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Old April 23rd, 2018, 04:55 PM   #1
MCPhotographer
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Cam Chain - Is this one bad?

I did this whole write up about the work I've done on my bike but it's saying that moderator approval is necessary so I must have done it incorrectly. That was a few days ago, so I'm posting again. Can someone familiar with this issue look at my video and tell me if this cam chain is stretched and needs replacing? And does anyone know of a ninjette thread that shows a replacement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ljecz4euc

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 23rd, 2018, 05:25 PM   #2
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If your tensioner is not tensioning in the video, the chain will look goofy as the valves make the cam difficult to turn (chain driving cam), and then try to jump ahead (cam driving chain), alternating. I'd adjust the tensioner correctly and then rotate the engine and watch the chain.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 08:25 PM   #3
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Krieger manual tensioner has been installed as per Mark Krieger. In the video you can see the chain as it turn with no tension and with tension applied. There is a tight spot in the engine rotation. Everything I've read indicates the chain is done and needs replacing.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 08:35 PM   #4
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OK, I understood you to say the tensioner was applying zero tension, which is why I said what I did.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 08:42 PM   #5
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In the video I turn it both with/and without so that the viewer can see the play in the chain
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Old April 24th, 2018, 05:04 AM   #6
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Are your spark plugs removed? If not, when you say "tight spot" it may just be that a cylinder is under compression.

Can chains are typically not found to be bad in this manner. Instead, you must measure the distance between the links as described in the service manual. DO you have one?
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Old April 24th, 2018, 10:23 AM   #7
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Spark plugs are out. So the tight, loose, tight condition wouldn't indicate a stretched chain? The condition exists whether or not the tensioner is applied.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 03:57 PM   #8
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re: moderator approval, I don't see anything in the queue to approve? It's not triggering on anything you did wrong, it just is a little stricter for new users who put many pics/links into their threads, as it's a good indicator of spam. It shouldn't lose your work though, just hit submit and I'll approve each of them as soon as I see them pop up in the queue. The filter gets much more lax after a few dozen posts.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 04:15 PM   #9
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I would except, like an idiot, I didn't save a copy. Which is unfortunate because I spent about an hour on it. Thanks for looking for me though.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 05:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCPhotographer View Post
Spark plugs are out. So the tight, loose, tight condition wouldn't indicate a stretched chain? The condition exists whether or not the tensioner is applied.


I'd guess that the chain is ok, and the tight, loose, tight is the cams opening the valves. get your tension set right and turn while watching the cams opening the valves.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 07:50 PM   #11
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I'm not following what you're saying here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z1R rider View Post
I'd guess that the chain is ok, and the tight, loose, tight is the cams opening the valves. get your tension set right and turn while watching the cams opening the valves.
The Krieger manual tensioner says turn it in finger tight until it can't be turned further. Mark said to do the same thing with a wrench till it hit resistance. I did this but the rattle remained. When I turn the engine over it turns easily until it hits the "tight" spot. You can see this in the video. It happens regardless of whether there is tension or it's backed out.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 08:07 PM   #12
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Yes it's the same regardless of chain-tension because resistance comes from cam-lobes pushing on valve-springs; which doesn't change. There are two variables you need to examine:

1. tensioner-health vs.
2. cam-chain wear

You need to isolate each one independently to figure out what your problem is. Chain-wear is easy, measure distance between links and calculate stretch %.

Once that's been eliminated OR implicated as out-of-spec, THEN you can go on to more difficult troubleshooting of tensioner.
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Old April 24th, 2018, 10:55 PM   #13
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Ok. So this is a brand new Krieger Manual Chain Tensioner. I installed it as per the instructions and the advice of Mark Krieger. If it's not in spec then it needs to be replace, but let's assume my chain is within spec. What more can I do to the tensioner that I'm not doing or haven't already done? Probably a better question to ask is "Based on what you're saying if this tightness in the revolution of the engine is caused by the cam lobes on the valve springs and not a worn cam chain, is this a problem, and if so what is the remedy?"
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Old April 25th, 2018, 06:18 AM   #14
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Maybe send the video (link) to Mark Krieger and see what advice he offers.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 06:24 AM   #15
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Pull the valve cover and watch the cams as you rotate the crank.

I'm thinking you will see when the lobes are contacting the rockers and opening the valves it will get harder to rotate the engine - then easier as they close.

I don't think you have a damaged cam chain.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 07:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCPhotographer View Post
Ok. So this is a brand new Krieger Manual Chain Tensioner. I installed it as per the instructions and the advice of Mark Krieger. If it's not in spec then it needs to be replace, but let's assume my chain is within spec. What more can I do to the tensioner that I'm not doing or haven't already done? Probably a better question to ask is "Based on what you're saying if this tightness in the revolution of the engine is caused by the cam lobes on the valve springs and not a worn cam chain, is this a problem, and if so what is the remedy?"
Pull out ruler, measure chain and do the easier test first. It's a binary black & white, all-or-nothing, yes/no answer to all your problems.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Maybe send the video (link) to Mark Krieger and see what advice he offers.
Mark has looked at a number of my videos and been more than accommodating for a $35 part. I'm sure I've annoyed him enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Pull the valve cover and watch the cams as you rotate the crank.

I'm thinking you will see when the lobes are contacting the rockers and opening the valves it will get harder to rotate the engine - then easier as they close.

I don't think you have a damaged cam chain.
My understanding is that they cycle opening and closing the valves at different intervals (hence the timing) which would lead me to believe that they would get tight-loose-tight-loose in a regular interval. Not tight throughout the majority of me cycling the engine with only a small stretch that is tight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Pull out ruler, measure chain and do the easier test first. It's a binary black & white, all-or-nothing, yes/no answer to all your problems.
Measured it. Yup it's in spec. Now what?
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #18
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What happens if you put the OEM tensioner in? IF your chain is within spec, it is not the chain causing the issue. These chains are bathed in oil so they will not "wear" like the drive chain.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 01:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCPhotographer View Post
My understanding is that they cycle opening and closing the valves at different intervals (hence the timing) which would lead me to believe that they would get tight-loose-tight-loose in a regular interval. Not tight throughout the majority of me cycling the engine with only a small stretch that is tight.
.
.
.
Measured it. Yup it's in spec. Now what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgentz View Post
What happens if you put the OEM tensioner in? IF your chain is within spec, it is not the chain causing the issue. These chains are bathed in oil so they will not "wear" like the drive chain.
Noise may have multiple sources. If you've done 2 out of 27 (cam chain & tensioner), then move onto other causes:

1. valve-clearance done and all within spec?
2. measure rod-bearing clearances
3. compression check?
4. piston to cylinder clearances
5. clutch-roller play?
6. starter ring-gear loose? it has brass sleeve bearing that can wear out.
7.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 06:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
From what I've read here and on the other forum it seems that cam chain wear (and resulting stretch) is highly variable from one bike to another. But it definitely happens.

Also, when the cam chain wears and stretches it does it in spots along its length rather than uniformly throughout the entire chain (this is confirmed by a few forum members who've measured their worn chains). This causes it to go tight-loose-tight-loose as it goes around the drive gear and the camshaft gears. The tight-loose-tight-loose situation causes it to "lash" at the cam chain tensioner, making a knocking noise.

It's not surprising that the cam chain tensioner doesn't stand up well to this abuse. The cam chain tensioner was designed to maintain proper tension on the cam chain in response to engine accelerations and decelerations, which happen (relatively) smoothly and slowly compared to the high-frequency of the tight-loose-tight-loose lashing effect of a partially worn and stretched cam chain.

Bottom line: I believe the engine problems people regularly attribute to the cam chain tensioner are actually related to or entirely caused by an irregularly worn and (as a result of that wear) stretched cam chain. So replacing the cam chain tensioner without dealing with (i.e. replacing) the worn cam chain is pointless.
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