My 250r - Wrong Tool for the Job?

[BlackNinja8]

Hello,

I bought my Ninjette, a 2011 to use as a commuter to and from work (I do have a car also). After only 75 miles I'm wondering if I have the right bike to accomplish my objectives. Here's why:

I have an absolutely beautiful commute consisting of 15 miles of country 2-lane road, followed by 10 miles of wide open-zero traffic-3 lane interstate, followed by 15 miles of country roads. What concerns me is the 10 miles of interstate. While I haven't yet done the commute, I have practiced speeds up to 60mph rotating off and on a 2 mile parkway stretch. And I notice there is considerable wind and unsteadiness at even 50mph. It is very disconcerting. Commuting in my car I'm typically doing 70mph+ on this stretch of interstate just to keep up. Those of you who typically ride the interstates, have you gotten comfortable with the instability? Is this something attributable to my noobiness? I would like to be able to cruise at 70-75 without fear of being blown over, but even if I can comfortably do 60mph I'd be happy. Does the 40 minute commute seem too much for the Ninjette?

NOTE: I considered getting a 650r and FZ6 but ended up with the Ninjette figuring the learning curve would be better. I was scared off the FZ6 because of the top end zip, and thought a 250r would be a good option to start and eventually upgrade to the 650r. Would the 650 be better for me now?

[saxnbass]

I would have no issues driving that on the Ninjette. I've not felt this unsteadiness you speak of at high speeds, even when I had the stock tyres still.

[LiquidBiohazard]

Keep your legs in tight to the bike... I find that the faster I go the more stable the bike feels...

[iceknyght]

I commute 45 miles to work. About 30 of that is 2-lane road and the other 15 is highway riding where I am doing at least 75-80... I don't feel unstable at all at those speeds... There is definitely more wind, but I don't feel like it is 'pushing' me at all, well, unless I drive by a big semi...

I think you just need a bit more time and practice...

[thisisbenji]

You might just not be confident yet? The first thing I did when I bought my 250 was drive it 50 miles on the interstate to my house, followed by 190 miles on the interstate the next morning to my school. I was keeping it in the range of 70-80mph the whole time and not once did I feel uncomfortable. The only time it got a little iffy for me was with strong cross winds of 30-40 mph while going 80 mph forwards.

If you don't feel very comfortable trying going 50+ mph on a road bicycle, now that's unstable. lol

So to answer your question, I think it's very much so attributed to the fact that your a new rider.

I'v had my ninja up to top speed before and it was 100% more stable feeling than my civic going 100 mph.

[BlackNinja8]

Awesome! Thanks for the responses so far. I feel much better - buyers remorse just got kicked in the nuts!

Question: Should I upgrade the stock tires? Would this make the bike more stable and easier to ride?. I've been reading every thread on here for the last month (its a wonder I still have a job...or a wife) and it sounds like the Pirelli Rosso II would be good for my purposes? Is it worth it or will it be a waste given my lack of skill?

[thisisbenji]

That's up to you, but personally I'd just ride the stock tires for commuting until I needed new ones. The only reason I could see to upgrade the tires is if your riding twisties or the track.

[FrugalNinja250]

I commute every day on my '06, 13 miles of which 10 is interstate at speeds up to 75 prevailing. I've had zero problems, other than tailgaters (Do people really think that tailgating someone will make the next car ahead in line go faster? Really?). This is my first bike, 3 years and 38,000 miles so far, so I can't say if a larger, heavier bike would be any less susceptible to winds, but so far I've ridden in winds up to 50mph gusts and 40+ sustained. It wasn't comfortable, it wasn't easy, but it was possible so I did it. Comfort with a task is fairly proportional to experience doing a task.

[choneofakind]

OP, you're fine to ride 10 miles every day on the highway. People have gone much further at that speed on ninjettes and been just fine.

Have some fun on the little bike, and appreciate it for what it is, a fun little bike that you can flog and not end up at 90 mph in a 45... If you want a bigger bike that is a little more composed on the highway, take a look at the 500R or the 650. Both are great bikes.

[Makenza]

On top of what everyone else is saying, I would suggest getting a Double Bubble wind shield. Regardless of brand, it will help out in highway speeds.
I've recently put in a zero gravity double bubble on my bike, and hopping on the freeway going 80mph is a lot easier to plow through.
Plus the fact that it makes it easier/more comfortable since I don't have to tuck as much to get out of the wind, compared to the stock windscreen.

[akima]

I have 2 thoughts

1) I can't remember how I felt the first time I was being pushed around by the wind on my motorcycle, but I can imagine it feels strange and disconcerting. Unless you're literally being thrown around the road and you're unable to stay in control of your bike and in your lane, I think there's probably nothing to worry about (maybe a more experienced rider can chime in... am I right?). It probably just feels scary, but isn't actually anything to worry about. There appears to be a lot of that with motorcycles!

2) You seem to be of the impression that having a bike with a bigger engine will somehow cause the bike to be blown around less. That might not be the case. I've never ridden a 600CC plus bike, but I can imagine the two main factors that effect how much you get blown around are the weight of the bike and the surface area on the side of the bike that the wind can push against. The Ninjette is probably not much lighter than the other bikes you thought about getting and it probably has roughly the same surface area that the wind can push against. Again... more experienced riders wanna chime in?

Also: I've cruised at ~90MPH (indicated) many times on my ninjette. She seems happy at those speeds

[leed]

So honestly, this is something that never really made sense to me. Heavier bikes really aren't that much more stable. And they really aren't that much heavier. I've ridden my 250 with over 70 pounds of gear + me, and I never noticed a difference in stability between that and without any of that. I've spent some time on a CB450SC on the highway, which is ~400 Dry weight, as compared to the Ninja 250's 375 Wet weight, and did not experience any noticeable gain in stability.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by Makenza

On top of what everyone else is saying, I would suggest getting a Double Bubble wind shield. Regardless of brand, it will help out in highway speeds.
I've recently put in a zero gravity double bubble on my bike, and hopping on the freeway going 80mph is a lot easier to plow through.
Plus the fact that it makes it easier/more comfortable since I don't have to tuck as much to get out of the wind, compared to the stock windscreen.

I ordered a cheapo DB windscreen for $35 off ebay. It hasn't arrived yet but it looked to be the same. I assume its coming from China by way of Cali. I'll let you guys know how it works out once I mount it...ummm attach it.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by trixter

bigger bikes are more stable on the highway. There was a thread "I heard all the cliches today" that goes into this aspect. I am too lazy to find the link

As for being blown about, if its just pressure on you that is normal and something you do get used to. The same with windblast from other vehicles, particularly bigger trucks.

If it is a wobble I do not think that is normal. A wobble should be investigated and not dismissed. It may be rider error or alignment or something mechanical (like something is loose or damaged). Then again it could be road surface, concrete bridges with the grooves for drainage are notorious for drifting a bike to one side, if you fight that it can feel like a wobble.

Whatever the problem is it should be clearly identified so that a proper resolution can be done.


Until I know if its wobble or not I can ask many more questions so I have to wait on the OP. I guess I could ask a contingency question:

If it is wobble how much pressure are you putting on the bars? Bars are control inputs not a resting place. You should be able to remove your hands from the bars without shifting around first. Uneven pressure on the bars can cause them to turn (duh) which may be so slight you dont notice you are doing it. Then as you try to correct that inadvertent steering input you induce a wobble. Inexperience and a bit of fear can lead to this (I dunno if its common but I would not be surprised if it is).

TBH I wasn't cruising at that speed, only working my way up to it, and I felt unsteady when I got there so I backed off. I bought my bike used so I suppose anything is possible but the seller said the bike had never seen pavement and looked as such. I'll test again and update later tonight.

Would a wider tire make freeway travel a bit more pleasant?

[Motofool]

BN8,

The bikes are naturally stable and resist cross wind disturbances; just do not try to correct them.

Gyroscopic effect is our friend: the faster those wheels turn, the more stable the machine becomes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiTUiop9etk

My Ninja is naked and I daily ride 31 miles of interstate at 80~85 mph (indicated): never a problem with wind (cross or upstream).

The stock tires are perfectly fine for commuting, wear them out!!

[Kevin2109]

I had no problem keeping my bike at 90+ for an hour straight

[kcaja1]

My Ninja, with double bubble, is WAY more stable than my Triumph Bonneville at speed of over 75mph. I feel more confident with the Ninja.

[flynjay]

When I first started riding in early January, I worked the speed up in increments. First 25mph roads, then 35, 45, 55, 60 etc. Every speed increment was a little uncomfortable compared to the last but you get used to it.

There is wind buffeting, just tuck in a little bit and keep light pressure on the bars. Don't try to fight the bike, you will just induce more wobble.

Two weeks ago I went on my first long trip. Met some friends at a curvy road 86miles from home. It was all 65 mph two lane highway all the way there and three land interstate half of the way back.

On the way back, I was completely comfortable crusing at 80 mph (indicated).

Work up the speed in increments, it will get more comfortable.

If you have a loud helmet wear ear plugs. I just bought a new helmet and it is much quieter and makes a big difference.

[thurt88]

I think what you feel with the wind and all is the same on any bike. Its because you are new. My little ninja goes 80+ on the freeway with no issues on a 45 min commute 1 way.

[choneofakind]

Wear earplugs even if your helmet isn't "loud". You'll be amazed at the difference that earplugs make on the rate at which you tire. There's so much low frequency noise from the wind that it doesn't seem all that "loud" per say, but it does induce a headache and fatigue quite nicely when you're riding for a while. Once you wear them, you'll never want to go back to riding without them. I know I won't. I like my sensitive hearing.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by Motofool

BN8,

The bikes are naturally stable and resist cross wind disturbances; just do not try to correct them.

Gyroscopic effect is our friend: the faster those wheels turn, the more stable the machine becomes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiTUiop9etk

My Ninja is naked and I daily ride 31 miles of interstate at 80~85 mph (indicated): never a problem with wind (cross or upstream).

The stock tires are perfectly fine for commuting, wear them out!!

After further research, I'm thinking the cause of my instability may have been from choking the life out of the handlebars. I don't specifically remember doing it, but it does sound like something I would do - being my first time at speed.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

........... choking the life out of the handlebars. I don't specifically remember doing it.....

That is perfectly normal.
It is your self-preservation instinct working at its best.

Riding a bike is a very unnatural thing and it is absolutely counter-intuitive.
It is a skill to be learned, little by little.

With practice and riding time, you will incorporate the speed, the noise, the wind and even the rain onto your comfort zone.

You will also learn that smooth and little control fatigues you less and it achieves a more harmonic relation with the physics of the bike (just like dancing with it).

During that learning process, please, ride as slowly and non-aggressively as practical with traffic conditions.

Because now your brain is working at full while paying attention to many little details and stimulus, your attention to traffic is not as good as it should be.

Slowing down and allowing extra room ahead of you creates a safety margin to compensate for the reduced attention.

Staying alert and away from injuries should be your absolute priority for the next six month of riding.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by trixter

lets first see why you are having this problem

Can you check rear tire alignment? Here is a video that discusses it to make it easy. The alignment stuff is near the end but it is not long and not bad info to know for general maintenance.

Link to original page on YouTube.

this is by far the best video i've ever seen on chain adjustment and rear wheel alignment. good job.

[headshrink]

Much of this has likely already been said (and it comes up a few times a year), but my answer is as follows:

The 250r is one of the more ideal bikes for exactly the ridding you mentioned. The only thing that would make it more perfect is if you had to go on twisties. You get used to the freeways, no problem. I do recommend changing your counter-sprocket from the stock 14 tooth, to a 15 tooth. This will benefit you greatly, both on the freeway, but also smooth out the shifting around town. Honestly, I'm often in 5th on the freeway, and I go a little faster than you.

As for the wind... squeeze your knees, be LIGHT on the handlebars, keep your elbows in and down if your jacket puffs up like a sail, lean forward if it helps, and just dance with it. I actually enjoy it. You may want to stick to the center of the lane when it's windy, until you get comfortable with it.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Much of this has likely already been said (and it comes up a few times a year), but my answer is as follows:

The 250r is one of the more ideal bikes for exactly the ridding you mentioned. The only thing that would make it more perfect is if you had to go on twisties. You get used to the freeways, no problem. I do recommend changing your counter-sprocket from the stock 14 tooth, to a 15 tooth. This will benefit you greatly, both on the freeway, but also smooth out the shifting around town. Honestly, I'm often in 5th on the freeway, and I go a little faster than you.

As for the wind... squeeze your knees, be LIGHT on the handlebars, keep your elbows in and down if your jacket puffs up like a sail, lean forward if it helps, and just dance with it. I actually enjoy it. You may want to stick to the center of the lane when it's windy, until you get comfortable with it.

What exactly does the 15T do? Is it just more teeth, faster pull? Does that give you more pull at lower RPM?

I'm realizing from all the feedback that my problem has been being heavy handed on the bars. I've been riding straight arms/locked elbows and with most weight on my wrists. I read a post somewhere else where the OP said you want to place your arms in the same ergo as if you were typing on a keyboard. I can't wait to practice again this weekend, I think my comfort level will improve greatly by getting more weight on the tank and pegs. Thanks everyone!

[Linuss]

I rode my Ninjette 107 miles each way (214 round trip) for a few months last year, pretty much all highway with about 5 miles of rural country road. It did it just fine.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

What exactly does the 15T do? Is it just more teeth, faster pull? Does that give you more pull at lower RPM?

I'm realizing from all the feedback that my problem has been being heavy handed on the bars. I've been riding straight arms/locked elbows and with most weight on my wrists. I read a post somewhere else where the OP said you want to place your arms in the same ergo as if you were typing on a keyboard. I can't wait to practice again this weekend, I think my comfort level will improve greatly by getting more weight on the tank and pegs. Thanks everyone!

Locked elbows is definately a problem. You are basically adding an instability to the bike. Practice riding with your fingertips, by that I mean use as little force on your hands as possible. The bars should basically be floating between your grips.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

What exactly does the 15T do? Is it just more teeth, faster pull? Does that give you more pull at lower RPM?

It won't make you go any faster at the top end, that's more a function of power output to aerodynamic cross section area. What it does is allow you to shift up at somewhat higher speeds, and lowers engine RPMs while cruising on the highway in top gear. This latter effect oftentimes reduces oil consumption due to the lower RPMs.

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

I'm realizing from all the feedback that my problem has been being heavy handed on the bars. I've been riding straight arms/locked elbows and with most weight on my wrists. I read a post somewhere else where the OP said you want to place your arms in the same ergo as if you were typing on a keyboard. I can't wait to practice again this weekend, I think my comfort level will improve greatly by getting more weight on the tank and pegs. Thanks everyone!

My rule of thumb is that I want my arms to be completely relaxed and free-hanging. When I'm riding someone could push sideways on my bent elbows and my arms would flop to the side and back with no resistance. I maintain just enough grip in my hands to hold throttle and bars. If I hit a bump with just one hand on the bars the bike does not steer because my elbow bends freely.

[headshrink]

For city riding, you will shift a less frequently.... still frequently, but when you start from a dead stop at an intersection, you will shift to 2nd when you cross the intersecting street, instead of half-way across the street. Depending on the size of your street, speeds, etc..... but you get the idea, and this is what it did to me. If your bike is properly tuned, IMO you gain back what you lost, and then some.
Good luck!

[thisisbenji]

As long as we're on the topic, how hard is it to change on the sprocket on our bike? Also, what do they generally cost?

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by trixter

The rear is not that hard, pull the tire off, unbolt the old bolt on the new. Changing the front is a bit more involved but nothing someone with a passing familiarity with tools cant do. Someone with passing familiarity with tools should be able to do it in 1-2 hours tops.

The front sprocket is $15-30. There are kits that include both sprockets and a chain which can end up being a couple hundred (seems a bit high to me but I didnt investigate exactly what is in it).

After changing sprockets you need to check your chain slack. Changing teeth changes the diameter which influences slack.

A 15T front seem right up my alley for the type of riding I'll be doing. I can imagine there are too many mods for our bikes that give more bang for the buck than a $25 sprocket.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by trixter

It lowers the RPM for a given speed (increases fuel economy), helps the bike go a little faster because um well it lowers the RPM for a given speed. This is not "free" though, if you add to the top end you generally take away from the bottom end. So if you do a lot of city driving you may not want that because of the torque loss but if you do a lot of highway driving then it may be a good thing.

This is not really true. Yes it lowers your rpm's, but it also gives you less torque, which means you, on average, will have more throttle input, so the mileage increase has been somewhat debated. Personally, I geared down for a little more acceleration out of turns instead of gearing up for nicer highway manners.

As for the terminal speed argument, Terminal Velocity is affected by 2 variables; the force propelling the object (the hp of the engine @ that rpm @ that speed), and the force resisting movement of the object (friction, drag forces etc). The ninja only puts out about 30 horse without major engine modifications. Changing the gearing does nothing for this, except put the power band in a different speed range. Even then, there won't be a noticeable difference. A bore job and port job, along with opened intake and exhaust and proper jetting (and likely advanced timing and cams with different profiles as well) will make a significant enough difference in power to see a noticeable increase in top speed. Changing sprockets then will take advantage of the new power by getting the power band lined up with the speed you want it at. But simply changing sprockets won't make a noticeable difference in top speed, just make you take longer to get there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

A 15T front seem right up my alley for the type of riding I'll be doing. I can imagine there are too many mods for our bikes that give more bang for the buck than a $25 sprocket.

Don't mod your bike after owning it for 1 month, give it time and give yourself time to get used to it. As we've discovered here, your instability issues were caused by deathgrip...you could be making other mistakes and thinking that you're doing everything right and it's the bikes fault. Give it time.

Double bubble will help immensely, I have Piug and have no headwind issues when tucked in behind it. Bike is stable at highway speeds, I routinely (every day) ride it to work on freeways here at about 70-95mph, and it doesn't take much time to get it to 90.
Buy a copy of Twist of the Wrist, even if you're not planning on tracking/twisties. It will help you fix your most common problems (such as wrists...) and make your riding experience that much more enjoyable.

[AlanDog]

I think one of my first posts here was exactly along the same lines as yours. I felt exactly the same way, the bike just didn't feel stable on the freeway. I have since spent time on a Honda cx500 (~476 lbs wet) and it is a little more stable, but 90% of the feeling of instability is gone from just riding the Ninja more at freeway speeds--it took a few months. I did change my gearing to 15x44 and my gas mileage is much better, from about 55-60 mpg to about 65-70 mpg under the same conditions.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

A 15T front seem right up my alley for the type of riding I'll be doing. I can imagine there are too many mods for our bikes that give more bang for the buck than a $25 sprocket.

Actually it's more like $13 from amazon. Search JT516.15.

[headshrink]

If you think a heavier bike will be more stable, you can always put on weight.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by trixter

Are there two types of sprockets? One that is a cheaper softer steel and one that is a bit harder that will last longer? If so anyone searching for the sprocket by model number may want to investigate that to make sure its going to last a reasonable period of time.

EDIT: I mean does everyone make em out of the same quality steel (I would be surprised if that were the case but there may not be enough of a market to cheap out)

Generally there is steel and aluminum. Stay away from aluminum.

Chromoly steel is what you want.

This is what I just ordered from Amazon.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Generally there is steel and aluminum. Stay away from aluminum.

Chromoly steel is what you want.

This is what I just ordered from Amazon.

Obviously they didn't put the right photo in the description.... I hate it when they do that.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by trixter

huh, I have always gotten a bit more on the top end with sprocket changes because I was capped by the max output of the engine. By trading in torque for a slightly lower RPM the max speed I get out of the engine is slightly higher since I could still get it to go the original RPM which equates to a slightly faster speed.

Horsepower equals (torque x RPM) divided by 5252. The 250 has a fairly flat torque curve up high, so reducing RPMs directly reduces horsepower even though torque will be relatively the same. The only reliable way to measure and record speed is with a GPS, as the stock speedometer isn't linear nor all that accurate, especially at the limits of its operation. Even then, there are so many variables that affect top speed such as wind conditions, temperature (especially with carb'd motors), rider position, etc, that the only way to get consistent results is to do multiple runs each way at the same environmental conditions and average the numbers with and without a different sprocket.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Obviously they didn't put the right photo in the description.... I hate it when they do that.

Yeah I noticed that. I had to triple check the part number. In the description, it states that it is a stock photo.