Engaging clutch to shift..

Penguin250 · May 13th, 2011, 02:35 PM

So I was watching a video to learn how to shift gears on bikes before I got mine. He was saying how it's not totally necessary to engage the clutch to upshift after you get into and passed 2nd.

Now I have 2 things brought to my attention. My 2011 250 won't shift.. up/down/left/upsidedown.. period unless you engage the clutch, but that doesn't bother me, cause where's the fun if you aren't doing it the whole nine yards. The thing is, we got my girlfriend's 2010 250 last week, and she's been riding it and shifting without engaging the clutch. She got on mine and says she hates it cause it doesn't shift right because the clutch has to be engaged. Well I asked her about it and it even seems like she can downshift without engaging the clutch. I am under the impression it should be impossible to downshift without using the clutch.

Can I get some opinions on

Should she use the clutch to upshift (will it hurt anything)?
Should the bike even be able to be downshifted without using the clutch?
Are there any big differences between 2010 and the 2011 years that I absolutely have to use the clutch when she doesn't? (again not complaining, I like going through the routine, would just like to know)

Alex · May 13th, 2011, 02:41 PM

Couple things here. You're right, there shouldn't be a difference between your bike and hers. Nothing changed in the transmission or clutch from 2010 - 2011. The only thing that might be different is the amount of freeplay at the lever, and amount of clutch wear if she has put on many more miles on the 2010. Any other difference would mean there might be something else going on.

Upshifting without the clutch is definitely possible, and it's smoother in the higher gears and if you slightly roll off while engaging the next gear with your foot. With practice, it can be quite smooth. Downshifting without the clutch isn't ever going to be that smooth, and it is certainly putting more wear into the gearbox. Not generally recommended.

Penguin250 · May 13th, 2011, 03:36 PM

Okay, thanks! Both are brand new bikes. I got mine with 2 miles and hers with 4. So not sure what it going on with mine then. Any ideas? Should I have it looked at since/while its still under warranty?

Cuongism · May 13th, 2011, 03:39 PM

It can also be that your gear shift lever is adjusted differently (I imagine you have bigger feet than her). Easiest way to clutchless upshift is to preload the shift lever, so it might be harder for her to do it on your bike since your lever is higher.

Alex · May 13th, 2011, 03:58 PM

Yup, I'm with Cuong. Clutch lever free-play and gear-shift lever adjustment are about all that can be done externally to at least start looking for differences.

backinthesaddleagain · May 13th, 2011, 05:50 PM

Never saw the attraction of clutchless upshifting in a non race situation. Also to be a stickler pulling in the clutch lever disengages the clutch. Some old parts manuals call the lever a declutching lever fwiw. Just use the clutch and have fun!
Posted via Mobile Device

kkim · May 13th, 2011, 08:29 PM

personally, I think all ninja 250Rs should come with EFI and automatic transmissions. Learn to use a clutch!!?? unthinkable!!

while we're at it... how about a button on the bike that will automatically parallel park it for you??

Penguin250 · May 14th, 2011, 09:55 PM

haha Yea, like I said, I enjoy the clutching, she just doesn't want to ride the prettier white bike because the levers are different and she says its harder to change gears. I'm just trying to decide if I wanna find something wrong with a new bike. :/
Posted via Mobile Device

Live2ride · May 14th, 2011, 10:05 PM

I never clutchless shift with my bike, I have tried once before and it took a lot of strength to press the shifter up, almost all the strength I had and, if I remember correctly, I actually had to slightly pull the clutch for it to shift. I don't see why people would shift without the clutch in the first place, it's there for a reason. The one time I tried that clutchless shift I felt like I was breaking my bike.

Cuongism · May 14th, 2011, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live2ride

I never clutchless shift with my bike, I have tried once before and it took a lot of strength to press the shifter up, almost all the strength I had and, if I remember correctly, I actually had to slightly pull the clutch for it to shift. I don't see why people would shift without the clutch in the first place, it's there for a reason. The one time I tried that clutchless shift I felt like I was breaking my bike.

Live2ride · May 14th, 2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuongism

[img]http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/doing_it_wrong_bike.jpg[/img ]

It's not wrong if you fly off like superman while your in the air, which I can do. Just take my word for it

. How could anyone possibly clutchless shift wrong? You either pull the foot up or push it down...

p.s. yea, I know i messed up your link in my quote, i did it on purpose

Cuongism · May 14th, 2011, 10:26 PM

Clutchless shifting isn't just pushing the lever up or down, it's also a little throttle control. The reason why the lever was hard for you to shift up is because you have to unload the engine. Think of it as a reverse blip. The advantage of a clutchless upshift is that it's smoother and less clutch wear when done correctly. The disadvantage is you can damage your bike if done incorrectly.

If you want to try it out, get into 2nd or 3rd gear and start accelerating. Preload your shift lever by pressing up on lever and then quickly roll off the throttle and then back to accelerating really quickly. The gear will shift up quickly and shouldn't take any effort.

Edit:

Here's a video I found when quickly searching youtube that demonstrates it. I didn't really watch it though since it looks long

Link to original page on YouTube.

Mr.E · May 14th, 2011, 10:44 PM

Just for he record, I could have sworn hearing in dozens of motovloggs that down shifting without the clutch is horrible for your bike. Up is ok, but down u should always use clutch. I could b wrong though. But I'm pretty sure that's what I've heard

Live2ride · May 14th, 2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuongism

Clutchless shifting isn't just pushing the lever up or down, it's also a little throttle control. The reason why the lever was hard for you to shift up is because you have to unload the engine. Think of it as a reverse blip. The advantage of a clutchless upshift is that it's smoother and less clutch wear when done correctly. The disadvantage is you can damage your bike if done incorrectly.

If you want to try it out, get into 2nd or 3rd gear and start accelerating. Preload your shift lever by pressing up on lever and then quickly roll off the throttle and then back to accelerating really quickly. The gear will shift up quickly and shouldn't take any effort.

I know how to clutchless shift, lol. I've done it before, on my bike it just doesn't seem to work. Idk what it is but it simply doesn't want to move out of gear without the clutch...but I don't mind it. If I ever feel the need to do it I may try to figure out if my bike just simply shifts differently from others I've ridden. I'll see one day, maybe I can try that when it stops raining for more than 10-15 minutes at a time

.

rockNroll · May 15th, 2011, 04:46 AM

Oh man. To the OP... you DISengage the clutch to shift. The clutch is engaged while you are riding

There's nothing wrong with shifting without disengaging the clutch if it's done right. It's about personal preference. Sometimes it's just fun to do too. If someone is riding one of these Ninjas and can't get it, they should probably just stick to using the clutch.

ScorpionNinja · May 24th, 2011, 05:01 PM

#1 Rev RPMs to 11,000.
#2 then shift into 1st gear.

#3 Rev RPMs to 12,500.
#4 then shift into 2nd gear.

repeat #3 until your in 6th gear!

ally99 · May 25th, 2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live2ride

I never clutchless shift with my bike, I have tried once before and it took a lot of strength to press the shifter up, almost all the strength I had and, if I remember correctly, I actually had to slightly pull the clutch for it to shift. I don't see why people would shift without the clutch in the first place, it's there for a reason. The one time I tried that clutchless shift I felt like I was breaking my bike.

It doesn't feel like that if you're doing it right. Clutchless is an art, but it really speeds up and smooths out your upshifts. LOVE clutchless after 1st gear. Which actually makes me think, I'm sure you DID feel like you were breaking the bike if you tried it from 1st-2nd. Try it in the upper gears, particularly when you're really getting on the throttle. When done correctly, clutchless is better on your transmission.

Boom King · May 25th, 2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ally99

When done correctly, clutchless is better on your transmission.

Interesting, haven't heard that before. I'm sure this only applies to up shifts though?

n4mwd · May 25th, 2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin250

So I was watching a video to learn how to shift gears on bikes before I got mine. He was saying how it's not totally necessary to engage the clutch to upshift after you get into and passed 2nd.

It sounds like this is a first bike for you. The best thing is to just use the clutch and shift normally. It doesn't hurt anything, but it does hurt to shift without the clutch if you don't do it right.

Clutchless shifting takes a bit of skill because you have to align the RPM's and speed nearly exactly. I have seen a lot of those videos like you describe but they are all wrong. A beginner should never attempt clutchless shifting. Even after you get more riding skills, you should still use the clutch. If you start professionally racing your bike where every split second counts, then do clutchless shifting.

I always use the clutch and I have no problem leaving cruisers in the dust. That's good enough for me. I can't beat a bigger Ninja so why bother trying.

ally99 · May 28th, 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom King

Interesting, haven't heard that before. I'm sure this only applies to up shifts though?

Yes. Clutchless downshifts are not known to be great for your tranny, even done correctly. Upshifts, however, are smoother and easier on the tranny (again, only when done correctly!).

alex.s · May 29th, 2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ally99

Yes. Clutchless downshifts are not known to be great for your tranny, even done correctly.

unless you slam the throttle with a slipper... *innocent look*

seriously though on the 250 i only really use the clutch on 1st going up, and 1st and 2nd going down. (although i do feed the tiniest bit of clutch going down... no where near disengaged) but nowadays i don't commute or ride casually on the 250... its mainly only for the twisties now.
even if you do use the clutch to its fullest capabilities when shifting, you should still be doing the same throttle control as you would without the clutch.

my procedure: pressure on the shifter first, the tiniest tiny bit of clutch if any, then last but not least; proper throttle input. the bike doesn't shift until the throttle input is given to unlock the engine. the clutch makes the rev change smoother on the engine.

bdavison · May 29th, 2011, 11:31 AM

Bear in mind too that the shift point on these bikes doesnt even start until you hit 7500rpms...around 8g, it will drop right into the next gear easily with no clunking.

If you are trying to shift under 7g, even with the clutch, it will clunk.

n4mwd · May 29th, 2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdavison

Bear in mind too that the shift point on these bikes doesnt even start until you hit 7500rpms...around 8g, it will drop right into the next gear easily with no clunking.

If you are trying to shift under 7g, even with the clutch, it will clunk.

Interesting, but I would be seriously worried about my synchros wearing out prematurely. Unless the RPMs are exactly right for the speed, they are going to take a beating.

Then again, for a new rider like the OP, I think he should concentrate on riding skills first before he worries about fancy stuff.

alex.s · May 29th, 2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Interesting, but I would be seriously worried about my synchros wearing out prematurely. Unless the RPMs are exactly right for the speed, they are going to take a beating.

Then again, for a new rider like the OP, I think he should concentrate on riding skills first before he worries about fancy stuff.

it's not a car.

edit: i guess thats too vague. motorcycle transmissions use constant mesh not synchros.

n4mwd · May 29th, 2011, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

it's not a car.

edit: i guess thats too vague. motorcycle transmissions use constant mesh not synchros.

I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out!

I looked up how bike transmissions work. Actually, both cars and bikes use constant mesh transmissions. That just means that the gears are always meshed together and are selectively locked/unlocked from the shaft. I think the term you meant to say was that bikes are sequential gearboxes.

The difference is in how they lock and unlock the gears to the shaft. Cars use synchros, but bikes use dogs.

Here is a photo of a male dog gear:

Which mates with a female dog gear:

I got all this from this site.

From that site:

Quote:

There are two common problems that develop with motorcycle transmissions.

1. Each time the dogs are allowed to grind the rider is wearing just a little bit off of them. Those 'pegs' get shorter and shorter (or the holes become more elongated) until the transmission will no longer stay in a particular gear or it pops out of a gear. This is 'most' common between 1st and 2nd gear for some reason.

2. The rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever. When this happens the dogs might be pressed hard against the gear in the solid space between slots. Look at the top animation again and notice the green shift fork. That fork can be bent and, as you can see from the animation if the fork is bent backward (to the right in this picture) it probably isn't going to completely engage the dogs. Result, the transmission will pop out of gear. If the dogs just barely release you'll not only be back in neutral but could hear a lot of grinding with the dogs rubbing against the slots.

So the bottom line is that you can harm your transmission dogs if you improperly shift without a clutch.

.

Havok · May 29th, 2011, 08:03 PM

I clutch less shift all the time on both the Fazer and the Ninjette, WOT then quick off the throttle shift and back on the throttle and it is smooth as hell, just have to work that throttle properly, Its a very fast on and off blink of an eye move. Much better acceleration not using the clutch lol.

May 13th, 2011, 03:58 PM	#5
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Yup, I'm with Cuong. Clutch lever free-play and gear-shift lever adjustment are about all that can be done externally to at least start looking for differences. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

May 14th, 2011, 10:05 PM	#9
Live2ride ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Cody Location: NoVa Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 06 yzf r6r previously: 09 ninja 250r, black 07 zx6r Posts: A lot.	I never clutchless shift with my bike, I have tried once before and it took a lot of strength to press the shifter up, almost all the strength I had and, if I remember correctly, I actually had to slightly pull the clutch for it to shift. I don't see why people would shift without the clutch in the first place, it's there for a reason. The one time I tried that clutchless shift I felt like I was breaking my bike. __________________________________________________

May 14th, 2011, 10:26 PM	#12
Cuongism ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Cuong Location: San Diego Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250r, 2007 Daytona 675 Posts: A lot.	Clutchless shifting isn't just pushing the lever up or down, it's also a little throttle control. The reason why the lever was hard for you to shift up is because you have to unload the engine. Think of it as a reverse blip. The advantage of a clutchless upshift is that it's smoother and less clutch wear when done correctly. The disadvantage is you can damage your bike if done incorrectly. If you want to try it out, get into 2nd or 3rd gear and start accelerating. Preload your shift lever by pressing up on lever and then quickly roll off the throttle and then back to accelerating really quickly. The gear will shift up quickly and shouldn't take any effort. Edit: Here's a video I found when quickly searching youtube that demonstrates it. I didn't really watch it though since it looks long Link to original page on YouTube. Last futzed with by Cuongism; May 14th, 2011 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Added video

May 15th, 2011, 04:46 AM	#15
rockNroll . Name: rock Location: greenville, south carolina Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): black Posts: A lot.	Oh man. To the OP... you DISengage the clutch to shift. The clutch is engaged while you are riding There's nothing wrong with shifting without disengaging the clutch if it's done right. It's about personal preference. Sometimes it's just fun to do too. If someone is riding one of these Ninjas and can't get it, they should probably just stick to using the clutch. __________________________________________________ Always get a second opinion because most of these people are makin' this stuff up

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May 13th, 2011, 02:35 PM	#1
Penguin250 ninjette.org member Name: Walt Location: South Carolina Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 White Ninja 250R, 2010 Galaxy Blue Colorshift Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Engaging clutch to shift.. So I was watching a video to learn how to shift gears on bikes before I got mine. He was saying how it's not totally necessary to engage the clutch to upshift after you get into and passed 2nd. Now I have 2 things brought to my attention. My 2011 250 won't shift.. up/down/left/upsidedown.. period unless you engage the clutch, but that doesn't bother me, cause where's the fun if you aren't doing it the whole nine yards. The thing is, we got my girlfriend's 2010 250 last week, and she's been riding it and shifting without engaging the clutch. She got on mine and says she hates it cause it doesn't shift right because the clutch has to be engaged. Well I asked her about it and it even seems like she can downshift without engaging the clutch. I am under the impression it should be impossible to downshift without using the clutch. Can I get some opinions on Should she use the clutch to upshift (will it hurt anything)? Should the bike even be able to be downshifted without using the clutch? Are there any big differences between 2010 and the 2011 years that I absolutely have to use the clutch when she doesn't? (again not complaining, I like going through the routine, would just like to know)

May 13th, 2011, 02:41 PM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Couple things here. You're right, there shouldn't be a difference between your bike and hers. Nothing changed in the transmission or clutch from 2010 - 2011. The only thing that might be different is the amount of freeplay at the lever, and amount of clutch wear if she has put on many more miles on the 2010. Any other difference would mean there might be something else going on. Upshifting without the clutch is definitely possible, and it's smoother in the higher gears and if you slightly roll off while engaging the next gear with your foot. With practice, it can be quite smooth. Downshifting without the clutch isn't ever going to be that smooth, and it is certainly putting more wear into the gearbox. Not generally recommended. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

May 13th, 2011, 03:36 PM	#3
Penguin250 ninjette.org member Name: Walt Location: South Carolina Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 White Ninja 250R, 2010 Galaxy Blue Colorshift Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Okay, thanks! Both are brand new bikes. I got mine with 2 miles and hers with 4. So not sure what it going on with mine then. Any ideas? Should I have it looked at since/while its still under warranty?

May 13th, 2011, 03:39 PM	#4
Cuongism ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Cuong Location: San Diego Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250r, 2007 Daytona 675 Posts: A lot.	It can also be that your gear shift lever is adjusted differently (I imagine you have bigger feet than her). Easiest way to clutchless upshift is to preload the shift lever, so it might be harder for her to do it on your bike since your lever is higher.

May 13th, 2011, 05:50 PM	#6
backinthesaddleagain ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Greg Location: Rhode Island Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 ZX6R 636 Posts: A lot.	Never saw the attraction of clutchless upshifting in a non race situation. Also to be a stickler pulling in the clutch lever disengages the clutch. Some old parts manuals call the lever a declutching lever fwiw. Just use the clutch and have fun! Posted via Mobile Device

May 13th, 2011, 08:29 PM	#7
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	personally, I think all ninja 250Rs should come with EFI and automatic transmissions. Learn to use a clutch!!?? unthinkable!! while we're at it... how about a button on the bike that will automatically parallel park it for you??

May 14th, 2011, 09:55 PM	#8
Penguin250 ninjette.org member Name: Walt Location: South Carolina Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 White Ninja 250R, 2010 Galaxy Blue Colorshift Ninja 250R Posts: 60	haha Yea, like I said, I enjoy the clutching, she just doesn't want to ride the prettier white bike because the levers are different and she says its harder to change gears. I'm just trying to decide if I wanna find something wrong with a new bike. :/ Posted via Mobile Device

May 14th, 2011, 10:44 PM	#13
Mr.E That rider dude. Name: Eric Location: Orlando, Fl. Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 White Ninja 250 SE. Posts: A lot.	Just for he record, I could have sworn hearing in dozens of motovloggs that down shifting without the clutch is horrible for your bike. Up is ok, but down u should always use clutch. I could b wrong though. But I'm pretty sure that's what I've heard

May 24th, 2011, 05:01 PM	#16
ScorpionNinja ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Dave Location: Michigan Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 650RTE & 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R (SOLD) Posts: A lot.	#1 Rev RPMs to 11,000. #2 then shift into 1st gear. #3 Rev RPMs to 12,500. #4 then shift into 2nd gear. repeat #3 until your in 6th gear!

May 29th, 2011, 11:31 AM	#22
bdavison Wartown, USA Name: Bryan Location: Warner Robins, GA Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R SE, 2007 Ninja 650R, and assorted other bikes Posts: A lot.	Bear in mind too that the shift point on these bikes doesnt even start until you hit 7500rpms...around 8g, it will drop right into the next gear easily with no clunking. If you are trying to shift under 7g, even with the clutch, it will clunk.

May 29th, 2011, 08:03 PM	#26
Havok Internet Slut Name: Jeff Location: L.A. Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 04 FZ1, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.	I clutch less shift all the time on both the Fazer and the Ninjette, WOT then quick off the throttle shift and back on the throttle and it is smooth as hell, just have to work that throttle properly, Its a very fast on and off blink of an eye move. Much better acceleration not using the clutch lol.