Old rider looking at Ninjettes

[rwp]

I'm not sure where to post this, but since I've been watching this board, I'll start here. Pardon the long explanation; it may put things in perspective, and maybe others have similar questions.

I'm 68, have been riding since 1968 and prefer light bikes. We've just moved from Atlanta to near Asheville, NC. So I have close to the best riding roads in the country within 5-10 minutes. I've done a lot of dual sporting, and had several mid-sized standards (Hawk GT, Ascot single, BMW 650 single, SV650). I have a 28 inch inseam so modest sized bikes are welcomed, and around here, sustained speed is not necessary or healthy.

So.....I've been intrigued by the small sporty bikes like the Ninjette, CB250/300, etc, and like lightened versions, cafe'd or street trackers. I started looking at these bikes when I saw a photo of the Blue Collar Bobbers cafe kit.

I've read a lot of build threads, and am looking for a pregen 250. However, I've seen references to "upgrading" with newgen parts, wheels mainly, but forks, shocks, etc. I can see that the pregen looks easier to modify, but can somebody give me an idea of the shortcomings of the newer bikes.

They do look like they would be more difficult to modify without major surgery, but technically look like good bikes.

Any comments are very welcomed.

[csmith12]

I own both, pregen and new gen. At a high level, the fundamentals of mods are the same. Forks and rear shock + wheels for tire options based on your goals for the bike + you.

You can't go wrong either way but if I was cafe'in a 250 base, I would go pregen, even though to get the better forks and swingarm, it's more expensive but worth it for the overall ride in the end.

What are you goals for a riding machine?

[rwp]

Good question. I enjoy riding mountain roads; had a weekend place in Blairsville, GA before moving up here. Up here, I'm 10 minutes from the Blue Ridge Parkway and 15 minutes from a stretch of NC 209 that some call the "Rattler", a bit like the Dragon but without the motor homes!

I like a reasonably spirited pace, but also like the idea of being able to get the most out of a smaller bike (or car for that matter). I'm not trying to loft the front wheel coming out of turns. My off road bike for many years was an XT225 with a few mods. Not fast in the woods but light and good handling.

So my goals are to have a light bike. Losing the full fairing and other bodywork is a positive for me as long as it doesn't start to look like a crash derelict. I like the lean look and function of conservative cafe's and some street trackers.

That's a lot of info, but may help. As I mentioned in my first post, I think there are probably a few folks out there with the same expectations.

[MrAtom]

fwiw I think the pregen is faster than the newgen? But don't quote me on that.

[pigp3n]

pregen cheap to buy and ride. go for it.
sonic springs for the forks for your weight.
new gen shock
naked it out and ride it like a supermoto.
Get a GPS though cause in that area you are gonna want to explore the unknown roads. Then when you get close to tired just hit the home button.

[FrugalNinja250]

The only real downside to the pregen is that gas tanks and plastics, especially the main, or upper, fairing, are very difficult to find in good shape and expensive as a result when you do. Every once in a while you might luck across a deal on that stuff, but it's pretty rare. If you do buy a pregen make sure the tank isn't rusted inside and hasn't been punctured by the use of too long bolts where the main fairing attaches to it. The bolt puncture issue is relatively common as Kawasaki used different lengths for the upper and lower fairing bolts that went into the brackets welded on the tank, and if someone mixed up the longer lower bolts and the shorter upper bolts the longer bolts would punch a hole in the tank behind the welded bracket. It wasn't until the last couple of years before the end of production of the pregen did they change to using the shorter bolts for both locations.

Valve adjustment on the pregen is finicky, screw adjusters and lock nuts, but if you get the special tools it goes much easier. The newgen uses bucket and shim which is more expensive due to shim purchase, and it requires breaking the cam chain and removing the camshafts to replace shims. The valve maintenance interval is longer for the newgen, 7,500 vs 6,000 for the pregen. The pregen is more likely to require adjustment unless you run the valves at the very loose end of the spec, the newgens from what I've heard don't need to be reshimmed most of the time. Body panel removal for routine maintenance is more involved on the newgen than the pregen.

The newgen uses radials in a harder to find small size, the pregen uses bias ply tires that have more options, particularly for commuter/touring types of tires that last longer. I run Kenda K671s on my pregen and typically get over 25K, for example.

The newgens have a somewhat more aggressive riding position, whereas the pregens are almost a standard in their ergos.

On power and torque, the pregens have a peakier power curve with not a lot happening (relatively speaking) below 6K RPM, but plenty of room above that to the 13K (more or less) redline to make use of the peakier curve. Throughout the years of production the pregen redline moved up and down. The newgen has a flatter torque curve but not as much power at peak and not as much overall IIRC. The newgen is also heavier than the pregen by a noticeable margin.

[rwp]

Wow! That's a world class comparison and some good caveats. Sounds like a pregen is my ideal. I prefer a less "road racer" crouch (short arms), and don't mind adjusting screw type valves.

There are quite a few 2006-2007's around here with few enough miles that the bodywork may never have been removed. They cost a bit of a premium but can be found in excellent shape.

I'll look for an 07 and follow pigp3n's suggestions regarding suspension. Looks like a newgen rear shock is pretty cheap on eBay.

Thanks.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by rwp

Wow! That's a world class comparison and some good caveats. Sounds like a pregen is my ideal. I prefer a less "road racer" crouch (short arms), and don't mind adjusting screw type valves.

There are quite a few 2006-2007's around here with few enough miles that the bodywork may never have been removed. They cost a bit of a premium but can be found in excellent shape.

I'll look for an 07 and follow pigp3n's suggestions regarding suspension. Looks like a newgen rear shock is pretty cheap on eBay.

Thanks.

The pregens hold their value fairly well with low mileage and good condition. They were the best (IMHO) starter bike because the dual-band power curve made it easier to practice and learn throttle control while still giving you potential 7 second 0-60 times by keeping the RPMs in the upper band. The relatively upright riding position is much more comfortable (though the saddle isn't for long rides until you get some butt-hardening), and for those who are very inseam-challenged it's fairly easy to lower the rear using a lowering link.

A note on gearing: If you're planning on lots of highway riding the bike will more than handle the speed, but note that oil consumption becomes noticeable if you spend a lot of time above 10K RPM. The stock gearing will get you to those RPMs at highway speeds. You can install new sprockets easily, JT is the cheap and quality brand and they're easily available on Amazon and ebay. The stock gearing is really low, so low that I normally was in 3rd by the time I got to the other side of the intersection, and getting on the freeway had me frequently trying for that phantom 7th gear shift. I went with a 15T front to start with and eventually took the rear all the way down from the stock 45T to 41 and am very happy with that combo.

I recommend EK O-ring chains, they last over 20K miles for me (would probably last longer if I actually cleaned them, I just hit them with lube every other fillup and call it done) and are usually found for a decent price on Amazon or ebay.

The first valve service interval is 500 miles, so the bodywork will almost certainly have been off, you can check the tank by pulling the top screws and looking in the hole for putty or a hole behind the bracket.

I'm currently at 81K on my 2006, bought with 2K on it back in '09, and though I find myself thinking about "upgrading" to a larger bike from time to time I still enjoy riding this one every day. It's gotten me everywhere I've wanted to go, both my daily commuting and multi-state rides around the southern US. I even use it for shopping; with the tank, tail, and saddle bags I can fit pretty much a whole shopping cart from CostCo on the bike.

[rwp]

Quick dumb question. I may be looking at a couple of bikes tomorrow and would like to inspect the fairing bolts vs. tank issue. What kind of fastener are they? Hex, Torx, Allen, etc?

BTW, this thead is a great primer on decision issues between the two models and things to look for. I hope it's doing some others good as well.

[reggae5]

Nice to see other older riders here to. ( I'm 72) One other thing the pregen I understand has a much more comfortable seat than the newgen and the 300 ( I ride the 300)

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by rwp

Quick dumb question. I may be looking at a couple of bikes tomorrow and would like to inspect the fairing bolts vs. tank issue. What kind of fastener are they? Hex, Torx, Allen, etc?

BTW, this thead is a great primer on decision issues between the two models and things to look for. I hope it's doing some others good as well.

They're Allen head bolts, 4mm. Look for fuel stains running down from the upper hole, smell for gasoline around that bolt. If the seller will let you pull the top bolts then do that and again smell for gas. Hopefully it'll have a full tank of gas, if it does then fuel will run out of the hole. Sometimes sellers will try to repair the hole by putting fuel tank repair putty in and you'll see it on the ends of the threads. It's not an issue on the '06 and '07 bikes assuming they still have the OEM bolts in place. These bikes are prone to vibrating bolts out if they're not properly tightened.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by reggae5

Nice to see other older riders here to. ( I'm 72) One other thing the pregen I understand has a much more comfortable seat than the newgen and the 300 ( I ride the 300)

The comfort is a relative thing, and a lot of the comfort comes getting riding experience on the seat. The first time I did an out of town ride, around 250 miles down to Houston, my butt cheeks were on fire. The last 100 miles or so I was alternating them on the seat, 10 miles one side, 10 the other. That ride was only 3 months after I started riding motorcycles. A few years later I did a 270 mile ride without any issues whatsoever. For my long rides I run a Corbin and use a padded tank bag to support my torso to reduce butt-weight. In that configuration I can ride indefinitely. A few years ago I rode one leg of my summer tour from Chattanooga, TN to Houston, TX by way of New Orleans. That leg was 850 miles and I did it in 14:20. The only comfort issue I had was the heat since it was the middle of summer.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rwp

BTW, this thead is a great primer on decision issues between the two models and things to look for. I hope it's doing some others good as well.

It is - but there are a few other areas that you might also want to review, if you want to understand what some folks have preferred in the other versions as well.

Pre-gen vs. New-gen thread:

Iron Ninjas!! Battle of the 250s!

300 vs. new-gen thread:

Picked up my new Ninja 300 this morning!

[rwp]

Further thanks for the comments. I've generally settled on a pre-gen model for a couple of reasons:
1) Appearance
2) Adaptability to being lightened somewhat and still look decent.
3) Initial weight advantage plus any pieces removed (I'm a 200 lb rider and like lighter bikes).

If all works out, I have identified an '07 with 5,200 miles owned by a multi-bike enthusiast who bought it for his daughter. If that falls through, plenty of others.

As soon as inspected and registered, will get new gen rear shock and .80 or .85 front springs. Then ridden for a bit before any meaningful changes. However I do have a Suzuki GS850 big chrome 7 inch headlight squirreled away.

[MAZ 80]

The pre-gen is definitely the better looking bike.
Everything else can be fixed.

[choneofakind]

Newgen has tons better tire choices. 16" bias ply tires on the pregen are the past. Other than that, pregen parts are plentiful and cheap. Not sure where Frugal is getting the idea that tires are hard to find in the newgen 17" sizes but okay. There's plenty of sticky tire options out there, and now it looks like there's more high mileage options as well.

Good news for you is the front end is a direct swap; the bearings are the same between generations so you can swap triples, forks, wheel, etc etc. Not sure about the speedo. The rear end is also a direct swap, so you can get a matching set of wheels/suspension.


The pregen looks classic, the newgen is bubbly and round, the 300 is modern and pointy. Since you're looking to go cafe racer, I'd take apart a pregen. However, the 300 has better fueling, fatter power all around, great gearbox, and I didn't notice any significant difference between the 300's lightness and the stock pregen's lightness, but that's just me. I also could not tell much difference between the stock pregen ergo's and the stock newgen ergo's; I've not ridden a 300 with stock bars/pegs.



Anyhow, looks like you got a bike found, tentatively. Let us know how it goes!

[spooph]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

The newgen uses bucket and shim which is more expensive due to shim purchase, and it requires breaking the cam chain and removing the camshafts to replace shims.

It most certainly does not require breaking the cam chain. The cam chain should never be "broken". If it's stretched, time to split the cases and remove the crank to replace with a new chain. This is the same for pre-gen and new-gen 250's.

Everything else was spot on.

Originally Posted by rwp

As soon as inspected and registered, will get new gen rear shock and .80 or .85 front springs.

Yes, the pregen will most certainly need new springs up front. Also look into the Racetech valve emulators. They were the single most important upgrade I did to my new-gen and since the "valving" of the pre-gen is the exact same design as the new-gen, any pre-gen will also benefit from it.

Based solely on the seat height I think you're on the right track with the pre-gen.

Welcome to the ninjette world! Some of the best and kindest riders ride 250's.

[FrugalNinja250]

I stand corrected on breaking the cam chain, previous engines I've worked on required that, the newgen apparently does not. However, there is a lot more work involved in checking/adjusting the valves on the newgen, far more than I first realized: http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n..._clearance.htm

After reading this I've decided not to get a newgen and stay with the pregens. I can adjust the pregen's valves in an afternoon, and that includes an oil/filter change and cleaning/reoiling the air filter, as well as a host of other minor maintenance items.

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by spooph

Yes, the pregen will most certainly need new springs up front. Also look into the Racetech valve emulators. They were the single most important upgrade I did to my new-gen and since the "valving" of the pre-gen is the exact same design as the new-gen, any pre-gen will also benefit from it.

Welcome to the ninjette world! Some of the best and kindest riders ride 250's.

I'm also a big fan of the Racetech emulators. One thing I would add. They recommend a 130mm oil level, a far cry from the 205mm the factory calls for. I suggest starting with something in between. It's a lot easier to add oil until you get it where you want it then it is to take oil out.

On a side note, if anyone is getting ready to do their forks, I just finished putting my forks back together and listed a couple things in the Marketplace.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

I stand corrected on breaking the cam chain, previous engines I've worked on required that, the newgen apparently does not. However, there is a lot more work involved in checking/adjusting the valves on the newgen, far more than I first realized: http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n..._clearance.htm

After reading this I've decided not to get a newgen and stay with the pregens. I can adjust the pregen's valves in an afternoon, and that includes an oil/filter change and cleaning/reoiling the air filter, as well as a host of other minor maintenance items.

Both designs have upsides and down sides.
@FrugalNinja250 - have you broken a cam chain on the new gen? I'm verifying my KB and if I'm wrong, I need to amend it.

I can do a new gen cam adjust in about 2.5hrs. It just requires more math than the pre-gen (and having a bunch of shims).

On the pre-gen you have to be accurate at holding the tappet (is that still the name?) still while tightening down the lock nut. This requires accuracy.

On the new-gen you have to be absolutely accurate on your measurements the first time around, or you'll have to remove the cams again (which isn't that big of a deal, you just have to do it again). Then there is the cylinder 1, exhaust valve cam reseat issue, but with patience, it too isn't much of a problem.

So really, it's all about what you are comfortable with. If you're familiar with rockers and tappets, go pre-gen. If you want to learn about shim and buckets, go new-gen.

OP - I still think due to ergonomics you're better off with a pre-gen though.

[choneofakind]

Are they really that different? Honestly, I never noticed a big difference on back to back stock pregen and newgen rides. Maybe I'm just not very sensitive to that type of thing?

[Alex]

I didn't either. The styling makes it look as if the riding position would be more different, but it's mostly an illusion. The bars are still plenty high and close to the rider on either bike.

http://cycle-ergo.com/ is always fun to play with, and it has the numbers for all of them. More knee-room on the new-gens, slight more forward lean (for the stock-sized rider)

Pre-gen:



new-gen:



300:



Those are just the default #'s, you can plug in your own measurements to see how they might vary.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by spooph

Both designs have upsides and down sides.
@FrugalNinja250 - have you broken a cam chain on the new gen? I'm verifying my KB and if I'm wrong, I need to amend it.

No, but I've had to on motors in other, older bikes. I've never worked on a newgen.

Originally Posted by spooph

On the pre-gen you have to be accurate at holding the tappet (is that still the name?) still while tightening down the lock nut. This requires accuracy.

Yeah, the fiddly part of the adjustment is keeping the screw from turning while tightening the locknut. The Kawasaki special tool is basically a hollow socket and handle that fits the nut and a screwdriver down the center of it to keep the screw from turning while tightening. Otherwise the screw turns some random amount while the nut is being tightened which requires loosening and twiddling the screw pretty often.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

No, but I've had to on motors in other, older bikes. I've never worked on a newgen.



Yeah, the fiddly part of the adjustment is keeping the screw from turning while tightening the locknut. The Kawasaki special tool is basically a hollow socket and handle that fits the nut and a screwdriver down the center of it to keep the screw from turning while tightening. Otherwise the screw turns some random amount while the nut is being tightened which requires loosening and twiddling the screw pretty often.

I'm familiar. Did them on my first bike, ZL-600B2 Eliminator plenty of times. Left me with the feeling it's not quite as accurate as shim and bucket.

[rwp]

Originally Posted by rwp

Further thanks for the comments. I

If all works out, I have identified an '07 with 5,200 miles owned by a multi-bike enthusiast who bought it for his daughter. If that falls through, plenty of others.

As soon as inspected and registered, will get new gen rear shock and .80 or .85 front springs.

Bought the above 2007 today. Actually 5800 miles. A few minor cosmetic flaws (very tiny dimple in tank, one plastic pin on left side cover broken, little else). Black with usual red flames. Paid $1800 which is a bit of a premium for this area, maybe by $200 or so, but bike has low miles, is mechanically perfect, and has been maintained by a fairly serious motorcycle enthusiast.
It has two new tires; good news is they are new; bad news is they are Dunlop (K330 on rear; K630 on front). They'll be fine for a while.

Test rode it for a few miles.... my reactions:

1) It's smaller than I remembered. Feels like a race bike. Will get a new gen rear shock, and if it's a bit taller, no problem.
2) Plenty of power for me. I didn't push it at all but even under 6-7000 rpm, it had good power.
3) Felt very stable. Not as much dive under braking as my SV650. But it will still get new front springs.

Immediate plans are simple: Change oil (have Rotella T6) and filter; maybe remove the red flames (not my style); order rear shock and front springs; and spend some time with it.

Thanks again for all the input.

[spooph]

Badass! Congrats! Hope to read many more stories about this bike and it's adventures with you!

[CC Cowboy]

You need to leave the flames. That's what will make you cool riding that sweet flaming machine.

flam·ing/ˈflāmiNG/
adjective
burning fiercely and emitting flames.
used for emphasis to express annoyance.
(of a gay man) having a manner or appearance regarded as stereotypically homosexual.

[ninjunk]

I look at all used motorcycles having a major service at 20,000 miles including fork seals, chain, sprockets, wheel bearings, valve adjustment, air filter, tires, brake fluid, brake pads, and any other small issues that turn up in those service procedures such as worn cables.

If you have to pay a shop to do all that you're looking at 1000 bucks worth of work or more.

So if you think of it that way, any motorcycle that is nearing its 20,k/$1000 service will have $1k taken off its value in practical terms.


Your bike, at 1800 dollars with 5000 miles, has at least 15,000 miles to go before needing that stuff, therefore 1800 seems like a pretty good value amortized over the next 15000 miles you ride it. Not to mention that finding these ninjas that haven't been crashed, dropped etc is pretty tough as people use them for starter bikes.



I think you'll find going to 15wt fork oil will greatly improve the front suspension for street riding, especially with a heavier rider. You can do that now and if it isn't 'enough' you can replace fork seals in a few thousand miles and put the emulators in.