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Old September 29th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #1
Jerkson
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Jetting Woes...

Ok guys, I need some help here.

I looked through the jetting database and used very similar numbers as other members as a baseline:

K&N r0990 filter (aibox deleted)
Area P Full Exhaust (15" quiet core)
Factory Pro Jet kit - 12.5 jets with needles and clip in 3rd position.
elevation: 250-1100 ft

I also removed the kleen air system (following the DIY's on here). In the process I had to block off the upper port which is right below the gas tank and put a breather filter on the lower one which is down under the K&N filter.

As per the factory pro instructions I sandwiched 2 washers in between 2 clips to help with the bouncing.

Now, time to set my idle screws. Here's where the problems come in.

My idle is now at 1500rpm. I dont know why, but it is. On its own, it will fluctuate between 1500 and 1750 and then settle back down. It almost seems like theres a vacuum leak or something. Ignoring this for the time being I blipped the throttle to see if it hangs or if it dips. It hangs, for a long time (4-7sec) before settling between 1500 and 1750.

Changing the idle set screws from their baseline setting (2.5 turns out) to 3 turns out makes no difference, it still hangs. Where should I look first??!

I really appreciate any help you guys can give me. I can take pics if that will help clarify anything.

Thanks in advance!!

-J
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #2
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Make sure everything is properly connected and that you don't have any hoses that are loose, damaged, incorrectly routed, or disconnected.

Did you install the larger pilot jets?

Are the carbs properly synced?

Did you get the vacumn slides installed correctly. Those Diaphragms are frail and easily damaged, which could cause a lot of problem.

Did you remove the carbs when you rejetted or do it on the bike. If you removed the carbs it is possible that you moved the idle speed raising it to 1500 RPM; But if you are hanging, you are lean.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Make sure everything is properly connected and that you don't have any hoses that are loose, damaged, incorrectly routed, or disconnected.

Did you install the larger pilot jets?

Are the carbs properly synced?

Did you get the vacumn slides installed correctly. Those Diaphragms are frail and easily damaged, which could cause a lot of problem.

Did you remove the carbs when you rejetted or do it on the bike. If you removed the carbs it is possible that you moved the idle speed raising it to 1500 RPM; But if you are hanging, you are lean.
I figured hanging=lean. Hence why I suspected a vacuum leak or something.

I did everything on the bike. Changed the jets to 112.5 as mentioned. Did it by dropping the fuel bowls and going up from under there so no messing with slides or idle function.

I didnt have to undo any of the hoses. The only ones I had to undo were the Kleen air ones. The 3 way T was replaced with a straight tube because the 3'rd direction went to the kleen air valve thinger under the tank. This tube led from carbs to the fuel petcock I believe. Anyways, I just eliminated the T and follwed the original route.

I understood syncing the carbs was not required, only suggested for OPTIMAL function.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:42 PM   #4
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If you're sure everything else is okay, then I would pop off the caps and make sure the Diaphragms are okay. If they are, try moving to the next needle position and open the mixture screws up even more until the idle drops back like it should when blipped.

I didn't see if you had change the pilot jets?
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:52 PM   #5
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derr.....

I change the jets as described in the DIY. Reading through it, it refers to them as the Main jets.

EDIT: good lord, going back to the Factory Pro tackle box I see two pilot jets (#40). However this wasnt mentioned in the DIY. Crap...no wonder im running lean. Factory 38's are smaller than these.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:57 PM   #6
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The Main jets are the ones that hang down in the middle and are round. You installed 112.5s. There are also Pilot (slow) jets. The stock size on these is 38. Installing a 40 will richen the mixture in the low RPMs, which is were you are lean if the bike's idle is hanging.

Just to clarify:

Main jets:

Pilot Jets:
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
The Main jets are the ones that hang down in the middle and are round. You installed 112.5s. There are also Pilot (slow) jets. The stock size on these is 38. Installing a 40 will richen the mixture in the low RPMs, which is were you are lean if the bike's idle is hanging.

Just to clarify:

Main jets:

Pilot Jets:
I really appreciate you adding pics and hopefulyl this will help someone else in the future. I figured that out just before you posted. Now I just gotta figure out where these go lol. Factory service manual to the rescue.

(Why were these not mentioned in the DIY's??)
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:40 PM   #8
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Don't know why they are not in the DIY's other than if you are simply installing an exhaust it is probably not necessary, plus it is probably not needed at high elevation.

Here is a diagram (not very good but it might help you locate the pilot jets) Part number 92064


From my experience, the pilot jets are a PITA to take out without pulling the carbs. It can be done, but you need a thin short flat head screwdriver.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 07:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Don't know why they are not in the DIY's other than if you are simply installing an exhaust it is probably not necessary, plus it is probably not needed at high elevation.

Here is a diagram (not very good but it might help you locate the pilot jets) Part number 92064


From my experience, the pilot jets are a PITA to take out without pulling the carbs. It can be done, but you need a thin short flat head screwdriver.
Yeah I saw that diagram in my Service Manual. They arent in the "rejet without removing carbs" diy. Not even mentioned. With the Milwuakee Offset screwdriver I should be fine removing them. I had no problem with the main jets.

Thanks again for all your help. I will tackle this on Sat and post here.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 08:18 AM   #10
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They are deep inside a tubular housing that extends not quite as far down as the houseing for the needle jet holder and the main jet. If I remember correctly, it located left and slightly forward of the main jet which is basically right in the middle.

The tube is deep and narrow. you should be able to get it if you have the correct bit. I did not have a bit long enough for my offset screwdriver so I used a long narrow bit and a miniature set of vice-grips. IT was tight, but it can be done without removing the carbs.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 08:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
They are deep inside a tubular housing that extends not quite as far down as the houseing for the needle jet holder and the main jet. If I remember correctly, it located left and slightly forward of the main jet which is basically right in the middle.

The tube is deep and narrow. you should be able to get it if you have the correct bit. I did not have a bit long enough for my offset screwdriver so I used a long narrow bit and a miniature set of vice-grips. IT was tight, but it can be done without removing the carbs.
I have 3" long hex bits that fits the MOS. Hopefully it will be narrow enough.
I going to try it without removing the carbs. If need be, they are coming out.

Witht he air box gone it really isnt much more work to remove the carbs completely.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 08:25 AM   #12
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Yeah with the Airbox gone, removing the carbs is easy. it is s till an awkward fit, to get them past the frame, but it is a lot easier than if the box was there. Good luck. let me know what you find out.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 08:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Yeah with the Airbox gone, removing the carbs is easy. it is s till an awkward fit, to get them past the frame, but it is a lot easier than if the box was there. Good luck. let me know what you find out.
Will-do. Thanks again for coming to my rescue last night. lol.
If nobody replied I would probably still be turning those idle screws trying to richen it up. lol
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Old September 30th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #14
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Find your vaccum leak first or you are just beating your head against the wall.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:17 AM   #15
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Find your vaccum leak first or you are just beating your head against the wall.
The jets NEED to be changed. It's not really optional. So I may as well change that and it will likely fix my lean symptoms. If it doesn't I will re-visit the possibility of a vacuum leak.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:37 AM   #16
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The jets NEED to be changed. It's not really optional.
That's not neccessarily true. Some people in the jetting database did not change the pilot while others did and eventually returned to the stock #38.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:45 AM   #17
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That's not neccessarily true. Some people in the jetting database did not change the pilot while others did and eventually returned to the stock #38.
I only saw 1 person with the airbox removed and a full exhaust (same one too) that had the 38 pilots still in. Then again he had his pilot screws at 3 turns out each. Everyone else (who even listed their pilot jet size) had 40.

I dont think there is enough vacuum in this system to cause a leak at idle if all the hoses are connected, which they are. The clamps are on all hoses. Spraying starter-fluid around the hoses caused no change in idle so I'm ruling out vac-leaks for now.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkson View Post
I only saw 1 person with the airbox removed and a full exhaust (same one too) that had the 38 pilots still in. Then again he had his pilot screws at 3 turns out each. Everyone else (who even listed their pilot jet size) had 40.

I dont think there is enough vacuum in this system to cause a leak at idle if all the hoses are connected, which they are. The clamps are on all hoses. Spraying starter-fluid around the hoses caused no change in idle so I'm ruling out vac-leaks for now.
My airbox is removed and currently I am running the #40 pilot to try to eliminate a stutter at 1/8-1/4 throttle. The apparent fix for the stutter was moving to the 4th clip position and now the idle circuit seems a little boggy. I will be switching back to the #38 pilot first chance I get and then possibly going down to 110 main to lean out the whole RPM range a bit. Good luck and please report back.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:53 AM   #19
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Yes it is important to make sure that there are no vacuum leaks. My first recommendation to was to check all the hoses to make sure they were not damaged, disconnected, improperly installed, etc...

All of my other suggestions, were based on the assumption that there was no vacuum leak, and the symptoms that he is experiencing were that of a lean mixture in the low RPM range.

Assuming he was thorough in his check for a vacuum leak, the pilot jets is the next logical step. Then he needs to ride it to see how the needle hieght/mainjet size is working for him.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dubojr1 View Post
My airbox is removed and currently I am running the #40 pilot to try to eliminate a stutter at 1/8-1/4 throttle. The apparent fix for the stutter was moving to the 4th clip position and now the idle circuit seems a little boggy. I will be switching back to the #38 pilot first chance I get and then possibly going down to 110 main to lean out the whole RPM range a bit. Good luck and please report back.
Interesting. I would rather run pig-rich and foul plugs than run lean. So erring on the side of caution I will up my pilot jets and go down in the future if needed. The needle settings have very little to do with idle but come into play at low throttle openings like 1/8 throttle and up I thought. There was a good graphic showing how the different components take effect and in many cases overlap....let me try to find it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Yes it is important to make sure that there are no vacuum leaks. My first recommendation to was to check all the hoses to make sure they were not damaged, disconnected, improperly installed, etc...

All of my other suggestions, were based on the assumption that there was no vacuum leak, and the symptoms that he is experiencing were that of a lean mixture in the low RPM range.

Assuming he was thorough in his check for a vacuum leak, the pilot jets is the next logical step. Then he needs to ride it to see how the needle hieght/mainjet size is working for him.
I assumed that vac leaks can be pinpointed much like on a car - using starter fluid. So thats what I tried. There is only 1 vacuum line that I even disconnected which goes from the carbs to the fuel petcock and I am certain it is connected securely.. Anyways, so far I havent found any vacuum leaks.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #21
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found it:
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:11 PM   #22
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Yeah I'm thinking the idle is rich, but from the looks of my plugs, I can also afford to go down to 110's and then read plugs again. I want to change the pilot first to note the change and then drop to 110's later if the idle circuit cleans up.

I agree that running rich is better than lean. I believe your on the right path.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:15 PM   #23
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You may also find this thread useful. Its inside this one where my issues were addressed.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...actory+pro+jet
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:16 PM   #24
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many run the 38 pilots with rejetted bikes. I do. In fact, when the first jetting kits came out for the 250R, they didn't even have a replacement pilot jet included, which is why when the database was started, I didn't even think of including the pilot jet as a factor in the jetting update info.

The needle clip position will have some affect on idle mixture, no matter what that chart says. Why do you think shimming the needles help with warm up?
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:18 PM   #25
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many run the 38 pilots with rejetted bikes. I do. In fact, when the first jetting kits came out for the 250R, they didn't even have a replacement pilot jet included, which is why when the database was started, I didn't even think of including the pilot jet as a factor in the jetting update info.

The needle clip position will have some affect on idle mixture, no matter what that chart says. Why do you think shimming the needles help with warm up?
That carb. master has arrived....
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:34 PM   #26
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many run the 38 pilots with rejetted bikes. I do. In fact, when the first jetting kits came out for the 250R, they didn't even have a replacement pilot jet included, which is why when the database was started, I didn't even think of including the pilot jet as a factor in the jetting update info.

The needle clip position will have some affect on idle mixture, no matter what that chart says. Why do you think shimming the needles help with warm up?
So, course of action now should be.. ??
A) Change pilot jets to 40's and reset idle screws
or B) leave 38 pilot jets and change needle clip position (to what?) then reset idle screws.

Im leaning towards A

Quote:
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That carb. master has arrived....
I knew if my thread got enough posts we could coax him in here I have read (and now re-read) through some carb threads and others ran #40 pilot jets with needles at 3rd position(with 2 washers above for weight) and dynod it and it ran fine.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 12:51 PM   #27
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So, course of action now should be.. ??
A) Change pilot jets to 40's and reset idle screws
or B) leave 38 pilot jets and change needle clip position (to what?) then reset idle screws.


either/or... depending on what you see as the least amount of work to accomplish.

...or you could try backing out the mixture screws with the setup you have now till you get the results you are looking for then count the number of turns that the mixture screw is set at. You can then decide on the pilot jet/clip position at that time.

Make sure the bike is fully warmed up when doing this. I rode mine around w/o the fairings and came home and worked on it when warm/hot.

The idea is to richen up the mixture/pilot circuit, as it does sound like you're a bit lean (or have a vacuum leak), right now.

Before you do, make sure, as others have mentioned, that you're sure all vacuum lines are properly capped and you have no vacuum leaks and that you have proper choke freeplay at the end of the cable down by the carbs.

Also, do yo have a way to sync the carbs? You will need to so that in the near future, if not now, if you have the means.

BTW, the 112.5 mains are most likely a tad rich and you might consider 110s in the future when you start fine tuning your jetting. You do realize you're not over playing w/ the jetting by a long shot, don't you?
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Old September 30th, 2010, 01:11 PM   #28
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either/or... depending on what you see as the least amount of work to accomplish.

...or you could try backing out the mixture screws with the setup you have now till you get the results you are looking for then count the number of turns that the mixture screw is set at. You can then decide on the pilot jet/clip position at that time.

The idea is to richen up the mixture/pilot circuit, as it does sound like you're a bit lean (or have a vacuum leak), right now.

Before you do, make sure, as others have mentioned, that you're sure all vacuum lines are properly capped and you have no vacuum leaks and that you have proper choke freeplay at the end of the cable down by the carbs.

Also, do yo have a way to sync the carbs? You will need to so that in the near future, if not now, if you have the means.

BTW, the 112.5 mains are most likely a tad rich and you might consider 110s in the future when you start fine tuning your jetting. You do realize you're not over playing w/ the jetting by a long shot, don't you?
Ok, i will start by backing out the pilot screws more. I believe the max was 5 turns. There is some play in the choke cable and the choke lever acts the same as it did before (in which the first 20% of choke level's range goes from closed to fully open, it is very touchy)

I'm not sure what you mean by "over-playing" I was following Factory Pro's guideline for a starting point. 112.5 mains, clip on 3rd position (and #40 pilot)

wouldnt it be better to have the #40 pilot and idle screws at a smaller # of turns (like 2.5) than to have a #38 pilot jet and screws out at 4.5-5 turns??
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Old September 30th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #29
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I'm not sure what you mean by "over-playing" I was following Factory Pro's guideline for a starting point. 112.5 mains, clip on 3rd position (and #40 pilot)

wouldnt it be better to have the #40 pilot and idle screws at a smaller # of turns (like 2.5) than to have a #38 pilot jet and screws out at 4.5-5 turns??
Sorry, bad use of words... I meant, you're not through playing with the jetting by a long shot. Fine tuning is where it's at and it's a step by step, time consuming process.

The instructions give you basic starting points on where to start, but each bike differs and setting it up for your riding and location makes it close to perfection.

Yes, the mixture screws should be set anywhere from 1-3 turns out when you're all done, but for troubleshooting/fine tuning purposes, turning it out more can lead you in the right direction. You don't want it backed off so much that the screw can fall out, but anything less is fair game for now.

Are you using the "blip" method to set the mixture screws?

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...dle_mixture%3F

I use the "alternate" method.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #30
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Update???
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #31
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Update???
Sorry,

I dont have much to update as the weather has been crummy.
I wont be able to change the pilot jets out without removing the carbs, that much is for sure. (I tired )

I used the alternate method as linked above and my idle screws are each about 3 full turns out. It doesnt bog when I blip it, and it doesnt hang at all.
My idle is set to 1500 just because its an easy number to gauge. When I blip the throttle to 2500 or so and let go it drops to about 1400 or so and eventually, after 3 seconds, returns to 1500 on the dot.

Thoughts? I think I'm safe to ride it like this and can start trying to narrow down the BEST main jet and then do the whole process over again :P If only the rain would go away.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:39 AM   #32
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Try going in a quarter turn. You might not need the 40s
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkson View Post
I used the alternate method as linked above and my idle screws are each about 3 full turns out. It doesnt bog when I blip it, and it doesnt hang at all.
My idle is set to 1500 just because its an easy number to gauge. When I blip the throttle to 2500 or so and let go it drops to about 1400 or so and eventually, after 3 seconds, returns to 1500 on the dot.
that tells you you're too rich. did you even read the link I included?
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #34
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Yes, read everything about carbs here. Everything in the DIY links. There is tons of great information. If you didnt even know what a carb was, after reading everything you will know how to tear it apart and put back together!
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Old October 6th, 2010, 12:29 PM   #35
Jerkson
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Originally Posted by kkim View Post
that tells you you're too rich. did you even read the link I included?
I know that I'm too rich, but If I screw the screws in any more it hangs (lean).
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Old October 6th, 2010, 12:31 PM   #36
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how much are you screwing it in at a time from the time it dips to the time it hangs?

bike fully warmed up when you're doing this, correct?
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:36 PM   #37
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Did you get it running right? What setup worked?
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Old October 20th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #38
Jerkson
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Sorry for abandoning this threasd for so long. Heres an update (and some answers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkim View Post
how much are you screwing it in at a time from the time it dips to the time it hangs?

bike fully warmed up when you're doing this, correct?
Yes fully warmed up. it seemed to be within a half screw in and it would start to hang. I started from scratch and got it sorted out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Did you get it running right? What setup worked?
It ran fine, once it was fully warmed up. About 3 or 4 backfires over the course of a weekend and a couple sputters. I have since dropped it off at a shop that has a dyno and a older dude who used to race bikes for years is working on it.

He's like a 1 man deal, does lotsa porting jobs and valve jobs. He's highly recommended (in my area) on many forums from Gixxer's to Harleys. I want it dialed in perfectly and get a good dyno graph outta it.

He wasn't pleased to see a jetting kit though. It wasnt the jets he disliked but the needles. He started talking about how the taper affects this and that and how he would rather shim needles and adjust the springs. I dunno, he lost me by then but he said he would see how he can get it to perform utilizing the kit-needles and we'll go from there.

His main concern was that I got the most out of the mods and it had good streetability. He was VERY happy to see I didnt get a dynojet kit and drill the slides.
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