New Kawasaki 4-cyl 250 in the works?!

[CZroe]

Saw this on David's Facebook page (@cerberusrex25):
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumo...four-cylinder/

According to the Indonesian publication TMC Blog, Kawasaki is working on a performance-oriented 250cc four-cylinder…and they have the supposed photos to prove it. The news should be well-received by those who remember the high-revving small-displacement Japanese machines of just a few decades ago.
Southeast Asian markets, like Indonesia’s, are driven by graduated taxes on motorcycle displacement. For the Indonesian market, machines 250cc to 500cc in displacement receive a 60% tax rate, while machine over 500cc are taxed at 75%. Unsurprisingly then, bikes under 250cc are accounting for the lion’s share of motorcycle sales.
Working against that taxation plan is the growing middle class in these regions, with consumers able to purchase more expensive motorbikes, and looking for more performance in the process. This trend is what helped bring the Yamaha R25 to market (and production) in Indonesia, along with the slew of other ~250cc machines we’ve seen from Honda, Kawasaki, and KTM.
Competition improves the breed, as they say, and with the small-displacement market in Southeast Asia becoming a hotbed of action for the Japanese OEMs, we once again may see some screamers from the Land of the Rising Sun. This bodes well for eclectic riders in the Western world, who yearn for small, light, relatively high-powered two-wheeled weapons.
Kawasaki seems to be poised to enter this space first with their four-cylinder machine, though expect the other OEMs to be hot on their heels. How high the revs will go is a matter of conjecture of course. It will be interesting to see how this news plays out though, but it certainly has our interest piqued.

[Somchai]

That's great news, even when I think with all the limitations nowaday the revs won't be that high like they've been (we had it before, but I post it again since it's like hell).

Link to original page on YouTube.

[kdogg2077]

Very interesting but we'll see if it comes out in Indonesia and THEN we'll have to see if it comes out here.

[choneofakind]

Regardless of if this happens or if it's just needless spewage of hot air, I love what competition has done so far for the <300cc market. I don't care if this is a total rumor or not, it means good things are happening for those of us who love small bikes.

More choices = more innovation = better bikes for us.

[CZroe]

Alls I knows is it's gots me all "Ah better hold off on dose plans tuh bah me a tree-hunerd."

That why big companies like to keep this stuff secret.

[choneofakind]

Wrong manufacturer, but I too will post a video purely for the sound:

Link to original page on YouTube.

dat sound.

[Sirref]

hmm, if this comes out at the right time I may sell my 300 for it. I'd have to test ride it though to ensure that it's worth it, less torque could make for a worse daily commuter but the extra top end could balance that out.

all in all, glad that these are making a comeback even if they don't come to the us

[capt_bugaloo]

Hmm. I don't know if I believe this rumour. They already have a 300 sport twin, a 250 dualie, and just introduced those new naked and faired 250 singles.

I guess it's possible, but most folks who want a small bike want something simpler and more basic. I know there are a few folks in Indonesia and around the world who would like a small light 4-cylinder, but I don't think there's a enough of a market there to invest in the manufacturing infrastructure.

[greenaero]

Interesting moto , unfortunately we will probably never see it here in North America. The taxing/displacment restrictions of the Asian markets creates these opportunities for the development of these high-tech 250s. Here we are seeing the displacement creep upward for our smaller displacement motos ( Ninja 300, now Honda cbr300 ). It's too bad but those are the realities of our marketplace. I personally would love to see the new Kawasaki single cylinder 250 sold here but it is also not likely to happen.

[Singh2jz]

Competition is so crazy, it might just work.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

Hmm. I don't know if I believe this rumour. They already have a 300 sport twin, a 250 dualie, and just introduced those new naked and faired 250 singles.

I guess it's possible, but most folks who want a small bike want something simpler and more basic. I know there are a few folks in Indonesia and around the world who would like a small light 4-cylinder, but I don't think there's a enough of a market there to invest in the manufacturing infrastructure.

Originally Posted by greenaero

Interesting moto , unfortunately we will probably never see it here in North America. The taxing/displacment restrictions of the Asian markets creates these opportunities for the development of these high-tech 250s. Here we are seeing the displacement creep upward for our smaller displacement motos ( Ninja 300, now Honda cbr300 ). It's too bad but those are the realities of our marketplace. I personally would love to see the new Kawasaki single cylinder 250 sold here but it is also not likely to happen.

Why can't it be both? Just like the 250L in Indonesia is a smaller version of the 300 and the Ninja 400 in Canada is a sleeved-down 650, why couldn't this also be a 375cc ZXR400 to replace the Ninja 400 and compete here with the 2-cyl CBR500? Even more displacement creep, I know, but obviously Honda thought the sub-600 market was ripe for two displacement sizes and I'd love to see the return of the ZXR400.

Remember: the Indonesian leaks regarding the 300/250L only talked about it from the 250 perspective.

[caltony]

Last time they produced the high speed high revving 250s some of them were sold in canada but none made it to the US. Don t know if Wiki still has the photos and specs but they were just awesome. 20000 rpms 150 mph.

Tony

[nickjpass]

I want.

[nickjpass]

Wait so if this was real, how much do you think this would cost? Eight grand? Six? About the same as a 300?

[Flying]

They would probably cost around the same as a supersport given the amount of engineering that has to go into these engines.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Wait so if this was real, how much do you think this would cost? Eight grand? Six? About the same as a 300?

If greater than 350cc on this continent:
For the US: Think CBR500+
For Canada: Replaces the Ninja 400 so probably more than that.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Flying

They would probably cost around the same as a supersport given the amount of engineering that has to go into these engines.

Would still have to be less than a 600cc SS.

[gantt]

these bikes appeal to me much more than the standard 600+ super sport. i would love to buy one. i would even consider buying one in canada and bringing it back.

[capt_bugaloo]

Originally Posted by CZroe

the Ninja 400 in Canada is a sleeved-down 650, .

The Ninja 400 was only sold in Canada and New Zealand. It sold poorly and was discontinued after just a couple of years. Why buy something that is identical to a 650 but with less power, when you can just go buy the 650?

A multi-cylinder 250 might make sense in a country like Indonesia that has severe tariffs and taxes on larger bikes, but IMHO I doubt it will even sell well there. I lived in Jakarta for a year, and I can tell you first-hand that Indonesia is a very poor country. Most folks there are lucky if they can afford a little 110cc step-thru - or a bicycle for that matter. I don't see the vast majority of riders there coming up with the extra money to buy a multi-cylinder 250 when they can buy a single or twin 250 for less money.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

The Ninja 400 was only sold in Canada and New Zealand. It sold poorly and was discontinued after just a couple of years. Why buy something that is identical to a 650 but with less power, when you can just go buy the 650?

Because they couldn't go out and get a 650. It was sold in response to some class-limiting rule in Quebec, IIRC. Besides, you are kinda arguing my point: a 4-cyl 400 is a lot more than just a sleeved down 650. The ZXR400 was sold in a lot more places when it was still on the market. They stopped selling it because the 300 closed in on it but a 4-cyl 400 would put some distance between them again.

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

A multi-cylinder 250 might make sense in a country like Indonesia that has severe tariffs and taxes on larger bikes, but IMHO I doubt it will even sell well there. I lived in Jakarta for a year, and I can tell you first-hand that Indonesia is a very poor country. Most folks there are lucky if they can afford a little 110cc step-thru. I don't see most riders there coming up with the extra money to buy a multi-cylinder 250 when they can buy a single or twin 250 for less money.

That's why I'm saying that it doesn't have to be a 250 here. A 4-cyl 400 slots right between a 2-cyl 500 (Honda CBR500) and a true 600, giving them an advantage and a reason to enter the CBR500's market. Heck, if they make it any larger they can nix the 2-cyl 650.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by caltony

Last time they produced the high speed high revving 250s some of them were sold in canada but none made it to the US. Don t know if Wiki still has the photos and specs but they were just awesome. 20000 rpms 150 mph.
Tony

you realize the bike would have to make over 70hp right?

What kind of numbers did the cbr250rr put out, I think I remember reading somewhere 40hp? if so that is sweet! A IL4 4t 350 or in that range would be the bees knees

[Hero Danny]

2 Extra carbs to deal with, no thanks.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

2 Extra carbs to deal with, no thanks.

if they were going through the trouble to make a mini SS I can't imagine it would not be EFI.

Regardless carbs are no big deal IMO

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by subxero

you realize the bike would have to make over 70hp right?

What kind of numbers did the cbr250rr put out, I think I remember reading somewhere 40hp? if so that is sweet! A IL4 4t 350 or in that range would be the bees knees

the cbr250rr put out ~38hp which is on par with the ninja 300. I'd imagine a newer I4 250 would put out around 50hp at peak.

He's probably thinking of the cbr400rr which had ~68hp

[cbinker]

I wouldnt hold my breath on it, Kawa just came out with the 300.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by cbinker

I wouldnt hold my breath on it, Kawa just came out with the 300.

Irrelevant if they are making it larger than 300 here.


Honda just came out with their 500 and yet they are bumping the 250 up to 300.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

2 Extra carbs to deal with, no thanks.

It would probably be Efi, but if you don't want one, don't buy it.

[quarterliter]

Can I get on a waiting list? I've seen dyno charts of a CBR 250RR with a yosh pipe at 43 HP, if I remember correctly.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

It would probably be Efi, but if you don't want one, don't buy it.

I'm sure you're right. I would be interested if it were fuel injected.. if it's carb'd then I will go to the 300

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by quarterliter

Can I get on a waiting list? I've seen dyno charts of a CBR 250RR with a yosh pipe at 43 HP, if I remember correctly.

It doesn't exist so no

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I'm sure you're right. I would be interested if it were fuel injected.. if it's carb'd then I will go to the 300

To each their own.

[caltony]

Originally Posted by subxero

you realize the bike would have to make over 70hp right?

What kind of numbers did the cbr250rr put out, I think I remember reading somewhere 40hp? if so that is sweet! A IL4 4t 350 or in that range would be the bees knees

All I remember ls that about 10 years ago I began to look for alight weight 250 cc sport bike.
A wiki search turned up Japanese 250s with various specs. One of the bikes from the big three was rated as being lighter in weight and more powerful than the others. When I couldnt find one in the US or Canada. I gave up, but the thought of a 250 sport bike stayed with until last year when I finally bought 06s. I really like the pregen. It is the lightest of the plated sportbikes and thats why I didn't go for the 08 and up.

If a lite weight 250 4 cyl became avail, id buy it if was light enough....right at or below the 300lb range would be what I would expect for a serious canadate. For something like that I would expect to pay at least $2000 more than the current 300. Light weight costs and lighter the weight the more it would cost.

Tony

[CZroe]

And what if it ends up being a 300lb 300-450cc bike?

[ninjamunky85]

For me to be interested it would have to be in the 400cc range, and around the same weight as the 300. A 250cc inline four would have a lot of potential as a track bike, but I don't think it would make for such a good street bike. A mildly tuned 300 is putting out similar power numbers, with the I4 250's making more top end HP, but he 300 is going to make more low end power, which makes it a better bike for every day riding.

A 400cc I4 that came in at around 375 lbs, and had all the high end bits that all the SS bike do would really tickle my fancy.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

For me to be interested it would have to be in the 400cc range, and around the same weight as the 300. A 250cc inline four would have a lot of potential as a track bike, but I don't think it would make for such a good street bike. A mildly tuned 300 is putting out similar power numbers, with the I4 250's making more top end HP, but he 300 is going to make more low end power, which makes it a better bike for every day riding.

A 400cc I4 that came in at around 375 lbs, and had all the high end bits that all the SS bike do would really tickle my fancy.

I agree completely, a modern efi 400cc I4 would be a perfect street oriented supersport.

I think the N300 and R6 combo is a good way to go though and unless something like that gets announced I think that's the way I'm going.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by caltony

If a lite weight 250 4 cyl became avail, id buy it if was light enough....right at or below the 300lb range would be what I would expect for a serious canadate. For something like that I would expect to pay at least $2000 more than the current 300. Light weight costs and lighter the weight the more it would cost.Tony

I seriously doubt that you will see a street legal sport bike come in at that weight, and no way for only 2k more than the 300. Duke 390

Might as well just get a supermoto. My 450 weighs about 275 lbs and makes more power than my 300.

[nickjpass]

Good luck getting a true (good condition, not a drz) supermoto for 6k.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by caltony

All I remember ls that about 10 years ago I began to look for alight weight 250 cc sport bike.
A wiki search turned up Japanese 250s with various specs. One of the bikes from the big three was rated as being lighter in weight and more powerful than the others. When I couldnt find one in the US or Canada. I gave up, but the thought of a 250 sport bike stayed with until last year when I finally bought 06s. I really like the pregen. It is the lightest of the plated sportbikes and thats why I didn't go for the 08 and up.

If a lite weight 250 4 cyl became avail, id buy it if was light enough....right at or below the 300lb range would be what I would expect for a serious canadate. For something like that I would expect to pay at least $2000 more than the current 300. Light weight costs and lighter the weight the more it would cost.

Tony

First don't believe everything you read on Wiki

Second streetable sport bikes under 320lbs are pretty rare
If we ever get the rc390, that would be your best bet, or duke if you don't mind going naked. Aprilia rs125's weigh in under 300lbs, with a good pipe, good tune and if you wanted to dig deep a bore and other engine work they easily make over 30hp. Would be super fun and an awesome track bike. They pop up for sale in Cali all the time. rs250 weights in the 325lb range, if I had the cash I would have one in the stable right now they are often available in Cali. Only down side with those bikes is routine maintenance but it is pretty easy work.

[Somchai]

Take a look what a guy in Germany did with his ZXR400, he brought the weight down from 388.256 lbs to 297.324 lbs what means at least 90.932 lbs less.
Here is his listing (it's in german): http://www.zxr400.de/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10841

[subxero]

^ how much did it cost him?

There is a LW thread here on the forum where some racers have cut some serious weight off the ninja but these are track only bikes and losing that much weight means hacking off brackets, tail section of frame ect... After you get done with the cheap and easy weight reductions you are only left with a few options and the price gets pretty steep.

CF wheels and other bits and Ti nuts and bolts. A Ti axle bolt and nut can cost over $500 alone, all to save no more than a lb.

in short yes, just about anything is possible but you gotta pay to play

[xorbe]

The problem with 600cc I4 is that at redline in each gear, speed is something like 90, 109, 128, 147, 166, 185 (mph).

How would they gear a 250cc I4? Can you hit redline in 2nd gear at 63 mph? Then one could, you know, actually enjoy the high-revving I4 engine without traveling at organ donor speeds.