Ecotrons Install Thread

[138]

Originally Posted by lgk

what did you use to ground the plugs?

the block?

Yes.

[lgk]

so its not firing at all now, or it fires but doesn't run?

[138]

Originally Posted by lgk

so its not firing at all now, or it fires but doesn't run?

Just cranks over but won't fire.

[138]

Everytime I turn the key to the on position the MIL light comes on for 3 seconds or so and turns off.

[lolibater]

every time I go to hook it up to read DTC's it turns off.

[lgk]

i can't believe the compression is only 25 on both cylinders....

what direction did you guys rotate the crank?

[138]

counter-clockwise

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Why would my MAP sensor be reading 1 bar, instead of 0, like in the youtube link?

MAP = Manifold absolute Pressure - means that a pure vacuum will read 0 and atmospheric pressure reads 1.0 Bar - 1 Bar = 14.7 psi or so. It should never get to zero with normal operation.

How the hell did we have at least moderately decent compression using the non-TDC adjustment method, but as soon as we switch to doing a TDC adjustment, we have little to no compression in either cyl?

I think flynjay has a point in that the rings are probably dry from all the cranking. Drop a teaspoon of oil in each spark plug hole and try the compression test again.

REDNECK FUEL PUMP TEST
Put the bike on the center stand and don't disturb it for a minute.
Carefully open the gas tank lid.
Using a flashlight, observe the fuel on the left side of the tank.
Turn key on and let fuel pump run.
The gas should be disturbed by the pump if its working right. You should see little waves and such. When it pumps over 3 bar, the pressure regulator returns the fuel to the tank. By seeing a return flow, you have verified adequate pressure.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lgk

i can't believe the compression is only 25 on both cylinders....

what direction did you guys rotate the crank?

The compression test is done with the starter. You can't really rotate it fast enough by hand.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

MAP = Manifold absolute Pressure - means that a pure vacuum will read 0 and atmospheric pressure reads 1.0 Bar - 1 Bar = 14.7 psi or so. It should never get to zero with normal operation.



I think flynjay has a point in that the rings are probably dry from all the cranking. Drop a teaspoon of oil in each spark plug hole and try the compression test again.

REDNECK FUEL PUMP TEST
Put the bike on the center stand and don't disturb it for a minute.
Carefully open the gas tank lid.
Using a flashlight, observe the fuel on the left side of the tank.
Turn key on and let fuel pump run.
The gas should be disturbed by the pump if its working right. You should see little waves and such. When it pumps over 3 bar, the pressure regulator returns the fuel to the tank. By seeing a return flow, you have verified adequate pressure.

So the MAP sensor should be reading 1 bar then? Why does the MAP reading in the youtube video show the reading at 0 then? After that the one in the video fluctuates, but never goes over 100kpa. Mine never even fluctuates when I try to crank.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The compression test is done with the starter. You can't really rotate it fast enough by hand.

i know this i thought they might have jumped time by rotating the crank backwards during the valve adjustment.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

So the MAP sensor should be reading 1 bar then? Why does the MAP reading in the youtube video show the reading at 0 then? After that the one in the video fluctuates, but never goes over 100kpa. Mine never even fluctuates when I try to crank.

it can't go over 100kpa.

if it did then you would actually be running boost.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I think flynjay has a point in that the rings are probably dry from all the cranking. Drop a teaspoon of oil in each spark plug hole and try the compression test again.

this, try the "wet" test

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

So the MAP sensor should be reading 1 bar then? Why does the MAP reading in the youtube video show the reading at 0 then? After that the one in the video fluctuates, but never goes over 100kpa. Mine never even fluctuates when I try to crank.

Based on what I see here, the MAP sensor should read 1 bar just sitting there and then go down during cranking and running. Didn't you say you could manually lower it by sucking on it? If so, then its working. Make sure you have the tube on the right place on the throttle body. I don't think there is an obvious wrong place to stick it, but just recheck it just to be sure. Maybe look at the tube to make sure its not rotten or something.

[lolibater]

we will throw a teaspoon of oil in and see what the compression reads.

Matt also wants us to see if the plug throws spark when we crank with the plug just hanging out, but not grounded on the block.


The tube for the MAP sensor is in the same place it's always been, in the same condition it has always been, so I can't really see an issue with that.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

we will throw a teaspoon of oil in and see what the compression reads.

Matt also wants us to see if the plug throws spark when we crank with the plug just hanging out, but not grounded on the block.


The tube for the MAP sensor is in the same place it's always been, in the same condition it has always been, so I can't really see an issue with that.

Are you sure you didn't misunderstand him? How is the plug going to spark with no ground? Didn't you already verify spark to the block?

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Are you sure you didn't misunderstand him? How is the plug going to spark with no ground? Didn't you already verify spark to the block?

Me: "We can pull out the spark plug with it connected to the wire, crank, and check that way?"

Matt: "Yes, as I said on the forum.
You need seal the holes with spare plugs.

Ecu dies not know the plugs are out. It will try to fire. That's what I want you to verify."




Yes we have verified spark on the block.

[138]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Are you sure you didn't misunderstand him? How is the plug going to spark with no ground? Didn't you already verify spark to the block?

The MAP sensor went UP when Loli sucked on the fitting. In the video the MAP sensor reads ZERO and then increases as the sound of the revvs increase, never reaching atmospheric pressure.

I'm not too sure what Matt from EcoTron means but basically he wants to see if the ECU controls the spark. Not by grounding the coil is what his words are. Here's the blatant and obvious truth, never before have I or Loli done a valve adjustment on a 250 Ninja, ever.

We never set the valves too tight so bending shouldn't be an issue, no matter what we did it was always on the loose side. No lock nuts, springs or anything have broken, atleast visibly. As you know we did a compression test when we had done the adjustments not on TDC, aka improperly and had compression. Once we do TDC we have a matching 25. Now the good news here is that they are within proper range lol. The bad news is obviously that's a very poor number!

I'm going to make a list of all of the recommendations you wonderful people have been throwing out and I'll try them all and report back.

[138]

Originally Posted by lgk

this, try the "wet" test

How do we get the oil in there without getting the entire cavity goopy with oil? Do you guys use a turkey baster or something?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Me: "We can pull out the spark plug with it connected to the wire, crank, and check that way?"

Matt: "Yes, as I said on the forum.
You need seal the holes with spare plugs.

Ecu dies not know the plugs are out. It will try to fire. That's what I want you to verify."




Yes we have verified spark on the block.

he thinks there is no spark.
probably trying to fool the ecu into the same conditions, by sealing off the motor with dummy plugs, so the map sensor reads actual vacuum.

do as he says and put your extra plugs in the motor, then check your real ones for spark.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by 138

How do we get the oil in there without getting the entire cavity goopy with oil? Do you guys use a turkey baster or something?

i use a hose,
turkey baster works as long as it fits.

[ecotrons]

There is some confustion between "grounding the plug" vs. "grounding the coil".

The spark plug installed is aways grounded, but it would not fire without high voltage. High voltage is from the ignition coil. Only by grounding the control wire of the ignition coil, can you generate high voltages. That's why I am saying "grounding the coil", not plug. ECU controls the coil, not plug.

I believe you grounded the ignition coil to generate sparks. You called grounding the plug.

What I want you guys to do is to pull out the plugs, seal the holes, crank the engine, "attached the plugs against the block" (this is missed), and see whethe the plug is giving sparks or not.

This is to verify the ECU is controlling the ignition coil during crank.

[138]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

There is some confustion between "grounding the plug" vs. "grounding the coil".

The spark plug installed is aways grounded, but it would not fire without high voltage. High voltage is from the ignition coil. Only by grounding the control wire of the ignition coil, can you generate high voltages. That's why I am saying "grounding the coil", not plug. ECU controls the coil, not plug.

I believe you grounded the ignition coil to generate sparks. You called grounding the plug.

What I want you guys to do is to pull out the plugs, seal the holes, crank the engine, "attached the plugs against the block" (this is missed), and see whethe the plug is giving sparks or not.

This is to verify the ECU is controlling the ignition coil during crank.

So you do want me to ground the plug against the block right? Put spares in the motor, put the caps on the main set, ground the plugs - check for spark? Correct?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by 138

So you do want me to ground the plug against the block right? Put spares in the motor, put the caps on the main set, ground the plugs - check for spark? Correct?

Correct.
The key is to let ECU control the ignition coil. Everything should be same as a real crank, except your plug is outside against the block.

Log data for this test.

[138]

Originally Posted by lgk

i use a hose,
turkey baster works as long as it fits.

I've got a hose, this is coming up.

[138]

Update: ECU test recommended by Matt worked properly and the spark plugs fired. The fuel pump made little tiny ripples in the tank, I almost didn't even notice them.

[138]

Matt:

I'm looking at the read out from the data log and I'm curious as to why the error condition for the MAP sensor hasn't been met. I'm obviously not criticising or anything but I'd like to make sense of these numbers. Thanks!

[ecotrons]

Here are some trouble shooting tips good for everybody:

> We know there is spark in the cylinder for sure.
> Now we need to know fuel is correctly injected!
>
> So similarly, you remove the fuel rail together with the injector,
> seal 2 holes on the sleeves.
>
> And crank the engine, everything is same, except you are injecting
> fuel into air (pionting to a cloth, no fire please)
>
> Check you get speedy misty fuel spraying out.
>
> This is some work, to remove the fuel rail. 2 bolts to be removed from
> the injector sleeves.

See, EFI trouble shooting is also visible, not so mystic.

[138]

Isn't there an easier way?

[lolibater]

We need 4 things to start the bike:

1. Compression
2. Fuel
3. Spark
4. Air

We have eliminated Spark and Air as the issue.

Possible fuel issue variables:
A. fuel filter too big (using Fram G1000)
B. fuel tubing we bought it too flimsy and not for high pressure
C. The fuel pump has been damaged or is malfunctioning, not providing proper pressure to the injectors
D. The injectors themselves are bad

possible compression issue variables:
A. improperly adjusted valves
B. bad piston rings

Is there anything that I am missing guys? We are trying to basically figure out what still needs to be tested, as we are getting caught up in all this data flying around.

Our plan is to attempt to eliminate the compression issue first. Our next step is to try the teaspoon of oil and then a compression check again.

Some questions:
Should I change that fuel filter?
Should I change my fuel tubing?
How can I tell if the fuel pump is bad, or not supplying correct pressure to the injectors?

Is any of this answered by any of the ProCal data?

[n4mwd]

For the oil, I was suggesting using a oil can squirter with flexible neck and just squirt it in. You could also probably get away with a thin oil like PBBlaster (not wd40) that comes with a squirt straw you can get in there. Something like this:


But a turkey baster and flexible tube is OK too. For stuff like this its really handy to have disposable syringes. I use them all the time for injecting oil and grease in various parts of the bike.

I propose a new test. Remove the return quick disconnect and see if you can get fuel to run into a cup when the fuel pump is running. The return is what was probably making the little waves, but maybe not. It still isn't running.

Just so we are clear, the main line goes from the tank to the filter to the fuel pump. The return comes from the pressure regulator and goes back to the tank, right?

Just for reference, below is the pressure regulator:


The return goes from the output of the regulator to a Tee to the tank.

We have tried just about everything so far so I think its a bad idea for us to assume anything about what you did or didn't do. Don't be offended if our questions seem a bit retarded or obvious.

[lolibater]

Not offended at all, just frustrated at my bike, definitely not you guys hahaha. You've all been very helpful.

We have a little hand pump that we're used to bleed the brakes, we're going to put a teaspoon of oil in there and pump it out into the hole.

I'm going over to @138's house on saturday morning to do some more testing too. He will most likely have done the oil and compression test by then. He can also tell us how it's all wired/tubed up.

[lgk]

i'm thinking the only to tell if a fuel pump/regulator is bad is a fuel pressure gauge.

the easiest way to test them is to see if they spray the priming amount after dismounting them from the throttle.

it should spray a fine mist.

[lolibater]

the pump itself should spray?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

the pump itself should spray?

no the whole assembly, with everything hooked up. tank to injector.
we are looking to see if the injector sprays priming fuel.

i believe it best to start from the end and work backwards.
this way you cover everything.

[lolibater]

Oh ok. I got you. Where can I get a fuel pressure gauge, and what kind should I get? All I can find are the in-dash kind.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Oh ok. I got you. Where can I get a fuel pressure gauge, and what kind should I get? All I can find are the in-dash kind.

i wouldn't get one yet, see if the fuel sprays out first.

if it does then we can move onto other things, like the compression issue.

[lolibater]

So we're pulling out just the injectors, or the whole system?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by lolibater

So we're pulling out just the injectors, or the whole system?

just the injectors, and rail (if you have one)
leave everything else connected, and cover the injector ports in the throttle with ducktape.

then turn the key to on, the fuel pump should make noise and the injectors should spray out.
do like matt said and place a towel near them to spray into.

i'm hoping we don't have to reset the ecu like last time.

[n4mwd]

Just sayin, since you have the old throttle body you can just remove each plastic injector one at a time and wiggle it out. A single screw holds it in. You don't have to remove the whole throttle body. Doing that may be a major pain depending on your configuration.