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Old June 12th, 2017, 08:13 AM   #1
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"Entry" vs. "exit" corners... definition?

@Misti @csmith12 @Motofool

I've heard the terms "entry corner" and "exit corner."

I know they refer to different approaches to line selection, braking and throttle roll-on, but on reflection I'm having a hard time clearly defining what those differences are.

I'm keeping a track journal and want to write an entry on that, so would appreciate a bit of demystification.

And... discuss.

Thanks!
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Old June 12th, 2017, 09:17 AM   #2
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I'm not sure what you mean. There is one best line, other lines are for passing or avoiding. There is slow in and fast out if that's where you going with this. Then there is the oh **** I'm off the track line.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 10:48 AM   #3
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Assuming you aren't drastically leaving the race line (I.e. not straying more than a foot)
I think of it as a fairly simple approach, with a question

where do I want to get on the throttle?
There are really 3 different kinds of corners here, the third being neutral corners. Corners that can go either way. I almost always treat these the same as exit corners as more drive helps to lower lap times

So, an "Entry Corner" is one where you intend to get on the throttle late or, depending on the way the track goes, not at all. This is a corner where you intend to carry speed into the corner but not necessarily increase speed mid-late corner.

An "Exit Corner" is one where you intend to get on the throttle early to set up for getting a good drive. This is a more traditional approach, to get the bike slowed and set up to ride the rear wheel out of the corner.


I like the way Ken Hill phrases it as well, it's all about the proportion of the deceleration zone to the acceleration zone. An "Entry corner" is one where the deceleration zone is longer than the acceleration zone. While an "Exit corner" is one where the deceleration zone is shorter than the acceleration zone.

https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5347...s-exit-corners
https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5347...-entry-corners
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Old June 12th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #4
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Perfect. Thanks, Ben!

So at a track like Palmer, turns 4/5 (the steep uphill right-left) are exit corners. Short brake, long acceleration.

Turn 11 (the long, long left with the super-late apex at the end of the lap) is an entry corner.

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Old June 12th, 2017, 11:59 AM   #5
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My simplistic approach is an entry corner is one where I can brake late and pass on the brakes, vs an exit corner where I'll go into the corner more mellow and try to get on the gas hard coming out. Of course I think I tend to incorrectly make everything (with exception of course) into an entry corner as I feel more comfortable braking late with trail braking then getting hard on the gas. Turn 6 at Thompson I like to late brake into that 180 and pass on the brakes but find myself getting passed coming out of it.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 02:59 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirref View Post
Assuming you aren't drastically leaving the race line (I.e. not straying more than a foot)
I think of it as a fairly simple approach, with a question

where do I want to get on the throttle?
There are really 3 different kinds of corners here, the third being neutral corners. Corners that can go either way. I almost always treat these the same as exit corners as more drive helps to lower lap times

So, an "Entry Corner" is one where you intend to get on the throttle late or, depending on the way the track goes, not at all. This is a corner where you intend to carry speed into the corner but not necessarily increase speed mid-late corner.

An "Exit Corner" is one where you intend to get on the throttle early to set up for getting a good drive. This is a more traditional approach, to get the bike slowed and set up to ride the rear wheel out of the corner.


I like the way Ken Hill phrases it as well, it's all about the proportion of the deceleration zone to the acceleration zone. An "Entry corner" is one where the deceleration zone is longer than the acceleration zone. While an "Exit corner" is one where the deceleration zone is shorter than the acceleration zone.

https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5347...s-exit-corners
https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5347...-entry-corners
Now I understand the question. Good answer!
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Old June 12th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Perfect. Thanks, Ben!

So at a track like Palmer, turns 4/5 (the steep uphill right-left) are exit corners. Short brake, long acceleration.

Turn 11 (the long, long left with the super-late apex at the end of the lap) is an entry corner.

ive never been to the track in question, but according to the map, i would say you are correct.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 04:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain View Post
My simplistic approach is an entry corner is one where I can brake late and pass on the brakes, vs an exit corner where I'll go into the corner more mellow and try to get on the gas hard coming out. Of course I think I tend to incorrectly make everything (with exception of course) into an entry corner as I feel more comfortable braking late with trail braking then getting hard on the gas. Turn 6 at Thompson I like to late brake into that 180 and pass on the brakes but find myself getting passed coming out of it.
im am the same way,im trying to correct this. if you find a magic pill , let me know.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #9
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Mr. Fist,

Ben has got it, just be aware that was once a driving corner the previous lap can become an entry corner the very next.

Imho, it makes no difference if the corner is an entry, exit, driving, ect... ect.. corner. As long as the fundamentals are sound; it works and can be adjusted at the rider's free will to the situation at hand. I honestly see this type of wording when trying to help riders understand line, how corners can be linked together and find the compatible track rhythm that works with the rider.

Since Ben's answer was pretty good, what tool(s) in your box can you apply to these corners to swap their predetermined line and bike input aspects? aka, how can I turn a entry corner into a driving corner and vice versa if I need to get a pass made?
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Old June 14th, 2017, 04:47 AM   #10
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I'd say adjust the line to, in effect, alter the profile of the corner. To turn an entry corner into an exit ("driving") corner, you alter the line to start standing the bike up sooner, so you can get on the gas earlier.

IIRC there's a video out there called something like "Ride like Rossi" that addresses this. There's a qualifying line (the fastest way through the corner) and a racing line. They're different, because the latter has to account for passing (and not getting passed).
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Old June 15th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #11
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Imho, it makes no difference if the corner is an entry, exit, driving, ect... ect.. corner. As long as the fundamentals are sound; it works and can be adjusted at the rider's free will to the situation at hand. I honestly see this type of wording when trying to help riders understand line, how corners can be linked together and find the compatible track rhythm that works with the rider.

Since Ben's answer was pretty good, what tool(s) in your box can you apply to these corners to swap their predetermined line and bike input aspects? aka, how can I turn a entry corner into a driving corner and vice versa if I need to get a pass made?
Excellent. I agree that it doesn't really matter what kind of corner you are taking as long as the fundamentals are sound. This kind of terminology would come into play more in regards to racing IMO. You look at entry corners as potential places to pass or block the line from a pass...I'd also look at it as a place where you aren't as concerned with getting passed on the exit so you can stuff it up on the inside of someone for a pass or take an inside line to block a pass. To me entry corners are usually slower corners where you aren't likely to lose a tremendous amount of time.

Exit corners would signify places where the drive is most important and where you could make up more time. I was explaining race passing to someone this weekend- he was carrying more speed into turns but the rider in front was blocking the inside line for passing so this racer kept trying to go around the outside. I told him that he would have a better chance of getting by if he planned to get a better drive out of the corner and pass on the exit. Sometimes sacrificing a bit of speed going in will gain you the drive you need on the way out. Race Craft.

This leads into the answer to your question. The rider that was trying to make the pass couldn't do it on the inside of the tight *entry type corner because the lead rider was blocking the pass. SO if he changed his entry, took a more positive attack angle, sacrificed a bit of speed going in and worked on his drive coming out he could make that corner an exit corner and pass the rider on the exit.

The same rings true for what would be considered an exit corner....if you want to change it up then you can plan to pass on the inside going into the turn to disrupt the lead riders ability to get the best drive out.

This is good analysis of track layout for passing opportunities and how to alter your lines when the situation demands it. This is also why whenever possible, during practice I attempt to take the corner from different angles and different lines so I know what to expect when I dive up on the inside of someone for a tight pass.

What kinds of things would you need to alter if you stuff it up the inside of a rider at the beginning of a turn? What happens to the corner when you take this kind of line?
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Old June 15th, 2017, 11:43 AM   #12
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What kinds of things would you need to alter if you stuff it up the inside of a rider at the beginning of a turn? What happens to the corner when you take this kind of line?
Braking point and how hard you get on the brakes, because you're carrying more speed than the other guy.

Turn-in point, because he's at the one you would use if he weren't there.

Turn rate, because the corner is "tighter."

The corner changes its profile because you're entering from closer to the inside curb. In effect, it's as if the track leading up to the corner were narrower.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #13
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A lot of times you don't even need to change your line laterally, but change positioning longitudinally. Start coasting 2-3s sooner before braking to open up a gap 10-20ft. Follow them through corner, but get on gas 2-3s earlier than them. Just as you're about to rear-end them coming out of corner, move to inside/outside and pass them!
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Old June 21st, 2017, 07:52 AM   #14
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A lot of times you don't even need to change your line laterally, but change positioning longitudinally. Start coasting 2-3s sooner before braking to open up a gap 10-20ft. Follow them through corner, but get on gas 2-3s earlier than them. Just as you're about to rear-end them coming out of corner, move to inside/outside and pass them!
Your comment is one based in reality and experience I am sure but I would like to add more context if you please to increase the margin of safety of riders that read it.

The above comment makes some big assumptions that I feel need to be more clear.

1. As you exit the corner and are about to alter your line to make the pass, you need to REDUCED lean angle. - AKA... asking the bike to turn while hard on the throttle. This is a good way to tuck the front with significant lean.

2. You haven't planned ahead for your pass and drive down the straight or entry into the next corner. - AKA, this is where you make the pass, but then get passed right back in the next corner or drafted down the straight. It also means you "guessed" at what the lead rider was going to do. Normally, "last minute decisions on motorcycles going high rates of speed are riskier decisions."

3. Great riders NEVER "coast" - It is rare that one should coast while riding track. You should always be putting some input into the bike "on purpose." Even if you mean engine braking to finalize entry speed. Coasting should be mostly stricken from your track riding vocabulary. I remember reading somewhere... "Pads are cheap, engines are expensive."

4. The general comment above assumes the bike or traction is greater than the rider - During a track day event, one should be riding somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% ability, skill, available traction. Therefore, making a longitude move while altering your line works because you have a purposely built in buffer. During a race and riding at 100% or very near, this buffer may not be there and you may find yourself having an agricultural experience.

There are skills that a rider can learn and perfect that would provide the same result as the comment above without significantly increasing the risk factor. I will give you one of them and ask you to tell me the other.

Example 1: You have followed your normal line into a corner behind a rider. You got to the throttle sooner than the lead rider and have planned an outside pass. The "pick up" skill allows the rider to reduce lean angle and be more aggressive with the throttle sooner. The aggressiveness with the throttle tends to throw the bike wide on exit giving that rider a passing lane (hint, hint... you just steered with the rear!).

Example 2: You have followed your normal line into a corner behind a rider. You got to the throttle sooner than the lead rider and have planned an inside pass. How can you tighten your corner exit line without introducing much instability to the bike, maintain good throttle control and open an inside lane?
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Old June 21st, 2017, 08:03 AM   #15
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Bonus Question(s):

Are "bus stop" (sometimes referred to as "throw away") corners entry or exit?
What in the world does Misti mean by "Attack Angle?"
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Old June 21st, 2017, 10:05 AM   #16
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What in the world does Misti mean by "Attack Angle?"
I think her comment of "positive attack angle" = more upright/less lean?
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Old June 21st, 2017, 10:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
4. The general comment above assumes the bike or traction is greater than the rider - During a track day event, one should be riding somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% ability, skill, available traction. Therefore, making a longitude move while altering your line works because you have a purposely built in buffer. During a race and riding at 100% or very near, this buffer may not be there and you may find yourself having an agricultural experience.
We're not quite talking about exact same thing, I'll clarify. I'm talking about a situation where you're trying to overtake/pass someone using a corner to your advantage. First, if you can pass them, that means:
1. you're faster than them at your 100% pace AND
2. if you're going at their pace, you're at less than 100% of your pace, say... 90-95%
Let's take a specific example to illustrate this. Say I'm dueling with a 600 at a tight track... Laguna Seca. Only one long straight and rest is cornering with not much rest in between. Due to their faster straightaway speed, they get away, 50-100ft ahead down the straight. I have superior braking and cornering speeds....
1. I catch them under braking and make up gap... but... can't quite get a wheel ahead to pass before corner... then
2. I have to fall in behind them in corner and go around it at sub-maximum speed 80%. They go around @ 50mph, I can go 60mph.
So... result is I end up braking early at 95% so I fall in behind them entering corner rather than 100% and overlapping their rear wheel. And I go around the corner at 80% speed behind them. Exiting corner, they leave me behind and pull 50-100ft ahead. I know from lap-timers that I'm 0.5s faster than them per lap if we each had our own clear track.

To get around them, I need to change where I'm riding at 80-95%. Rather than doing it under braking and cornering, I shift that sub-maximum zone to just before the braking-marker:
1. Entering the braking-zone, I "coast" 2-seconds at 95% throttle, but not on brakes yet, to leave a 20-30ft gap between me and the 600 target

2. I do my regular 100% braking effort at usual brake-marker and close gap to 15-20ft

3. Entering corner, I take it at my regular 100% speed 60mph, a full 10mph faster than their 50mph cornering-speed

4. After a slightly-late apex, I start to straight-up and increase throttle. Being a 250, I'm at full-throttle somewhere after apex, but before complete end of corner

5. by the "exit" of corner, I'm almost fully-upright, 100% throttle and about to rear-end the 600 @ 70mph. This is the "exit" I'm talking about earlier, not tightening up line AT apex or after apex, but really just 10-20ft before straightaway.

6. Just as I'm about to rear-end the 600 in last 10-20ft of corner, I continue my cornering to get inside of them. Note that I'm NOT increasing lean to make a tighter line, I'm just not straightening up all the way right away.

7. I'm 15mph faster than them at this point and pass them on inside, both of us pretty much fully upright when pass happens. This extra 15mph helps me hold them off down the straight. They may or may not catch and pass me to next corner. And the process repeats itself.

I find my fastest laps are never in races due to having to take non-optimum lines to deal with other racers. The goal of the race is to finish ahead of other riders, not necessarily to put in fastest lap-times. Due to the nature of the interactions and zig-zags needed to pass people, your lap-times can never be as fast as if you're doing qualifying laps by yourself. AND if you're in the lead, you may not be going as fast as solo qualifying either. That's because you have to protect your inside lines under braking from drafting-mofos, thus taking you off the fastest lines around corners anyway.
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Old June 21st, 2017, 11:23 AM   #18
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Thanks for the clarification Danno!

Many new riders frequent this forum and a percentage of those riders will find themselves the track one day and remember what they read. My goal is to keep everyone as safe as possible. Lap times and winning races need not apply really as related to the op question but it is related in context. I meant no disrespect to your post as it IS based on real world experience imho, just want riders to think the why vs how, if you feel me.
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Old June 21st, 2017, 11:39 AM   #19
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Yup, thanks for adding details to a "simple" scenario I presented. For those with experience, it sounds easy enough. But to really execute it, requires multiple-steps done just right. That's part of the fun and challenge in racing, eh? Fine-tuning that knife-edge! But keep the rubber side down.. heh, heh...

hmm, maybe we should move these posts to a "Ninjettes @ Speed" thread...
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 08:20 PM   #20
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I think her comment of "positive attack angle" = more upright/less lean?
Attack angle basically means the angle at which you approach the turn in point.

This has a huge influence on how the corner is taken and what happens afterwards.

A negative attack angle essentially reduces the turn's entry radius. It makes the corner tighter than necessary. A positive attack angle does the opposite and opens up the entry radius, creating a better line through the corner.

If you approach a turn from a negative attack angle what are some examples of adjustments you'd have to make in oder to stay on line?
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 08:43 PM   #21
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Attack angle basically means the angle at which you approach the turn in point.

This has a huge influence on how the corner is taken and what happens afterwards.

A negative attack angle essentially reduces the turn's entry radius. It makes the corner tighter than necessary. A positive attack angle does the opposite and opens up the entry radius, creating a better line through the corner.

If you approach a turn from a negative attack angle what are some examples of adjustments you'd have to make in oder to stay on line?
Ooooh I want to answer this so bad but don't want to jump in on someone else's learning. My progress on 11 at the Ridge involved so much playing with this.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 10:37 AM   #22
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Ooooh I want to answer this so bad but don't want to jump in on someone else's learning. My progress on 11 at the Ridge involved so much playing with this.
Go for it! You're just as welcome as anyone else to answer, it's all about keeping the conversation alive and rolling.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 12:25 PM   #23
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I think terms I'm familiar with is shallow versus deep entry into corners...
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Old August 7th, 2017, 11:16 AM   #24
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Name: Misti
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Join Date: Oct 2010

Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard

Posts: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
I think terms I'm familiar with is shallow versus deep entry into corners...

Well you can still have a deep or late entry but what about the angle at which you approach that point?

Let's say you are making a tight right turn with a late apex. You are aiming for a late entry. You could approach the turn in point from straight on or you could come at it from what we call a negative attack angle, from the inside (right side) of the track. What happens to the turn when you approach from that kind of angle?
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