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Hilary Clinton 15 46.88%
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Old October 14th, 2016, 07:52 AM   #121
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Frugal, maybe you're right and I need a better accountant, but I truly believe you highly underestimate the level of ethics I have. I fired my last accountant that "saved" me $$$ by questionably filling out the tax forms. I have no issue paying my part and fair share, however... I highly dislike being taken advantage of. Here is a peek of what is going on with YOUR $$$ as well as everyone else's that posts here.

You get taxed on your gross income at the fed level - deductions (15%-22%)
You get taxed on your gross income at the state level - deductions (around 7%)
You pay taxes on nearly every dollar you spend - sales tax (6%+, 33%+/- on gas and other taxes on top of that for other goods they specifically tax outside of the norm)
You pay school tax on your utilities .3% (around $12 a month)
You might pay city our county taxes depending on where you live (1-2% around $200-$300 bucks)
You pay tax year after year, after year on your car, house and other properties just because you own them.
Local levee's for XYZ schools, parks, museums, ect... ect...
bla bla bla bla bla bla

Trust me, you are in the same boat as me, you only get about 50ish% of you're income, the rest goes to someone else.

So say you get $1000
-18% = $820 (add another 15% for me because I am self employed, yes I know a good chunk of that is SSI, but that don't help my monthly budget none and may be taxable later anyway... :\)
-7% = $750 (that is 7% of $1k not $820)
School tax - $12 = $738
City tax @ 1.5% = $15 - $738 = $723
Property taxes @ $1500 a year for home/auto = $125... $598 left
Levee's $8 = $590
If you spend $590 on goods that are subject to sales tax then - 6% of that too. = $554

Hey, not bad for making $1k right?
The way our federal taxes work now is that you pay zero on the first $43 of that one week paycheck, then 10% of the amount between $43 and $222, then 15% of the amount between $222 and $767, then 25% of the amount between $767 and $1,000. A lot of people incorrectly believe that when their income increases into the next tax bracket that the new tax rate applies to all their income, when in fact it only applies to the amount that's in that actual tax bracket. That's why they call them brackets. In your hypothetical $1,000 gross paycheck for a week's worth, the actual FICA owed would be $0 + $17.90 + $81.75 + $58.25 = $157.90. Now, my Windows calculator says that $157.90 is 15.79% of $1,000 not 18%, so this is a good demonstrator of why you need an accountant. Oh, and this tax is after all your deductions that you are allowed to take out of that $1,000 before it even gets to the tax tables in the first place. Heck, all those other state and local taxes you pay are deductible from your income before you calculate your federal taxes. In fact, I think your accountant's fee is also deductible as a business expense. And since you're probably a contractor, you can deduct your mileage driving to and fro at the current rate of .54/mile. If you drive 20 miles round trip that's $10.80 per day, $54/week you can take right off the top before the Feds get their cut. Sweet.

Do you pay sales tax on food? I'm just curious. In my state almost all food is untaxed unless it's a prepared ready to eat type item. Bread, veggies, meats, canned and jarred foods are tax-free. Sandwiches at the deli, takeout food, and all beer and softdrinks are taxed. Our sales tax rate is 8.25%.

Bottom line is you're paying way more than you should in taxes and it's because you've decided to not use an accountant.

Here's last year's IRS guide to deductible expenses, it's 52 pages long: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p535.pdf

And here's this year's Circular E which describes the wage bracket system for calculating federal witholding:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15...link1000254784

All you're accomplishing by way overpaying taxes is self-flaggelation. Get an accountant, stop making excuses. Ask around for references, look for a CPA, read yelp review, just stop inventing reasons to keep overpaying your taxes.

Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; October 25th, 2016 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Speeling...
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:09 AM   #122
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I feel ya, I just call em as I see em. I don't make the rules, but I have to play by them. If you're gunna call one out... then call em all out, not just the one that makes good for the purpose of benefit. Ya see, I aint pointing to a single man, I am pointing to an issue with ALL of us.
One minor problem with "calling them as one sees them": http://io9.gizmodo.com/5974468/the-m...being-rational

It's the reason why a highly educated and intelligent engineer can get talked into becoming a suicide bomber: http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ldabomber.html

It's easy to accept personal biases as representing the norm, that's literally how we humans are biologically wired. It wasn't until the Renaissance and the introduction of formal scientific method thinking that we were, after a quarter million years, finally able to start breaking our way out of that. However, rational thinking is not natural or normal for our meat brains, so it takes a lot of hard work on an ongoing basis to avoid slipping back into thinking like meat. That's what people like Trump and Muammar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein and so many others in our history rely on to bring people, and power, to themselves. They convince us to think with our built-in biases and feelings, and once they've created that kind of thinking in their followers they create the hatreds and lies that continue to support those biases. Trump's followers truly believe that he's never molested a female, they believe that to the core of their being, and thus consider anyone who says otherwise to be a liar and, more importantly, an enemy. They are the perfect proof of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

And all of us have this issue. The real question is, which of us can recognize this within ourselves and actively work to overcome it? Trump's followers have demonstrated their failure to do this, though I don't really blame them. Trump is as good a manipulator of people as any other con man of the last century. I see his followers as his victims, just as much as I see suicide bombers as victims of their leaders.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:26 AM   #123
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Thanks for the info Mr. Frugal. I am not a contractor, I don't fill out 1099s, a w4 or w2. I file a k1 + gains, losses, home office, utilities, mileage, fees, memberships, ect.. ect.. all the way down to pencils. All in all, your math reduces the overall rate of tax from 50ish% to around 30% (roughly). Cool! Now ask yourself when you go to the ATM and ask for $10, if the machine only spit out $7 would you be ok with that? Should it spit out $5.5 so others can have free college or something else? Maybe it should spit out $11 instead. Why?!?!? Because there are people who have no job all year, pay $0 in taxes and still get a refund of nearly $5k. Hmmmm.... Imho, there is sooooo much wrong with current taxation, and be careful now... don't take advantage of not paying your fair share of taxes too much, someone might get buthurt because a loss was claimed, yet it's completely cool to pay $0 and get a refund. I just don't get it, seems hypocritical to me but I digress.

Anyway, you are 100% correct though, I really, really, really need a GREAT accountant. Someone willing to dig into the details vs just fill out the forms without knowing how they all work together. All I find are tax specialists or investment specialists. I want a guy that knows both.

Last futzed with by csmith12; October 14th, 2016 at 09:29 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:45 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250 View Post
One minor problem with "calling them as one sees them": http://io9.gizmodo.com/5974468/the-m...being-rational
Laxatives look like chocolates... I see where you are going.

Maybe you're reading more into my statement that I put into it. The point was "don't make a criminal when there was none before." Fact is, dog owners are going through this right now. They wake up one morning to find themselves in violation of some ordinance passed. This happens with other things too.

ie... calling it as I see it. Funny how law works too, it is supposed to be called/ruled as it was written.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:13 AM   #125
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@Panda I see you put me on your ignore list. That does not work in "off topic" but I will respect your wish and make this my last post in any of your threads. If I unintentionally post in one of your threads, let me know and I will delet.
Would you like me to delete my posts here thus far?
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Old October 14th, 2016, 11:06 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Panda View Post
So what do you think the problem at hand is? What's your solution to the problem as you see it?
As much as I would like to get into it, it's way too much to discuss here. At a high level, people overall need to get their values back in harmony with each other;

Honor
Dignity
Respect
Tolerance
Self control
Kindness
Work ethic
Forgiveness
Influence

That should be a good start.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 11:32 AM   #127
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As much as I would like to get into it, it's way too much to discuss here. At a high level, people overall need to get their values back in harmony with each other;

Honor
Dignity
Respect
Tolerance
Self control
Kindness
Work ethic
Forgiveness
Influence

That should be a good start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Fair enough, still doesn't address problem at hand. "Feelings" never solved any problems, only actions. Ya see, I am one of those hard arses... give me some evidence that is kinda tangible that the change will make a real difference. Otherwise.... wtf ever.


..also it was nice chatting with you about this Chris. Cheers!
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Old October 14th, 2016, 01:25 PM   #128
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..also it was nice chatting with you about this Chris. Cheers!
No doubt sir! I have already broken my self rule of not posting in political threads enough. The best part of what makes us great is how we can have separate viewpoints, still shake hands, smile and enjoy each other's company at the end of the day. I hope that is never forgotten no matter the actions taken.

So I leave you and all with best wishes and the knowledge that you have a friend here.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:40 PM   #129
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have your view. explain your view. vote by your view. everyone else can do the same. there's zero point telling people their view is wrong. if they want to vote for a racist biggot, that is their decision. that is who they want to be represented by.
Love this. This is how it's done. I agree there's no point in telling people their views are wrong. Discussions about why you feel the way you do, and listening to others say why they are where they are, that's different. Sometimes the reasons from the "other" side make sense and you change your views on something. Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250 View Post
We are demonstrating here what it's like to have civil conversation without name-calling (much), ennuendos, and all the nasty rhetorical tactics that usually turn such threads into the verbal equivalent of throwing rocks and sticks at each other.
And thank goodness!
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Old October 15th, 2016, 06:34 AM   #130
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Seeing that the two major party candidates are doing so much md slinging, I was afraid the same thing would happen here. I am very glad to see that although everyone has very good points to make, they have stated them and not attacked others.
Thank you all.
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Old October 15th, 2016, 06:39 AM   #131
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On another note.
I would be very interested to hear from our members that are from other countries and let us know what you think about this presidential race and compare it to how things are done in your country.

Thanks.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 02:01 PM   #132
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On another note.
I would be very interested to hear from our members that are from other countries and let us know what you think about this presidential race and compare it to how things are done in your country.

Thanks.
This is probably a bit rambling.

We don't see a whole lot of Clinton, Trump gets a lot more coverage that I see, media and social media combined, his propaganda, his sheer idiocy, & the personality cult around him.

Looks like they're trying to start a civil war, from what we see on the outside there's next to nothing on policy, it's go for the jugular on your opponent.

Trump could win it, more from people who want to kick the establishment rather than him being the best candidate. Look at Duterte in the Philipines, the british leaving the EU, people who want to kick the system do some odd things, especially if you feed them oversimplified 'me good / them bad' ****.

It's starting to go the same way here, our leader of the opposition has a personality cult (but he's a bit more bernie sanders), doesn't listen to anyone bar his yes men, disregards policy when it suits him, has lost the confidence of all bar his personality cult.
One of the oppositioin MPs (~congresswoman) from the next county north of me was shot dead not too long ago over being seen not to be anti immigration enough. That's in a country where guns are very difficult to get, the guy made one himself for the assassination.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 02:59 PM   #133
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This is probably a bit rambling.

We don't see a whole lot of Clinton, Trump gets a lot more coverage that I see, media and social media combined, his propaganda, his sheer idiocy, & the personality cult around him.

Looks like they're trying to start a civil war, from what we see on the outside there's next to nothing on policy, it's go for the jugular on your opponent.

Trump could win it, more from people who want to kick the establishment rather than him being the best candidate. Look at Duterte in the Philipines, the british leaving the EU, people who want to kick the system do some odd things, especially if you feed them oversimplified 'me good / them bad' ****.

It's starting to go the same way here, our leader of the opposition has a personality cult (but he's a bit more bernie sanders), doesn't listen to anyone bar his yes men, disregards policy when it suits him, has lost the confidence of all bar his personality cult.
One of the oppositioin MPs (~congresswoman) from the next county north of me was shot dead not too long ago over being seen not to be anti immigration enough. That's in a country where guns are very difficult to get, the guy made one himself for the assassination.
That was a great synopsis of what is going on here. Trump got as far as he did because he is not part of the establishment.. Bernie did not get any further than he did because the establishment of the democrats already had there candidate in mind and wanted to put on a show and not make there intentions obvious to the Bernie supporters and the rest of the world.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:18 AM   #134
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what happens if they both rig the election? whoever rigs it more wins? what if this nonsense turns out to be something and they both get caught rigging the elections.... can we swap in bernie?
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Old October 19th, 2016, 04:35 AM   #135
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Doesn't the constitution say we can scrap the system and start over... Anyone know how that is done???
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Old October 19th, 2016, 09:34 AM   #136
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Sad to not see third party options... I won't vote for evil or to uphold the ineffectual status quo.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 11:05 AM   #137
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Third parties are shut out just like Bernie was... Welcome to America and all our amazing freedom
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:11 PM   #138
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Doesn't the constitution say we can scrap the system and start over... Anyone know how that is done???
It's called a revolution which trend to be very deadly and messy.
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Sad to not see third party options... I won't vote for evil or to uphold the ineffectual status quo.
The third party candidates, which there are many, will be right below Donald and Hilary.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 06:05 PM   #139
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The final debate has just started!
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Old October 19th, 2016, 08:46 PM   #140
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It's called a revolution which trend to be very deadly and messy.

The third party candidates, which there are many, will be right below Donald and Hilary.
Yea those third party folks, they look so amazing on the debate stage; I'm surprised when more people can't name them... It's like they don't see them at the debates or nothing... Hey wait
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Old October 19th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #141
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Sad to not see third party options... I won't vote for evil or to uphold the ineffectual status quo.
I really wanna vote for trump to knock out Hillary, but I doubt he can even win in this crooked selection we are led to believe we actually have a part in
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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:58 AM   #142
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Allot of great opinions here, and I agree everybody is civil and respectful. That is so important.

While I am very much in support of the 2nd, I will admit I had no idea that they just could not come pick them up!! lol Thanks to the kind gentleman who explained it quite clearly above.

Very interesting and allot of great minds here. I love this site.

On a lighter note, has anybody heard of the show Mr. Pickles. OMG hilarious. disturbing but funny. Completely inappropriate stuff here, so those easily offended don't watch.

Who thinks of this stuff?


Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old October 21st, 2016, 10:43 AM   #143
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The third party candidates, which there are many, will be right below Donald and Hilary.
Lol, Snake, not on the ballot, in the poll at the top of this thread..... Would be interesting to see how many ninjetters are third party, and which one.

@JohnnyBravo - I completely agree. I still haven't been able to figure out why they're encouraging people to vote. The popular vote doesn't factor into the election in any way, does it?

We should be writing our congressional representatives to influence their vote, since theirs are the only ones that count, no?

I mean, the electors are the same people in the House of Representatives, right? Hence the 270 vote break down?

This is why I tell people to vote third party. Doesn't matter which one.

If neither candidate gets 270 votes, and the popular vote is 60% to one candidate, the House would be hard pressed not to pick the third party. That is, if they do their jobs and represent the people.

Since the popular vote doesn't count, might as well voice an opinion?

Somebody please straighten me out where I'm wrong.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 11:03 AM   #144
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I believe you're referencing the Electoral College Spoof.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Who are your "electors" and what are they thinking of all this chaos?

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:15 PM   #145
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@csmith12, yessir, that's what I'm talking about!

And I think my original point still stands.

Our votes don't count. Only the elector's votes count (which were voted on during the national convention for each party). A person's vote as a registered member of a party would count in the primaries/caucuses, but doesn't count for the president.

So, the popular vote is just symbolic then. Why then vote for one of the two candidates if you don't agree with them? It's not like it's going to change anything?
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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:36 PM   #146
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It's not 100% symbolic as stated, it determines the party affiliation of the electors that vote on that state's behalf. But to you point, they could go against the popular vote of who they represent (it's been done before).

Quote:
Political parties often choose Electors for the slate to recognize their service and dedication to that political party. They may be state elected officials, state party leaders, or people in the state who have a personal or political affiliation with their party's Presidential candidate. (For specific information about how slates of potential Electors are chosen, contact the political parties in each state.)
So yes... the popular vote does have quite an impact on "the who" part of the college pool's political values. The problem with "the who" part in this election is... BOTH major parties dislike Trump as a candidate. So no matter the mix of beliefs of the college, there is an above average chance that even if Trump wins the popular vote, he will lose the electoral vote. In order for him to be President, he not only has to win, but win BIG!

So for example; if Cali turned red, that is 55 votes that swing to the right vs the left by selection (vise versa for blue states). Electors are free to cast their votes as they see fit but is rare for them to break their pledge of voting biased toward the popular vote of the people. Many states have laws that require the electors to vote purely on the popular vote but not ALL 50.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:43 PM   #147
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I thought the electors were picked by the delegates at the national convention for each party?

And the delegates are picked at the caucuses/primaries in each state?

So, going to the caucus and being involved at that level has an impact, but I still don't understand how the popular vote has an effect on the presidential election.

I'm very sorry, I've been trying to make sense of this for over a year. I guess I'm just dumb, but I'm going to keep trying.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:48 PM   #148
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Think about it even more my friend...

Candidates parade around various states having meetings with "People of Interest." Mayors, sheriffs, governors... got an idea of who your electors are now?
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Old October 21st, 2016, 12:53 PM   #149
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I'm very sorry, I've been trying to make sense of this for over a year. I guess I'm just dumb, but I'm going to keep trying.
I am not completely sure when electors are chosen and by "exactly" who. But at a high level....

California has 55 electoral votes
That means there are 55 for republicans
That means there are 55 for democrats
That means there are 55 for each of the other parties as well

So if the popular vote says their party's candidate wins... THAT set of 55 electors is who goes to actually vote for president. Here is the kicker though... There are only so many "people of interest/influence", so cross contamination is possible. So if the governor of California is on both the R and D electoral lists... how will he vote? THAT is how you invalidate the popular vote.

Diving deeper....
Let's say out of the 55 votes and the state goes blue...
31 may be only on the R list
10 may be on both the R and D list (how will they vote?!?!?!? nobody knows)
3 will vote D no matter what (reason doesn't matter)
11 are in the middle but on the R and Green or Lib party lists, but still could vote D because it's closer to their beliefs
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Old October 21st, 2016, 01:19 PM   #150
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And sometimes a candidate just plain pisses off their electors.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...-suprun-227422
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Old October 21st, 2016, 01:35 PM   #151
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Ah, so the popular vote chooses which set of electors' ballots to count toward the presidential vote.

huh, what do you know, our votes actually do count...

Great info, thanks a bunch!

So, in order to get a third party candidate elected, the third party has to be big enough, in enough states to have the electors they chose at their national convention go to the presidential vote. Did I get it right?

Unless of course neither R or D candidate can get 51% of the votes (270), in which case it goes that the whole House of Rep. process.

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Old October 21st, 2016, 02:50 PM   #152
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Ah, so the popular vote chooses which set of electors' ballots to count toward the presidential vote.

huh, what do you know, our votes actually do count...

Great info, thanks a bunch!

So, in order to get a third party candidate elected, the third party has to be big enough, in enough states to have the electors they chose at their national convention go to the presidential vote. Did I get it right?

Unless of course neither R or D candidate can get 51% of the votes (270), in which case it goes that the whole House of Rep. process.

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Pretty much you got that right, although I don't know if the list of electors is finalized at their respective parties convention.

On the 270 number and all of congress (House and Senate)... I also believe you got that right as well. However, from what I understand "congress can save us from ourselves" and intervene in the electoral process and vote themselves. Or... if there is a contested/objected electoral vote(s), congress is the deciding factor either by resolving the contest/objection or by taking the vote in their own hands.

An example of this was when Al Gore ran and demanded a recount in FL. Since he was a member of congress, all he needed was another to sign the paperwork with him to contest the count for the ENTIRE state of FL's electoral votes. Since FL requires (by state law) ALL electoral votes go to the popular vote candidate, a recount contest was filed. It was up to congress to proceed with the recount or call it as it stood.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 02:55 PM   #153
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Yes @csmith12 it's time to do away with the electoral college and delegates for the primaries.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 06:26 PM   #154
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 03:50 AM   #155
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VERY well said. There is no excuse for ignorance in an age of information. And ignorance is how tyranny establishes itself.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 06:34 AM   #156
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Can anyone explain why Bernie is still supporting Hilary even after it comes out that the Democratic Party was against him.

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Old October 22nd, 2016, 11:57 PM   #157
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Yes it's time to do away with the electoral college and delegates for the primaries.
I agree. The electoral college made sense when someone had to ride a horse to the capital to cast the votes for their state but we're past that now. Needs to go.
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Old October 23rd, 2016, 03:57 PM   #158
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Can anyone explain why Bernie is still supporting Hilary even after it comes out that the Democratic Party was against him.
Who freakin knows... Hillary must have told him something wonderful for him to flip; some folks said he even bought a fancy new house, but I haven't seen it
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Old October 23rd, 2016, 08:17 PM   #159
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Old October 24th, 2016, 09:39 AM   #160
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