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Old April 24th, 2015, 05:42 PM   #1
johncrist1988
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Turned out to be the Cam Tensioner

EDIT #2: Turned out to be the cam tensioner. I ordered a Kreiger manual tensioner and will install it as soon as it comes in!

EDIT: Figured out it isn't the 'Kawi Click', but it seems to be the cam chain tensioner.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Can't tell if this is the Kawi Click I keep hearing about or if it's something more serious. Does anyone have any idea what that is?


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Old April 24th, 2015, 05:49 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncrist1988 View Post
[YOUTUBE][url ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNMjXHQYCsI[/url][ /YOUTUBE]

Can't tell if this is the Kawi Click I keep hearing about or if it's something more serious. Does anyone have any idea what that is?

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 24th, 2015, 05:59 PM   #3
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No that doesn't sound normal to me. Is that a motorcycle or a tractor?

My '04 has always had the "kawi click" you speak of, it sounds like a sewing machine under the gas tank. It's caused by the valves. Mine's nowhere near that loud though.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 06:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
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No that doesn't sound normal to me. Is that a motorcycle or a tractor?

My '04 has always had the "kawi click" you speak of, it sounds like a sewing machine under the gas tank. It's caused by the valves. Mine's nowhere near that loud though.

I didn't think it sounded normal, either. The thing is I don't know what it is. The cam chain or tensioner knocking against the casing? An expiring valve actuator (I don't remember off the top of my head what they're called)?
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Old April 24th, 2015, 06:09 PM   #5
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It's kinda hard to hear over the exhaust, but my first guess is that it needs a valve adjustment.

Does your bike have the stock mufflers, have the baffles been drilled?
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Old April 24th, 2015, 06:33 PM   #6
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It's kinda hard to hear over the exhaust, but my first guess is that it needs a valve adjustment.

Does your bike have the stock mufflers, have the baffles been drilled?
I'll be honest, I don't know if they're stock or not, and I'll need to Google what drilling the baffles means. I'll post pictures for you of the mufflers, though. That's something I CAN do :P

EDIT: My iPhone crashes whenever I hit the image button and using the IMG tag is posting full sized images and wrecking things, so until I figure out how to make this work, here are links. Sorry.

http://i.imgur.com/BrNEYH9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8HfYDxw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gch0cYX.jpg
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #7
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I did some reading on the subject of baffle drilling and I'm going to say they aren't drilled out, though I'll have to pull the mufflers off from what I understand in order to tell you definitely.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:01 PM   #8
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I going with needs a valve adjustment.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:04 PM   #9
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I going with needs a valve adjustment.
If that's all it is, and here's to hoping that's all it is, I have a gauge set coming in the mail from Amazon and I plan on giving it one next weekend. I'll be taking the valve cover off on Friday after work and after the engine cools and then Saturday morning I'll do the adjustment.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:11 PM   #10
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Probably valve adjustment but just curious does the sound get quieter if the clutch is pulled? Sounds like clutch chatter but hard to tell.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:13 PM   #11
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Probably valve adjustment but just curious does the sound get quieter if the clutch is pulled? Sounds like clutch chatter but hard to tell.
I didn't even think to check that. The learning phase of bike tinkering is so much fun As soon as I get back to the house I'll fire it up and try it.

EDIT: I'm trying to think back to my last commute. When I'm on the road I don't *think* it chatters. Let's pretend it's the clutch. Does that just mean I need new clutch plates?

I'm pretty sure on commutes it just goes like this:

Vum VroooooOOOOOOOOOM *shift* BaVraaaaaaAAAAAAAAAA!!!!m *shift* BumBraaaaaaAAAAAAA!!!!!!mmmmm
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:19 PM   #12
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Check your exhaust at the head,the clutch is more of knock on these bikes-which you can also hear.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #13
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Check your exhaust at the head,the clutch is more of knock on these bikes-which you can also hear.
For clarification, what exactly am I checking for? Just listening to see where the tapping is more pronounced?

I apologize for the noob question(s). Hopefully I don't wear out anyone's patience.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 08:14 PM   #14
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check your exhaust headers, if it's not that it just needs a valve adjustment

if that doesn't fix it then you have a real problem, but if you had a real problem it would probably not be running at all.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 08:28 PM   #15
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For clarification, what exactly am I checking for? Just listening to see where the tapping is more pronounced?

I apologize for the noob question(s). Hopefully I don't wear out anyone's patience.
There are 2 nuts at where the chrome exhaust meets at each pipe end at the engine. Check for tightness and look for signs of leak- either black soot or white soot. Also you can check the muffler clamps by the foot controls. May be just an exhaust leak.
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Old April 25th, 2015, 08:58 AM   #16
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I fired her up this morning and tried pulling the clutch. Same knock, no change. Granted I didn't warm it up the whole way, but I imagine the click would have gone away either way.

In the video I didn't look but after I pushed her back under my porch I checked for those two bolts and they're on and gripping strong. The clamps are also tight. I felt around with my hand (which I know isn't very scientific) and I didn't feel any air pushing out where it shouldn't be.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 29th, 2015, 08:08 AM   #17
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I caught some time last night after work to do the valve adjustment. I made sure all the valves were in spec between .005 and .006, put everything back together, and checked the exhaust. Everything is buttoned up nice with the exhaust on nice and tight.

I fired it all back up, and.....!



It all sounded exactly the same. The tick is still there and noticeable between 1k and 2.5k RPM. I hear it could be the cam chain tensioner and resetting it could temporarily help. Other than that I'm not sure what it could be. Everything drives fine and I ride it to work and back every day, and I don't know if that's a bad thing at this point.

EDIT: To get a new tensioner assembly and cam chain from the factory will cost me around $130. Might as well get it new I figure rather than FleeBay. What do you think? I hear of people re tightening their chains and doing repairs to their tensioner but I'd need to do more research to feel comfortable doing it.

Last futzed with by johncrist1988; April 29th, 2015 at 11:45 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 07:53 PM   #18
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I think it's the cam chain tensioner. I bought a manual CCT from kreiger and I am very happy with it. Its around 30 bucks and worth it. How many miles are on this bike?
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Old April 29th, 2015, 07:54 PM   #19
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Could also be a rod knock, that is the worst case scenario
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Old April 30th, 2015, 07:54 AM   #20
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Could also be a rod knock, that is the worst case scenario
Don't tell me that :P Let me live in la la land where it's the tensioner :P

The bike has 22k on it and I doubt the tensioner was ever cleaned. I'll be finding out after work today once the bike cools down from the ride home.

If it isn't that... Guess rod knock is the next possible solution. What else could it possibly be after that?

EDIT: Apparently it could be clutch basket slop, which I suppose I can check as soon as I can take a break.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #21
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That is the cam chain slapping the case cover. You need a new CTT, get an ape manual.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 08:00 AM   #22
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That is the cam chain slapping the case cover. You need a new CTT, get an ape manual.
I'll definitely Google that on your recommendation and get one. If you don't mind me asking, is there any catastrophic consequences in the short term to me just cleaning and resetting my current tensioner until the new one comes in? Just for humor, what would happen if I did *nothing* until the new one came in?
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Old April 30th, 2015, 08:08 AM   #23
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APE doesn't make a tensioner for pregens I believe. That's why I bought a kreiger one. But I wouldn't ride it or barely run it until you solve this problem. Short term you could probably reset it, but definitely order a manual one. The install is easy and it comes with instructions
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Old April 30th, 2015, 08:08 AM   #24
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You can try cleaning your stock hydraulic tensioner, it may buy you some time. How much time is questionable, maybe a little... maybe a lot, maybe none.

If the chain fails for any reason, you will most likely bend a valve. As bad as yours sounds, I would park it until you get the new tensioner.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 08:09 PM   #25
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Thumbs up

I went ahead and cleaned/reset the tensioner and it sounds perfectly normal now with no rattle whatsoever I'm going to go ahead and order a Kreiger tensioner and install it ASAP.

Thanks for all the help guys!
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Old April 30th, 2015, 08:11 PM   #26
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Old May 1st, 2015, 08:26 AM   #27
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I was told when I bought my EX-250 (back in 2007) that the cam chain tensioner has to work harder at some engine RPMs because of the engine's firing order (this info came from an aerospace engineer/math-nerd type).

The inline-2-cylinder, 180 degree crankshaft architecture of the EX-250 results in a "big-bang" engine: the two power pulses are only 180 degrees apart then there's nothing for the next 540 degrees of engine rotation. At low RPMs this really yanks the cam chain around a lot.

Like the OP in this thread noticed, the cam chain tensioner has to work really hard down at idle RPM to about 2.5k RPM to counteract the cam chain "lash" induced by the big-bang nature of this engine.

In the higher RPM range the cam chain tensioner doesn't get worked as hard because the inertia of the cam chain itself dampens out the "lash".
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Old May 1st, 2015, 08:31 AM   #28
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I was told when I bought my EX-250 (back in 2007) that the cam chain tensioner has to work harder at some engine RPMs because of the engine's firing order (this info came from an aerospace engineer/math-nerd type).

The inline-2-cylinder, 180 degree crankshaft architecture of the EX-250 results in a "big-bang" engine: the two power pulses are only 180 degrees apart then there's nothing for the next 540 degrees of engine rotation. At low RPMs this really yanks the cam chain around a lot.

Like the OP in this thread noticed, the cam chain tensioner has to work really hard down at idle RPM to about 2.5k RPM to counteract the cam chain "lash" induced by the big-bang nature of this engine.

In the higher RPM range the cam chain tensioner doesn't get worked as hard because the inertia of the cam chain itself dampens out the "lash".
That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you for sharing! The manual tensioner is on it's way and for giggles the next two YouTube videos I make will involve doing your own valve adjustment and how to remove and clean the OEM tensioner, both of which I didn't really find good conclusive videos on (the valve adjustment videos had either good valve adjustment instructions or good valve cover removal instructions, but not both in my opinion). I'll be sure to mention that fact when I do the tensioner video. That's good info to have and know.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 09:19 AM   #29
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The problem with having solved this noise is now the engine is largely quiet, and I can hear all the other rattles now :P Albeit they are very quiet rattles, I can hear the valves going. Knowing I just did a valve adjustment I'm fairly sure that's just how they sound and that's what people mean when they say the Ninjette has a noisy powerhouse. I can also tell that I have a little slop in my clutch basket because when I let the clutch out in 1st and start rolling that side of the engine hushes up even more.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 09:22 AM   #30
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Motorcycle engines are not known for the silent operation. They tick, clink and clank and that is normal. But like in your case, it shouldn't sound like a knockin', slappin' or bangin'. The only time it's questionable is when it's a tappin' sound. Most of those types of sounds are valve and exhaust stroke related.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 09:36 AM   #31
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Motorcycle engines are not known for the silent operation. They tick, clink and clank and that is normal. But like in your case, it shouldn't sound like a knockin', slappin' or bangin'. The only time it's questionable is when it's a tappin' sound. Most of those types of sounds are valve and exhaust stroke related.
Fortunately the little noises I hear now are very quiet noises. I'll post a video of it later. The loud clanking I had in the first video is completely gone now, so I'm guessing the rest is just normal operating noise, and it sounds divine in my opinion
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Old May 4th, 2015, 10:57 AM   #32
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How many miles does your bike have?
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Old May 5th, 2015, 06:12 AM   #33
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How many miles does your bike have?
22k
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Old May 5th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #34
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If I remember right, it is actually the Kawasaki Klunk, and it happens when you shift into gear.
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Old May 8th, 2015, 08:03 AM   #35
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If I remember right, it is actually the Kawasaki Klunk, and it happens when you shift into gear.
I've noticed that, too. When I shift down, starting at 6th:

Tick
Tick
Clack
Click
CLUNCK
Tack
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Old May 8th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #36
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even sitting stationary with the clutch pulled in the transmission shafts are spinning just a bit. The EX250 has a "wet clutch" so when you pull the clutch in the plates in the clutch basket are allowed to float out from each other but the oil-bath flows into these small gaps and provides a little bit of continuity, so the shafts spin (cold oil = more drag/spin, warm oil = less drag/spin).

with that happening you will feel the "dogs" of each gear ratio in the sequence engaging. the reason the "clunks" are more pronounced as you go down through the gears (6-5-4-3-2-1) is that the ratio-change is greater (i.e. 6th to 5th is a small ratio difference, but 2nd to 1st is a much larger ratio difference).
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:00 AM   #37
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Something that I don't understand is why the OEM tensioner is failing in the first place, and this is bothering the heck out of me. The manual tensioner stops the clicking, yes, but it doesn't answer why this is happening in the first place.

I ordered new springs for the CCT and installed it. Right away the clicking goes away, but after several miles the clicking will slowly start to return. I let it go, for kicks, and it got to a point where it sounded like someone was chewing through my casing with a chain saw. I'd stop, reset the tensioner, and it would all go away again.

I checked the bearings and they are good and round. There are no nicks in the plunger rod. The oil had no debris in it.

So why is the OEM tensioner failing? What am I missing here?
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Old May 27th, 2015, 08:55 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncrist1988 View Post
Something that I don't understand is why the OEM tensioner is failing in the first place, and this is bothering the heck out of me. The manual tensioner stops the clicking, yes, but it doesn't answer why this is happening in the first place.

I ordered new springs for the CCT and installed it. Right away the clicking goes away, but after several miles the clicking will slowly start to return. I let it go, for kicks, and it got to a point where it sounded like someone was chewing through my casing with a chain saw. I'd stop, reset the tensioner, and it would all go away again.

I checked the bearings and they are good and round. There are no nicks in the plunger rod. The oil had no debris in it.

So why is the OEM tensioner failing? What am I missing here?

I think this due in large part because Kawi doesn't list cam chain tensioner maintenance in their maintenance schedule... Or maybe I've over looked it or people don't make a big enough deal about it...

You change the oil, adjust the valves and maintain every other part of the bike. Only after I had to replace my cam chain did I realize that it too needs to be adjusted... Now the cam chain tensioner on the pregen is very basic when compared to the one on the new gen...

I got in the habit of rebuilding my cam chain tensioner with every valve adjustment. I actually got a second stock one from @Mamaru when he changed to a manual tensioner... So I can take my time rebuilding it and having it ready when I do the valves....

But the pre-gen's tensioner is so easy to take apart and rebuild it should just be added to the checklist for a valve adjust.

So, why does it "fail", because it's a sleeve within a sleeve, and getting oil up in there is difficult, never mind the fact that it doesn't have an active oiling system. I've done a few of these, and I put some Bel Ray axles grease on the spring and in the plunger and they are always happy when I take them out for the next valve adjust...

So, not sure it could be constituted as a "failure" on the parts end, maybe on the documentation and making people aware of it?

Either way, my bike is still singing with the stock cam chain tensioner at 60K, after an engine rebuild because the only way to replace the cam chain is to split the cases (or break the guide off the crank case) and while I was in there, why not? If you ever get a new-gen, good luck with rebuilding the tensioner though, it's a serious PITA...
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Old May 27th, 2015, 12:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncrist1988 View Post
Something that I don't understand is why the OEM tensioner is failing in the first place, and this is bothering the heck out of me. The manual tensioner stops the clicking, yes, but it doesn't answer why this is happening in the first place.

I ordered new springs for the CCT and installed it. Right away the clicking goes away, but after several miles the clicking will slowly start to return. I let it go, for kicks, and it got to a point where it sounded like someone was chewing through my casing with a chain saw. I'd stop, reset the tensioner, and it would all go away again.

I checked the bearings and they are good and round. There are no nicks in the plunger rod. The oil had no debris in it.

So why is the OEM tensioner failing? What am I missing here?
Sorry to hear that the problem is still ongoing. Here's a thought:

After reading your most recent post (quoted above) I'm wondering, have you measured the Cam Chain length? The reason I ask is that the parts that make up the Cam Chain Tensioner system are designed to interface with a Cam Chain that falls within a very narrow specification for overall length.


And now, one of my overall motorcycle ownership beliefs:

In spite of the fact that all of our Pre-Gen EX250 engines come from the same manufacturing assembly line, they still end up having individual personalities, individual problems... some are better, seemingly bulletproof while others are worse, so problematic they're close to "lemon" status.

Some of these Pre-Gen engines just keep on going, mile after mile like the Energizer Bunny, while others fail. I'm sure that some of this is out of our (the owner's) control but there is one thing that can change an engine's overall "personality" for the worse and that is when the engine's oil is allowed to go too long between changes or if the engine oil is allowed to get too low. Just once in the engine's lifetime is enough to start the decline. And when you're a second or third owner you just never really know if that has happened to your bike.
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Old May 31st, 2015, 08:58 AM   #40
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Greg - I do think you're on to something there. Even though they are supposed to be identical, it's clear that minor differences do seem to have a larger and larger effect over time. Makes me wonder about something that you'd have some insight into, actually - do you find something similar getting into aircraft? Do some fly markedly different than others, feel different, behave differently, even though on paper they are supposed to be the same plane built the same way by the same people?
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