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Old April 12th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #1
Monkeytofu
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Coolant leaking into oil and oil leaking out of somewhere.

Hey guys, long time no see. Haven't posted in a while because of University and life and I hate that my first post when coming back is me begging for help, but I've got a big problem with my oil and coolant.

About four days ago I noticed my bike was starting to get very close to overheating, the needle would get high but then it'd drop down quickly when I started to drive. I figured it might be something to do with the coolant, so I checked out my reservoir when I got home and it was completely empty. After the bike had cooled down I opened the cap for the radiator and it was almost empty. I refilled both the reservoir and radiator, made sure there was no air and my bike seemed to work again, it wasn't overheating.

Now, I hadn't smelled any burning coolant, so I figured it may have leaked into the oil somehow as I remember that being an issue when I first got my bike. Sure enough, the oil was somewhat milky, but looked normal. I decided to continue riding the bike to see if any of the new coolant would leak into it.

Coming out of class today I noticed a large foot long pool of oil on the ground. I noticed some coolant in it but I couldn't find any specific point where it was leaking. I drove the bike home and a lot of white smoke was coming up from the left and the front of my bike but I still couldn't see a source of leakage.

When I got home I took everything apart and drained the oil. Sure enough, it looked like chocolate milk and almost all the coolant in the radiator was gone and the reservoir was empty. I also noticed water/ some liquid coming out of the bottom breather hose and white gunk in the breather box. There was also some oil under the starter and around it.

I'm a bit confused though as that's on the right side of the engine while the oil dripping on to my exhaust pipes is on the left and where the big pool was earlier today. Are these signs my head gasket is gone or could this be some other issue?

TL;DR version: Coolant leaking into oil, oil leaking out on left side, oil all over my tire, do I need a new head gasket?

Here are some pictures:

Oil in my lower fairings when I removed them:


Oil around my starter (there was more but I dried it up before the picture):


Headers with the area where oil was dropping onto them.


My tire once I was home (found a nail in it too :/)


"milky" oil after I drained my bike:
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Old April 12th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #2
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Big problems. You may need a head gasket. It might even be worse like a cracked engine. It might be simple, like both a leaking coolant pipe and a leaking valve cover gasket. Time to start shopping. What is the highest point of the leak?
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Old April 12th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #3
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Was the engine still hot when you refilled the radiator?

Welcome back btw, too bad it's under these circumstances. Does you bike still have that crazy paint job?
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Old April 12th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #4
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Big problems. You may need a head gasket. It might even be worse like a cracked engine. It might be simple, like both a leaking coolant pipe and a leaking valve cover gasket. Time to start shopping. What is the highest point of the leak?
Other than the oil under the starter it seems that all the oil/coolant is collect on above the left exhaust.


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Was the engine still hot when you refilled the radiator?

Welcome back btw, too bad it's under these circumstances. Does you bike still have that crazy paint job?
No I waited until the bike was completely cooled to refill it.

Thanks! And yes it does

Here's an image of where it's mostly collecting, the top and mid section of engine are mostly except for the usual road grime, although the area the breather hose is wet and smells kind of like gas.

I'm also missing some sort of nut on this radiator tube but I can't find what it is on the parts diagram.

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Old April 12th, 2013, 05:35 PM   #5
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http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID.../Radiator(1_2)

Maybe you need to replace the bolt and the seal behind the water pump.

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Old April 13th, 2013, 05:59 AM   #6
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Noor,

It seems to me that the coolant has made the crankcase over-full and the excess of coolant-oil mix has been pushed out through the breather; hence, the spread mess.

Pump seals rarely fail and when they do, you can see coolant leaking out through a hole in the pump body.

It seems that your head gasket is fried and/or your head is warped (common things that happen when coolant runs extremely low), but it could be something else as well that allows pressurized coolant flowing onto the oil.

I though that you had replaced that tire since you low-sided some time ago !!!

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Forget about repairing the damage; just replace those Dunlop tires !!
Yes sir, the first purchase I'm going to make.
Pictures of the repaired bike and paint job are still owed !!!
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Old April 14th, 2013, 11:44 AM   #7
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Noor,

It seems to me that the coolant has made the crankcase over-full and the excess of coolant-oil mix has been pushed out through the breather; hence, the spread mess.

Pump seals rarely fail and when they do, you can see coolant leaking out through a hole in the pump body.

It seems that your head gasket is fried and/or your head is warped (common things that happen when coolant runs extremely low), but it could be something else as well that allows pressurized coolant flowing onto the oil.
I don't really have the facilities to take apart my engine since I assume I have to take the engine out and apart to replace the gasket. Should I just take it to a mechanic at this point or are there some other tests I can do to check if it's blown?


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I though that you had replaced that tire since you low-sided some time ago !!!


Pictures of the repaired bike and paint job are still owed !!!
I wish I could provide pictures of either, I could only do the bare minimum as the cosmetic repairs/ tire replacements were (and maybe still are) out of my budget at the moment.

I may even end up having a shop patch my tire until I can save up enough to buy some new tires :/

Hopefully once I become more financially independent after I graduate I can do some real work on my bike
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Old April 14th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #8
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I don't really have the facilities to take apart my engine since I assume I have to take the engine out and apart to replace the gasket. Should I just take it to a mechanic at this point or are there some other tests I can do to check if it's blown?
The gasket can be replaced with the engine in the bike; only the cams and head needs to be removed.

A long but good thread about replacing head gasket and repairing leaky valves:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...=116053&page=5

You should be able to find traces of oil floating on the coolant (reservoir and radiator).

A Kenda tire is about $60 and it is simple to be installed by yourself.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:17 PM   #9
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The gasket can be replaced with the engine in the bike; only the cams and head needs to be removed.

A long but good thread about replacing head gasket and repairing leaky valves:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...=116053&page=5

You should be able to find traces of oil floating on the coolant (reservoir and radiator).

A Kenda tire is about $60 and it is simple to be installed by yourself.
Seems the link isn't working, is this the thread you were trying to link?

I'm still searching around. Hopefully I can find a good deal but for now I'm going to go the patch route so I can get around town to get my parts/ pick up packages.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM   #10
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Seems the link isn't working, is this the thread you were trying to link?
Yes !
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Old May 20th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #11
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Update post! I've graduated university and I have nice break to fix my bike.

I've taken the bike apart so here's a couple pictures:

Here's a picture of the camshafts, it seems one of the circle guides was chipped off at some point, but that seems to have been a long time ago as the break was covered in oil when I took it out and I couldn't find the missing piece. Doesn't seem to be a major issue as my bike has been running fine, minus the coolant leak.



Here's the old gasket, had lots of drops of coolant on it when I removed it. Not exactly sure what's wrong with it if the black layer is just paint. If it's not just paint, then that's definitely the problem since the gasket is pretty much stripped.



Pistons look fine, should I clean them or just leave them be? I've read online about people cleaning the carbon built up on them but I'm not exactly sure what I'd use to clean them.



Finally, a pic of my bike in pieces. :'(
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Old May 20th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #12
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My thread!

Yeah my head gasket looked exactly the same when I took it apart. I put a new one in and voila bike ran perfect again. You can always lap your valves and clean the carbon off your pistons (strongly recommend WD40 for that!!). But you'll need to have a tool to put the valve collets back on the stems after you're done. Cleaning the pistons is plenty easy just make sure you orient the rings and pistons themselves properly after you're done.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #13
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Mate, that is a wicked paint job. Good luck with the repairs.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #14
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Update post! I've graduated university and I have nice break to fix my bike.........
Congratulations, Noor !!!
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Old May 21st, 2013, 01:33 PM   #15
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Congratulations, Noor !!!
Thank you! It's a big step forward for me!

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Mate, that is a wicked paint job. Good luck with the repairs.

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My thread!

Yeah my head gasket looked exactly the same when I took it apart. I put a new one in and voila bike ran perfect again. You can always lap your valves and clean the carbon off your pistons (strongly recommend WD40 for that!!). But you'll need to have a tool to put the valve collets back on the stems after you're done. Cleaning the pistons is plenty easy just make sure you orient the rings and pistons themselves properly after you're done.
I decided it was a bit too much to take them out at this point and clean the entire thing. I couldn't get anything substantial from wiping the top off anyways so I'll leave them as is for now.

Questions for those who know: do I need to use sealent for the head gasket? From what I can gather online it looks like I shouldn't be using any at all.

Also should I turn over the engine at any point in putting the camshafts back in? I thought about just returning them back to the position they came out, but I'm not exactly sure if that's going to that easy.

The guide I've used to disassemble the engine has been this one: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=74552 which has a guide on Timing valves. I'm just afraid of screwing anything up.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 01:50 PM   #16
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Here's a picture of them right before I took them out.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 01:51 PM   #17
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Thank you! It's a big step forward for me!






I decided it was a bit too much to take them out at this point and clean the entire thing. I couldn't get anything substantial from wiping the top off anyways so I'll leave them as is for now.

Questions for those who know: do I need to use sealent for the head gasket? From what I can gather online it looks like I shouldn't be using any at all.

Also should I turn over the engine at any point in putting the camshafts back in? I thought about just returning them back to the position they came out, but I'm not exactly sure if that's going to that easy.

The guide I've used to disassemble the engine has been this one: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=74552 which has a guide on Timing valves. I'm just afraid of screwing anything up.

Don't use any gasket maker/sealant for your head gasket.

Don't worry about screwing anything up it's not that hard of a process, albeit a little time consuming.

I'll pm you the shop manual for this process if motofool hasn't already.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 01:56 PM   #18
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You wanna check that you're at TDC when you put the cams back on and count 33 links in between the EX and IN markings on your cams' sprockets. You're gonna need to use the shop manual to find the sequence you put your camshaft caps back on.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 02:29 PM   #19
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You wanna check that you're at TDC when you put the cams back on and count 33 links in between the EX and IN markings on your cams' sprockets. You're gonna need to use the shop manual to find the sequence you put your camshaft caps back on.
Thanks for the offer of sending me the manual, I have a PDF of it already

How do I reach TDC? Is that when the 2T mark is at the mark shows up in the viewing window of the crankshaft?

I assume I should hold the camchain tight so it doesn't get caught in anything since I've already removed the cams without putting it on TDC. I think the person who previously did this could have caused the break in the guides at the end by not putting it in a position that could cause tension.

----

Also, I accidentally ended up breaking the bolt that holds the top end to the rest of the engine Kawi makes these things out of butter. Replaced it with a nice SS bolt and washer that should do a better job.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 02:38 PM   #20
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Yeah 2DC is top dead center for cylinder 2. This way none of the cam lobes will be pushing against the valves while you're installing (and of course the timing between the piston and the stroke will be correct).

I put a coat hanger in the middle of the chain to keep it from falling down until I put them on the sprockets.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 04:27 PM   #21
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I've got them in their positions (EX lined up with the case to the front, IN lined up on the back) but I still have this gap on the left side of the camp from the lobes pushing up on the valves. Is this normal?
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 04:51 PM   #22
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Hard to say without being there! I can't recall sorry.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 06:05 PM   #23
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.........Also, I accidentally ended up breaking the bolt that holds the top end to the rest of the engine Kawi makes these things out of butter. Replaced it with a nice SS bolt and washer that should do a better job.
What bolt is it?
SS cannot do the job, it is much softer steel than original bolt.

Also very important: the cap of the cams are not interchangeable, they must go back to the original position and the torque should follow the specified sequence.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 07:04 PM   #24
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What bolt is it?
SS cannot do the job, it is much softer steel than original bolt.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...EAD/parts.html

Went with the SS because my local bolt supplier only had the 6x25 bolt in SS and only 6x20 in unpainted steel. I could go ahead and order that bolt but I'm not sure if need to.

It's bolt 130, I don't think it's a very important bolt, it's actually kind of strange that it's there at all when the head and piston body are attached by the inner 7 bolts already as it only goes through the head gasket.

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Also very important: the cap of the cams are not interchangeable, they must go back to the original position and the torque should follow the specified sequence.
I don't understand what you're saying Do you mean the silver brackets/ covers that go over the cams? The issue I'm having with the cams right now is that when I line up the EX and IN lines with the top of the engine case I'm the EX camp is slightly raised because of the lobes touching the valves.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 07:51 PM   #25
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It is listed as obsolete in that link.

I believe that you are correct.

Yes, those are the parts.

Any time the cams are facing down, they are pushing the valves down.

With no force, the valves push the cams up; just normal.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #26
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Well it's back together and running... kind of... Here's a video of the issue I'm having now. Hard knocking noise when I start the bike, but I don't have any gas leaks or coolant leaks anymore. Everything looks fine when I took the top off.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old May 25th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #27
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Have you gotten the bike to idle at all? I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is normal or abnormal to be honest. I would need to hear it run... I mean it could be the echo of your garage or something like that.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 01:39 PM   #28
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Knocking could be spun rod bearings from running the bike with water in oil.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #29
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Have you gotten the bike to idle at all? I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is normal or abnormal to be honest. I would need to hear it run... I mean it could be the echo of your garage or something like that.
It idled for a bit and we kept hearing a ticking noise, I was adjusting the manual cam chain tensioner to make sure there wasn't anymore play in it because I heard a ticking noise which I thought was the chain then I heard a CLACK and I immediately turned off the bike in case something had broken off. I opened the top and looked at the valves, camshafts, and chain but everything looks to be in perfect condition.

I'm at a loss here, I may take it to a mechanic on tuesday and hopefully they can fix it if I can't figure it out by then.

Edit: turning over the engine over manually didn't give me any weird noises either, so it doesn't seem like anything is loose or stuck.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 03:33 PM   #30
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Just be careful not to over stretch your chain with the manual tensioner. Sis you get a new chain installed or do you still have your original one? I didn't keep up with your old ticking thread.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #31
Monkeytofu
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Motorcycle(s): 1996 Ninja 250r

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Originally Posted by cuong-nutz View Post
Just be careful not to over stretch your chain with the manual tensioner. Sis you get a new chain installed or do you still have your original one? I didn't keep up with your old ticking thread.
The CCT I bought fixed the issue so I don't think that's the problem. A friend of mine says that I may have skipped a tooth with the timing, but I'm almost 100% sure it was correct... I'll be opening it tomorrow and checking it out again :/

Edit: any idea how my engine would sound if that happened?
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Old May 25th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #32
FvnnyL3tt3r1ng
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Originally Posted by Monkeytofu View Post
The CCT I bought fixed the issue so I don't think that's the problem. A friend of mine says that I may have skipped a tooth with the timing, but I'm almost 100% sure it was correct... I'll be opening it tomorrow and checking it out again :/

Edit: any idea how my engine would sound if that happened?
Idk about the noise but as long as you're sure the chain is 33 links between when you put that cam chain cover on I doubt it skipped a link. The clearance is so tiny I find it hard to believe it happens to anyone...
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