ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > 2013 - 2017 Ninja 300 > 2013 - 2017 Ninja 300 Tech Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 1st, 2016, 12:14 PM   #1
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Exclamation new piston rings without honing

Curious to hear some opinions.

When would it ever be acceptable to install new piston rings and NOT hone the cylinder walls?
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote




Old September 1st, 2016, 12:19 PM   #2
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
IMO, never. With the proper tools it only takes a matter of minutes. With a hone and a drill and a smidge of oil, it'll take you 5 minutes or less to do both cylinders.

I suppose if the cylinders were new enough and still had cross hatching, you'd be fine.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 12:52 PM   #3
Racer x
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Racer x's Avatar
 
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
It is not a general practice.

The honing is to remove any glazing and help the rings seat. It takes a simple tool available at an auto parts store and oil. Plus a drill. Then you will want to clean the cylinders and wash and scrub them with soap and water. Then IMMEDIATELY coat the bore with oil. They will flash rust befor your eyes. This is all done after you clean the base and head gasket serface.
You want to get all the grit out of the cylinders bores after the honing. Otherwise it will grind into the ring gruve and stick the rings.

I am guessing someone can post up some photos of a cross hatch pattern you want to achieve.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile
Worlds fastest 250 ninja
Racer x is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:21 PM   #4
bruce71198
ninjette.org sage
 
bruce71198's Avatar
 
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012

Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2

Posts: 998
The 300 has a nikasil cylinder wall finish less prone to flash rusting in my experience. Also it can be a bitch to hone due to the hardness of the finish. Luckily there is a motorcycle machine shop 2 miles from me that has always honed them for me on a honing bar. Something about a diamond stone?
bruce71198 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #5
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
i agree, NEVER. i am also aware of the process, and how/why this is done, mechanic by trade. apparently the mechanic at the dealer doesnt agree. i picked my bike up today, they replaced crankshaft, 1 rod, 1 piston, 2 rings(so they say), and head milled(so they say). i asked tons of questions they are probably not used to hearing, one of them was did they hone the cylinders. when he said no, i said why not, how are the rings supposed to seat? he got all defensive and said the mechanic that rebuilt this has 30yrs experience and he said it didnt need a hone. i call BS, it takes an extra 10 minutes since the block was already apart(so they say), and any experienced engine builder would home them, its a critical part of block preparation for the build.

what i think happened was that they disconnected the one rod from the crank, and let the piston/ring just dangle in the block since there was no visible damage and they were too lazy to ring it and hone both cylinders lol.

anyways, i told them after i break it in and do a compression test it will be coming back for another rebuild it the numbers are low. i asked him what a healthy engine(ninja 300) psi should be, he had no clue. i said around 200? he said lmk go check. he came out 5 minutes later and said they dont do compression test and they dont have the specs, they do leakdown tests. i said BULLSHIT, ill find out the numbers on my own, and if you dont do compression test, why the **** do they charge for them in all their service packages that are posted right there on the ****ing wall?

only reason anyone other than myself is working on this bike is because WARRANTY.

notes: bike spun rod at 1265 miles. 2013 ninja 300
will seat new rings over the weekend after this hurricane passes. here i come hard break-in
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 02:07 PM   #6
Ninjinsky
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Ninjinsky's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic)

Posts: A lot.
All this paranoid hostility serves no useful purpose and just gets mechanics backs up. At that low mileage I doubt it needs honing but any goodwill you had with that workshop will be in the rag bin by now.
Bet it runs fine and compression will be within spec.
Ninjinsky is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old September 1st, 2016, 02:16 PM   #7
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjinsky View Post
All this paranoid hostility serves no useful purpose and just gets mechanics backs up. At that low mileage I doubt it needs honing but any goodwill you had with that workshop will be in the rag bin by now.
Bet it runs fine and compression will be within spec.
paranoid, no. remember i have that warranty. hostility, maybe a little.

you say "at that low mileage". how many miles do you think it takes to seat rings

i could care less about that shop, the service manager was a dbag, and it was like pulling teeth to get any info on what exactly they were doing to MY bike. not to mention i caught him in a few lies over the month it took them to do an 8.4hr job
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 02:32 PM   #8
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
This is the second 300 I've heard of that spun a rod bearing. The other one is a member here too and it crapped out on a track day.

Any TSB's or anything out for it?
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 02:44 PM   #9
Racer x
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Racer x's Avatar
 
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
Let me find out about nikasil. I am not reall up to speed with it and did not realize you had a 300.
If there is a good cross hatch pattern and in some cases that might be OK. I am only
Guessing but I can see the nickel on the cylinder and cast iron rings being good to make a deal.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile
Worlds fastest 250 ninja
Racer x is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:00 PM   #10
Ninjinsky
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Ninjinsky's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ии View Post
you say "at that low mileage". how many miles do you think it takes to seat rings
I'd say around 500 before you can really let go. I would think the honing marks will still be there from new at 1250 miles. Best do an oil change after 250 or so.
I would advise against a "hard break in over the weekend" It doesn't work that way. With rings it is more about initially keeping piston speed down than throttle loading.
The spinning rods is a serious sounding weakness. A recall would be very expensive for Kawasaki since there are so many ninjettes. If they can pin the problem down to a narrow window of engine production numbers then they might do it, if it is a general problem don't hold your breath.
What were the symptoms? so that other owners can minimise damage if it happens to them.
Ninjinsky is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:17 PM   #11
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
This is the second 300 I've heard of that spun a rod bearing. The other one is a member here too and it crapped out on a track day.

Any TSB's or anything out for it?
i initially suspected a broken rod bolt, like this
https://is.gd/FVQZaO
also drained a cup full of oil before i dropped thebike off, there were chunks(8mm or so) or metal, not flakes. if it did indeed spin the bearing, it was because of the rod bolt stretching or backing its way out.

what do you mean tsb's or anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjinsky View Post
I'd say around 500 before you can really let go. I would think the honing marks will still be there from new at 1250 miles. Best do an oil change after 250 or so.
I would advise against a "hard break in over the weekend" It doesn't work that way. With rings it is more about initially keeping piston speed down than throttle loading.
The spinning rods is a serious sounding weakness. A recall would be very expensive for Kawasaki since there are so many ninjettes. If they can pin the problem down to a narrow window of engine production numbers then they might do it, if it is a general problem don't hold your breath.
What were the symptoms? so that other owners can minimise damage if it happens to them.
hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.

there were no symptoms, it happened really fast. i was a few blocks from home, engine lost power and started to vibrate. i shut it down and coasted home. tried to start it, it did not kick over, sounded like a dead battery. tried 15 mins later, it kicked over and i heard loud banging, and from experience, i immediately thought connecting rod. boy was i right
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:23 PM   #12
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ии View Post
i initially suspected a broken rod bolt, like this
https://is.gd/FVQZaO
also drained a cup full of oil before i dropped thebike off, there were chunks(8mm or so) or metal, not flakes. if it did indeed spin the bearing, it was because of the rod bolt stretching or backing its way out.

what do you mean tsb's or anything?


hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.

there were no symptoms, it happened really fast. i was a few blocks from home, engine lost power and started to vibrate. i shut it down and coasted home. tried to start it, it did not kick over, sounded like a dead battery. tried 15 mins later, it kicked over and i heard loud banging, and from experience, i immediately thought connecting rod. boy was i right
TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.

It's a list of common failure items on a vehicle or particular things for a mechanic to look for. Like, noise coming from front right, common failure noted is defective driveshaft or something. Very handy when shopping for vehicles.

Just google 2013 Scion XB TSB for example to see what I mean.

https://www.automd.com/tsb/toyota_m/scion-xb_mm/

FWIW, I don't do hard break ins but I'm not easy on them either. Plenty of people do short dyno break ins on motorcycles and then take them to the track. I wouldn't flog it but you don't have to hold back. Every vehicle I've owned new or rebuilt the motor for has been driven like that. I get ya.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:27 PM   #13
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.

It's a list of common failure items on a vehicle or particular things for a mechanic to look for. Like, noise coming from front right, common failure noted is defective driveshaft or something. Very handy when shopping for vehicles.

Just google 2013 Scion XB TSB for example to see what I mean.

https://www.automd.com/tsb/toyota_m/scion-xb_mm/

FWIW, I don't do hard break ins but I'm not easy on them either. Plenty of people do short dyno break ins on motorcycles and then take them to the track. I wouldn't flog it but you don't have to hold back. Every vehicle I've owned new or rebuilt the motor for has been driven like that. I get ya.
no tsb's, just recalls for ecu and front brake caliper interference. only thing that seems to be the problem is the weak rods/rod bolts lol
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:29 PM   #14
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ии View Post
no tsb's, just recalls for ecu and front brake caliper interference. only thing that seems to be the problem is the weak rods/rod bolts lol
I'm not sure what an acceptable failure rate is for a part like that but the 300's seem to be a bit on the high side like the previous generation R6.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:39 PM   #15
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
It would be interesting to see if the torque spec for the rod bolts changed between 2013-2016 in the factory manual. That would tell a little bit of a story.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 03:59 PM   #16
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447

https://youtu.be/bLQfZsmQb7]" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube.
watch from 5:10.
this is the exact same thing that happened to me.

3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2016, 05:07 PM   #17
Ninjinsky
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Ninjinsky's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ии View Post
hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.
Uneven high areas that have not yet worn smooth generate hot spots because the loads are not evenly distributed The higher the speed the more likely temperatures reached at those high points will be enough to burn through the very thin oil film on the bore fuse the metal (seize)
Look, it's your bike and your attitude, if you want to run it in by caning it, do what you want, I'm outta here.
Good day sir.
Ninjinsky is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old September 1st, 2016, 05:17 PM   #18
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
It would be interesting to see if the torque spec for the rod bolts changed between 2013-2016 in the factory manual. That would tell a little bit of a story.
either this, or a change in rod bolt/nut. most likely just a tq spec
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 05:55 AM   #19
Dave Wolfe
CCS Amateur #501
 
Dave Wolfe's Avatar
 
Name: Dave
Location: Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2015

Motorcycle(s): '09 250 SE 'Booger'

Posts: 406
Same rod bolts between the 250s and 300s. Newgen 250 calls for 20 ft lbs torque. 2013 300 manual says .15-.25mm of bolt stretch, or 89 in lbs plus another 120 degrees. Not sure what the newer 300 fsm says.

Last futzed with by Dave Wolfe; September 2nd, 2016 at 07:18 AM.
Dave Wolfe is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 05:59 AM   #20
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
Same rod bolts between the 250s and 300s. Newgen 250 calls for 20 ft lbs torque. 2013 manual says .15-.25mm of bolt stretch, or 89 in lbs plus another 120 degrees. Not sure what the newer 300 fsm says.
20ft/lbs seems awfully low for any connecting rods bolt. are you sure thats right?

no wonder they back off, i can tighten them that tight with my fingers. rod bolts must be toothpicks if thats all the tq they take.
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:16 AM   #21
Flying
ninjette.org sage
 
Name: -
Location: somewhere cold
Join Date: Jun 2013

Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250

Posts: 596
Blog Entries: 1
300 manual specs 10 Nm and then 120 degrees or 0.15-0.25 mm bolt stretch.

They're basically the same.
Flying is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:18 AM   #22
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying View Post
300 manual specs 10 Nm and then 120 degrees or 0.15-0.25 mm bolt stretch.

They're basically the same.
are these rod bolts/nuts made out of aluminum? lol. obviously they dont take tq. the aluminum valve cover bolting into my aluminum head on my audi takes more tq
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:22 AM   #23
Flying
ninjette.org sage
 
Name: -
Location: somewhere cold
Join Date: Jun 2013

Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250

Posts: 596
Blog Entries: 1
They're torque to yield. Not very tough at all. Probably cheaper to produce though.
Flying is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:27 AM   #24
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying View Post
They're torque to yield. Not very tough at all. Probably cheaper to produce though.
almost all important engine bolts(at least on the euro cars i wrenched on) are TTY. front crankshaft, front cam pulley bolt, head bolts, crank mains, rod bolts, pressure plate, some suspension bolts, etc, they are tough as nails
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:49 AM   #25
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Central North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ии View Post
20ft/lbs seems awfully low for any connecting rods bolt. are you sure thats right?

no wonder they back off, i can tighten them that tight with my fingers. rod bolts must be toothpicks if thats all the tq they take.
You think that's bad? My 1967 289 ford V8's factory spec for the big end rod caps is 18 lb-ft! I got SPS bolts and torqued to a stretch spec, which got them up in the 20s. They're 5/16" diameter bolts.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:07 AM   #26
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
You think that's bad? My 1967 289 ford V8's factory spec for the big end rod caps is 18 lb-ft! I got SPS bolts and torqued to a stretch spec, which got them up in the 20s. They're 5/16" diameter bolts.
i would expect a beefier bolt/nut combo on something that revs so high. i guess im just used to wrenching on engines that used 3/8" arp hardware, a whole other ball game. i have never rebuilt a bottom end with stock rods, always forged w/arp hardware, its cheaper, and stronger that way
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:25 AM   #27
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Central North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
In general, the stock 289s of that era were not high revving or high output. Mine's a 4-barrel and rated at 210hp, at a time when that was crankshaft hp on a dyno under ideal conditions. It's a marine conversion, with the original hp rating at 4,400 rpm.

The Ninja 250's pistons and rods are a small fraction of the weight of the 289 Ford's, so it's not surprising to me that the rod bolt torque spec is not high.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:28 AM   #28
Dave Wolfe
CCS Amateur #501
 
Dave Wolfe's Avatar
 
Name: Dave
Location: Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2015

Motorcycle(s): '09 250 SE 'Booger'

Posts: 406
Edit - my earlier post re torque spec was for the 2013 300 manual. I left the "300" part out.
The specs are whats in the FSM's. The 250 spec came from an '08 ex 250 FI FSM. Its pretty easy to find one for download.
Dave Wolfe is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:22 AM   #29
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
In general, the stock 289s of that era were not high revving or high output. Mine's a 4-barrel and rated at 210hp, at a time when that was crankshaft hp on a dyno under ideal conditions. It's a marine conversion, with the original hp rating at 4,400 rpm.

The Ninja 250's pistons and rods are a small fraction of the weight of the 289 Ford's, so it's not surprising to me that the rod bolt torque spec is not high.
sorry, i was talking about the 300 revving high
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:28 AM   #30
Racer x
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Racer x's Avatar
 
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile
Worlds fastest 250 ninja
Racer x is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:32 AM   #31
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
^^^^ many small engines are like that. Some models of John Deer and Cub Cadet lawn tractor are just the same.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:42 AM   #32
cuong-nutz
RIP Alex
 
cuong-nutz's Avatar
 
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011

Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
I can confirm said confirmation too. The guy who does my machine work says the same thing.
__________________________________________________
HalfFast Racing Team
Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days
cuong-nutz is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:00 AM   #33
3ии
ninjette.org guru
 
3ии's Avatar
 
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300

Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders.
so disregard the "you should not hone nikasil cylinders"
3ии is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:15 AM   #34
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
It's cool we are all learning some things there.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:24 AM   #35
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
For the two strokes we used to race that had Nikasil liners, we used to use ScotchBrite pads whenever we put a new ring in them. A few swipes would leave some scratches in it for the new ring to seat on.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old September 2nd, 2016, 03:33 PM   #36
subxero
dirty boy
 
subxero's Avatar
 
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012

Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore??

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
^ this

In the off road world where top end rebuilds are way more common scotchBrite is a very common method used on the coated cylinders
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning

I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once.
subxero is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old December 22nd, 2016, 09:03 AM   #37
Mohawk
ninjette.org guru
 
Mohawk's Avatar
 
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800

Posts: 438
It's not required to hone Nikasil bores, infact due to the thickness of Nikasil (or equivilent) applied, it should generally be avoided. Most Two strokes use Nikasil bores & they get new pistons & rings on a fairly regular schedule, no honing required unless the bore is damaged, & if it is then it usually needs an oversize and replating.

Honing is an OLD technique designed for use on OLD tech cast iron liners like those in the pregen & newgen 250's. I've rebuilt loads of 4 stroke bike engines in the past with new pistons & rings without honing if the bore was in good condition. Just be gentle with the initial break in runs. Never burned any oil or lost compression, nor damaged any rings that way.

YMMV
Mohawk is offline   Reply With Quote


Old February 6th, 2022, 08:46 PM   #38
Bob KellyIII
Retired motorcycle Mc.
 
Bob KellyIII's Avatar
 
Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc & 2021 CSC RX4 450cc

Posts: A lot.
this is very interesting to me as I have always used a stone hone in all the cylinders I have had off.... weather they needed it or not ! (even re using old rings)
putting those cross hatches in the cylinder really helps seat the rings...
but I have read where these new coatings honing is ill advised because of the coating because it is only a few microns thick if you hone it you remove the coating..... so that leaves me to wonder how long this thin coating will actually last...... pistons and rings really do ware down the cylinder wall fairly fast
and I would guess that within 2000 miles that coating would be completely gone with no hopes of finding any trace of it left..... even IF it is as hard as they say ! with that in mind how many miles do You guys think the coating would last on a cylinder ??? personally I would give it the benefit of the doubt and give it a maximum of 5,000 miles and then it is gone.... from brand new.
so if you have more miles on the machine than that I would think HONING would be a good thing
.... Now I am sure many of you will quote the manufacturers bragging of the coating will last 100,000 miles but do you really think they checked that with mileage on the road ? no they estimated it by the hardness ware of a normal cylinder and the new hardness of the coated cylinder.... which gives a really false impression of it's longevity !!!
....Bob...
__________________________________________________
Its too late when you've gone too far !
Bob KellyIII is offline   Reply With Quote


Old February 7th, 2022, 01:22 AM   #39
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T EX250F-street Ninja250R-race CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR VFR750F

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
These composite coatings simply do not wear like old cast iron bores. That's why there's no reason to hone them. I've replaced rings & pistons on 2T dirt bikes over 10x with Nikasil bores with no honing needed (NiCom in U.S.). The surfaces are easily 10x stronger than cast-iron. Just look up strengths of nickel-steel alloys, they are tough! Further alloying makes them indestructible really.

Similarly, '80s Porsche water-cooled engines started using Alusil, a hypereutecic alloy first used in Chevy Vega (Reynolds 390). It is made with +21% silicon embedded in aluminium. The cylinder surface is prepped just like iron bores to working size. Then final etching/lapping phase is done at end to remove aluminium from between silicon crystals at surface. This leaves tough silicon cylinder surface with pores to hold oil. Many engines having +200K miles when rebuilt, have no measurable wear on cylinders. Porsche's service manual states to not hone and just replace rings and put back together. Iron-coated pistons are needed to match toughness of these silicon bores.

I actually rebuilt one such engine starting at 250K-miles with just new rings. It lasted 2 racing seasons at double factory boost (+450bhp) with no problems. Only blew headgasket because I got greedy and turned up boost just before start of Open Track Challenge without proper dyno tuning. Tore it apart and replaced headgasket overnight in parking lot of Willow Springs to finish event and it went another 2-years without any problems. That's when I rebuilt it... again no wear could be measured; so just valve job; rings and and bearings... good as new!

Honda's silicon-carbide MMC cylinders are even tougher! Not even possible to hone them as surface is tougher than any boring-bar or honing stone available. These engines have easily gone 400K mile before needing rebuild. Again, no measurable wear on cylinders, so just new rings and bearings are needed.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_industry#pf3
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ication_detail
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf
http://lnengineering.com/files/2019-...er-Systems.pdf

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 7th, 2022 at 08:08 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old February 7th, 2022, 01:37 AM   #40
Bob KellyIII
Retired motorcycle Mc.
 
Bob KellyIII's Avatar
 
Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc & 2021 CSC RX4 450cc

Posts: A lot.
Geez that's amazing ! i guess the new tech is working then ! wow !
that is amazing !....
i am really surprised it works so well ! because at best all they do it spray on a coating and bake it ...I know they did that for ceramic coatings ... kind'a makes you wonder what else they have come up with that hasn't trickled down yet LOL
...
thanks for the info !
.....
Bob.....
__________________________________________________
Its too late when you've gone too far !
Bob KellyIII is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is there a DIY on piston rings? cookiebug79 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 33 April 22nd, 2015 01:17 PM
[motorcycle.com] - Ninja H2 Video XVIII: High Precision Cylinder Honing + Video Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 October 20th, 2014 09:40 AM
Stuck piston rings or glazed walls cuong-nutz General Motorcycling Discussion 14 March 5th, 2013 04:26 AM
Where to find oversized piston rings? cuong-nutz General Motorcycling Discussion 19 January 9th, 2013 08:27 AM
Where to buy Piston Rings? iceman.kcmo 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 5 January 28th, 2010 11:59 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:40 AM.


remote server monitor
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are Љ Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.