA.....if you are asking the question.....its probably past time to address it. Just my 2 cents. |
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June 1st, 2012, 01:59 PM | #20 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
But the 250 class is all about skills not so much about performance parts. Ted Rich and Bryan (Sierrahotel) and other 250 racers have proven this. Ted Rich did a 2:09 on a stock bike (tires & slip-on exhaust upgrades). That's 2 seconds (now 3 seconds) from the lap record. Bryan, lacking suspension enhancements, pulled a 2:11 on his first time racing the bike. Those are impressive numbers. In addition, you have guys on fully modded bikes that aren't even close to those numbers. What I like about CVMA is that they listen to their riders, and they try their best to cater to our concerns. If the 250 class is showing a grid size of 30+...yeah, we may want to consider splitting up the group. Us faster guys are always out to help new comers become faster. We sacrifice our practice sessions just to give amateurs/new comers a tow. I do understand what you're saying though which is why I'm proposing an awards for the top amateurs at the end of the season. Just throwing ideas out there but top Amateur finishers MAY receive the following: TROPHY TIRE CONTINGENCY CASH PURSE AFTERMARKET PARTS MISC (i.e. OAKLEY EYEWEAR, GEAR, ETC.) That's a whole lot than what us front runners are receiving at the banquet: Tea cups.
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June 1st, 2012, 02:14 PM | #21 | ||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: dino
Location: Oceanside, Ca
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 Street, '09 250 Race, '13 300 Race Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Quote:
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CVMA #55 |
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June 1st, 2012, 02:50 PM | #22 | |
Gear crash test dummy
Name: Max
Location: South Bay (So. Cal)
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250 race bike, 2014 ZX-636r Posts: A lot.
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WOAH WOAH WOAH ....you guys get tea cups!??!?! |
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June 1st, 2012, 03:09 PM | #23 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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it is for now... until someone rolls in on a moriwaki 4-stroke or a F450 thumper.
But in reality, in the interest of making this the most entry level friendly class, I do think there should be rewards for amateurs while still letting them race with the experts. Best compromise I can see is extending the contingency to 5 places (which in lots of cases comes with larger grid sizes). Even if CVMA won't, I still think the experts should have some informal rewards for the amateurs at the end of the year, since we all know each other anyway. |
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June 1st, 2012, 03:18 PM | #24 | |
CVMA #74 WSMC #750
Name: Nemesis
Location: On the track
Join Date: Oct 2009 Motorcycle(s): All of them Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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June 1st, 2012, 03:42 PM | #27 | |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I very well may be the minority in that point of view though but that is how I look at it. I all ready have offers of practice tows and have gotten lots of tips all ready from the top guys in the class. It just seems this class is a bit diffrent at CVMA then the others and as nem is trying to do here view it as such. |
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June 1st, 2012, 07:34 PM | #29 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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June 1st, 2012, 07:54 PM | #30 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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June 1st, 2012, 08:10 PM | #32 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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June 1st, 2012, 08:14 PM | #33 |
Internet Slut
Name: Jeff
Location: L.A.
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.
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June 2nd, 2012, 10:25 AM | #34 | |
CVMA#747 Ⓓⓜⓔⓝⓣⓔⓓ ⓡⓐⓒⓘⓝⓖ
Name: Darren
Location: Torrance (satyromania)
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 250R * 09 Yamaha R6 * 08 CBR 1000RR * 04 NSR 50 * 02 KX 250 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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**CVMA#747**AFM#747R**M1GP#77**LeoVince*RaceTech*Hotbodies*Cyclemall*Bridgestone * Motorad*Dainese*PolyMoto*Woodcraft**Visit The Dmented Racing Youtube Channel* |
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June 2nd, 2012, 10:26 AM | #35 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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June 2nd, 2012, 11:15 AM | #36 |
CVMA#747 Ⓓⓜⓔⓝⓣⓔⓓ ⓡⓐⓒⓘⓝⓖ
Name: Darren
Location: Torrance (satyromania)
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 250R * 09 Yamaha R6 * 08 CBR 1000RR * 04 NSR 50 * 02 KX 250 Posts: A lot.
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hahah... touche'!
well played sir. but seriously, keep it all in the same gang!
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**CVMA#747**AFM#747R**M1GP#77**LeoVince*RaceTech*Hotbodies*Cyclemall*Bridgestone * Motorad*Dainese*PolyMoto*Woodcraft**Visit The Dmented Racing Youtube Channel* |
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June 3rd, 2012, 09:30 PM | #37 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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I can kill this one right here. Femmewalla exists because Aimee wants it to, and its part of the deal for why CVMA exists. You might not like it, some women might not like it, but she wants it to be there and its her baby. Either way, doesn't really have much to do with this thread...
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June 3rd, 2012, 11:15 PM | #38 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: dino
Location: Oceanside, Ca
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 Street, '09 250 Race, '13 300 Race Posts: A lot.
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because the picture below totally settled the expert/amateur debate...
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CVMA #55 |
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June 4th, 2012, 06:19 AM | #40 |
CVMA#747 Ⓓⓜⓔⓝⓣⓔⓓ ⓡⓐⓒⓘⓝⓖ
Name: Darren
Location: Torrance (satyromania)
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 250R * 09 Yamaha R6 * 08 CBR 1000RR * 04 NSR 50 * 02 KX 250 Posts: A lot.
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**CVMA#747**AFM#747R**M1GP#77**LeoVince*RaceTech*Hotbodies*Cyclemall*Bridgestone * Motorad*Dainese*PolyMoto*Woodcraft**Visit The Dmented Racing Youtube Channel* |
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