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Old December 3rd, 2010, 01:54 AM   #1
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250 Ninja Nitrous

OK lets talk about nitrous oxide. There is only one CHEAP way to double the power of any engine and that is to add nitrous. There are a lot of ways to do it

At Maxton we had three systems on 250 cc motorcycles . My bike uses Boss Noss .The revolutionary new way of delivering nitrous .I went 121.8 mph and the clutch was slipping .

The 250cc Honda used the Wizards of nitrous system.It is a British system and works very well he has the fastest 250 at 126.6 mph

And the worlds fastest Ninja went 122.4 on the conventional nitrous system.

All these systems work well and there are a number of other systems that will work . The key is to be conservative and use a data logger to record the air fuel ratio and RPM so you can tune and diagnose problems.

I am still in the trail and error stage of testing. Pushing the envelope will result in engine failure. That is not because of the nitrous but doubling or tripling the power output of an engine makes the margin of error very narrow.

for instance I made seven nitrous passes at Maxton. I did not realize the clutch was slipping. It was slipping because the stock clutch will only hold 40 hp. And at 122 mph the clutch will slip because it is pushing against the wall of air.
I set my timing at the 35 deg BTDC. That is a stock new ninja timing setting. With 115 octane fuel I had no detonation and about 9.6 to 1 air fuel ratio.
I changed the timing setting to the 42 deg of timing thats the timing setting a first gen Ninja would use .BIG mistake. I also started spraying in 5th gear. I hit 120 in 1/2 a mile and poured on the nitrous. Again the clutch let go at about 121 mph .BUT the timing advance added a LOT of heat to the top of the piston.The A/F ratio was perfect but the top of the piston burned.

SO now I know to much timing is bad. I still have to get a better clutch . I have Barnett springs and a Barnett clutch .But it slipped .I am going to try the Barnett clutch kit they sell with fiber discs and new steels .I hope that works.

AS for nitrous .I have about 33 hp all motor and the bike will hit 112+ in about 1/2 mile then with nitrous.I am spraying a 20 hp shot .It is like I was riding along half throttle and then roll to full throttle. It feels great and I cant wait to sort out the clutch issue
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 06:29 AM   #2
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Excellent summary! Thanks for sharing the logic behind this.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 07:07 AM   #3
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There is logic behind this.I am not trying to blow up engines . Not trying to make a 250 ninja like a 600.We are in competition to see how fast a 250 cc motorcycle can go . and will use what ever it takes.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 10:11 AM   #4
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Sorry, I come from a car tuning background. For cars, usually 9.6:1 AF is super rich. For a conservative safe tune, we tune ~10.8-11.3, higher if the car can handle it without knocking. How were you monitoring knock? 9.6:1 is awfully rich to me and can induce predetonation with a high temp in the cylinder.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 10:56 AM   #5
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Yes 11 to 1 is optimal mixture for racing.I will get there.But Like I said conservative and methodical is the KEY. If I try to run perfect mixture I am making the margin of error even smaller. I run down the track at 10.8 and when I spray the mixture went to 8.2 then rose to 9.6. Boss Noss is very consistent that way. I made enough power to over come the clutch. Adding a little timing heated things up enough to melt a piston. Even running that rich I still went to hot. Methanol will run cooler and higher octane fuel will all help . But like I said I am still in the trial and error part of this . Any error means 300 dollars worth of pistons . Maybe 200 worth of valves and a 200 dollar clutch that I turned black in one pass . I learned a LOT this year and will progress some next year. Then discover the next hurdle . That is the fun of it.

I have no knock control. But the thing to remember I am turning 14500 RPM with a 62 mm bore. Tiny fast moving pistons with a good combustion chamber will be some what less prone to detonation. Having an adjustable ignition system is a must.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 PM   #6
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Fun topic, i'm a newb tho. Is this a wet or dry kit? Where is the nozzle placed? How do you adjust timing? Sorry for the basics....any pics also? Did you convert to EFI?
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 01:48 PM   #7
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Wow so many questions. YA this is all about having fun. Anything else read into this is missing the point.

The Boss Noss is a wet system I put the nozzles in the rubber manifolds and I adjust tgiming with a BRT-Tis from sportisimoto -USA.

I will post up a video of a static test when I get home to a computer.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 02:41 PM   #8
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This is a static test of the nitrous. It tests nothing more than the system for basic function and fuel flow. The data logger is under the rear cowling . that is what I am doing .I have to start and stop the recorder.

This is a 20 hp shot from idle in neutral with the throttle closed.The puff of smoke is the beginning of the delivery. The momentary rich condition takes some of the shock out of the nitrous hit .Listen to the revs after that. It smooths out and hits about 8000 rpm then drops back to idle. On the track the throttle is wide open . and the engine is already at 12000 RPM . So it just adds power and goes faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHjUmSb5GZg

This video is the Honda . He uses a 125 cc road race frame with a 250cc dirt bike engine a single cylinder . And he is using wizards of nitrous system. This bike is the worlds fastest 250 four stroke at 126.6 mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLXcv34mSBA

Diggin the music
this is a walk around video I made with fancy music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4sQWCgg-6E
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 03:00 PM   #9
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very cool, would a smaller dry shot work with a nozzle in the airbox out of curiousity?
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 03:20 PM   #10
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I think a dry shot will work. But only with the Brt-Tis ignition system. You see .The stock engine responds very well to timing advance.SO and this is just an example.You could run say 120 main jet and the timing at 44 deg . The fuel gets burned up by the advanced timing and makes good power . Over 30 hp like that. Then With the handle bar switch change the ignition map to 34 deg and spray dry nitrous . I have no clue what volume if it would work .But this COULD work. The basic problem is the small shot part. When you get into conventional NOS the smallest jetts are like 15 hp and when you And tiny little holes tend to freeze the tips . .

The Boss noss system is different I will just let them explain it .

Watch all the videos it will explain why I think it is the best system .I will say this They are great people to work with and I bought the system at full price . So it is not like they are paying my .I just used the system and it does what they say.

It was originally developed for snow mobile where keeping a bottle hot with a small electrical system was a problem .And they have small engines . So this system comes fully assembled electric wiring all done and sealed . All you do is install it .and run the plumbing. No fuel pump no bottle heater. and liquid horsepower delivered in as little as a 10 hp wet shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeU8motFTu0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUd6tiKlWLE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iybheIxaCyE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhHUbLpGQI
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Old August 1st, 2011, 03:57 AM   #11
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I tested my nitrous system last night. it looks like it is working and the mixture is good.
I test the system on the bench .

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old May 24th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #12
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I wanted to reserect this thread. The Boss Noss system simply put did not work as advertised. I tried for two years to get it to work. Piston and valve damage was the result each time. I sent the system to an expert to look at . After laughing at the concept of a liquid pressure regulator. He said the fuel lines are too small. And that is just the beginning.

So I dropped the system. I am now going to build a proper system. This system is from the Wizards of Nitrous in England . The owner of the company is designing the system around my bike and racing the mile. The system is computer controlled and has a lot of safety features. I have the two years of experience from racing at Maxton plus his therty years of experience. Together we are going to push the 250 Ninja to the limit . I won't speculate on the power output. But I am at 34 hp on the motor then I will be using nitrous to add between 20 and 40 hp . Because of the controll of the system. I will start with about 10 hp and add a little power at a time. The system is also very gradual in the way it brings on the power. That will allow me to A watch the clutch and B adding power slowly saves the clutch. I have most of the system and am going to start building and testing soon.

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Old May 24th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #13
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Caution: broken records ahead.
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Old May 27th, 2012, 07:53 AM   #14
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This is the computer that runs the Wizards of Nitrous system. It is called the V2 Max extreme. It has a bunch of features I have not figures out yet. The main thing I like is RPM cut off. If I hit the rev limit it cuts nitrous flow so when the ignition comes back on there is not a giant charge of nitrous and fuel in the exhaust and engine. '

It also has the ability to detect shift changes and deliver pre selected amounts of nitrous for a selected gear.

So far I have the computer wired in and the fuel pulsoid mounted, I have the nitrous parts in the mail.
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File Type: jpg nitrous computer 008.jpg (99.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg nitrous computer 009.jpg (88.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg nitrous computer 010.jpg (90.3 KB, 17 views)

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Old May 27th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #15
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Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #16
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Hahahaha
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Old May 28th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #17
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I have a couple parts ready to go . The important thing will be the hose routing. I have to make sure the hoses are a perfectly matched in length and position. This will help with the consistency of the system.

These are the nitrous nozzles, red for gasoline and blue for nitrous. They mount with clever metal screw in bits.These are the smallest nitrous nozzles I have ever seen. And that is good. There is very little space for anything on this bike.

The new rear frame section makes a nice place to lay out the components and wiring. Since this is a race bike the wiring is very exposed.I am constantly making changes and additions and subtractions, So the wiring harness is all hand made. I also have to keep in mind that the Bonneville salt flats is a very harsh environment.Everything has to be weather proof and protected from corrosion.

3 lb of nitorus should do it.
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File Type: jpg nitrous install 007.jpg (112.5 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg nitrous install 005.jpg (114.5 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg nitrous install 004.jpg (111.1 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg nitrous install 009.jpg (119.9 KB, 19 views)
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:50 AM   #18
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
There is logic behind this.I am not trying to blow up engines . Not trying to make a 250 ninja like a 600.We are in competition to see how fast a 250 cc motorcycle can go . and will use what ever it takes.
Hey bro awesome what you are doing and im all for it. my only thought on this is if the bet is how fast a 250cc can go and money isn't a big deal u may want to look at trying to get the motor from an 89 kawasaki zxr 250 i believe it was called. stock it pushed almost double the current ninjas hp and topped between 140&160 depending who you go by. hard to get in th US but not impossible
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:02 PM   #20
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By the way the motor is an inline 4 four stroke 249cc
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:05 PM   #21
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Correction 45 hp
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:14 PM   #22
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I raced agenced an I four at Maxton. It was a Yamaha and it only went four mph faster. The two stroke 250 can get above 150 but the four strokes only hit 115 tops. The bikes are way to rare. I looked for engines and could not find parts. Also money is an object. But at this point the ninja twin has the top speed.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:34 PM   #23
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Fair enough. You r right to rare for parts. it was just a thought.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 03:23 AM   #24
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Thanks for the thought.
I have a friend in Australia building a Honda 4 250cc with a belt driven supercharger. If he ever finishes it he will be the fastest 250.

As its stands its accually a Honda single with nitrous with the fastest four stroke 250 cc motorcycle. He went 131 last year. That is the speed fo beat.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #25
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thats fast & awesome!!!! is he in the forums also?
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Old June 5th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #26
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No he lives in a shed

I just got the business end of the nitrous system ready for final assembly.


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Old June 6th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #27
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a photo of a 250cc I four with a supercharger.It is a Honda and it runs.

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Old June 12th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #28
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I have my Wizards of Nitrous system installed. There are so many details to installing this I could not have done it with out the help of the owner of the company. Things like hose routing and fitting size. All add up to consistent performance.

The next race is in 22 days on July 7 I am doing all I can to test this system out. cant wait for the video.
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File Type: jpg naked ninja 002.jpg (126.7 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg naked ninja 007.jpg (89.4 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg naked ninja 005.jpg (119.9 KB, 19 views)
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Old June 20th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #29
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I ordered the last of the nitrous system today.
Because of the cost of this system. I had to purchas it little by little. All total the system is pushing two thousand dollars. This is a MAJOR investment for me. But I think or hope it will work. Last year and in 2010 I used the boss Noss system. I tried to get it to work and damaged five engines.
This system is much different. But the important thing is the owner of the company.Trevor Langfield, He has worked with me through every detail of this system. Since it is an extream system there is no kit no plug and play nitrous. I started with the engine. Selecting pistons and making compromises. I need high compression but not sharp edges. Later I will have custom pistons made.
Then the bottle placement is critical. But I don't have room for large bottle. But I need volume. So with his guidance. I put together the two bottle system.

Everything is also run from V max controller. This will controll the nitrous . Bringing the power on slowly so it does not blow through the clutch. And cutting it off if the clutch slips.

I will be testing this system in Ohio on July 7. It will be the first test. I feel good about it but am nervous.

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Old June 21st, 2012, 07:17 PM   #30
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The system is almost finished and installed. Now I have to start testing. I will set the system up to add 10 HP and see how it all works out. I can add as much as I want later.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 06:46 PM   #31
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Old June 30th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #32
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This is a static test.
just testing flow and jetting. The next test is at the track. I will start with the bike at 100mile an hour and 1/4 mile from the finish line. Then spray 10 hp to see how that works out.

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Old July 9th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #33
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I tested the system in Ohio this weekend. The weather was bad. 112 at the line and a 10 mph headwind. With the heat the relitive air density was about 4500 feet and the bike was struggling. I got 101 after some tuning . Then with the nitrous it went to 111.0 mph. My personal best for Ohio. That was just a 10 hp shot to test the system.

The system worked perfectly and there was no damage to the engine. Now to tune it for twenty hp of nitrous
I will post a video soon
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Old July 13th, 2012, 02:48 AM   #34
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This is a video of a run in Ohio. It is a test run to see how the nitrous worked. I hit the button at 92mph and held it to the finish. the speedo read 110 but the time slip went to 111.0.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old July 13th, 2012, 04:21 AM   #35
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Very cool! I really enjoy reading through your progress. Keep up the awesome work and, as always, good luck!
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Old July 13th, 2012, 05:00 AM   #36
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Old July 21st, 2012, 03:59 AM   #37
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I started working on the bike for September.
This is the last race of the season. So it's go big of go home. The Wizards of nitrous system performed flawlessly in July. But because of the heat and some other problems the bike was not running as well as it could.
Part of the problem with July was it was a rush. I was not planning on going. Then with three weeks to go I got a chance .
The July run was a test . I had a ten hp shot of nitrous . I had four seconds of ramp up and the computer was set to 90%. Even with the bike out of tune a little. The nitrous pushed it from 92 mpg to 111mph in a little over 1/4 mile.
For the September Speed trials I am too going with a therty shot of nitrous. And I will go on the dyno a couple weeks before the race. That was the engine will be in perfect tune.

I don't know how fast it will go with 60 hp but it will be fun to see. The main thing now it to spend time setting the system up. There is no room for error with 100% increase in Power.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 06:10 AM   #38
choneofakind
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60hp huh? Hmmm that makes my dreams of a 650 engine swap seem possible!
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Old July 21st, 2012, 07:09 AM   #39
Racer x
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Anything is possible. Will you ride it full throttle with no front brakes though. ;-)
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Old July 21st, 2012, 07:19 AM   #40
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Thought I seen somewhere the 250's engine lower end will blow w/ anything over 39HP?
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