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Old January 15th, 2018, 11:20 AM   #161
Ducati999
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Update

Just checking in prior to the 2018 season. I am now running my own business and spare time is a luxury! I am putting in tons of work now so I can take time of to go to the track once the weather turns nice! I am still trying my best to stick to my diet (holiday food makes it difficult) and exercise. I will be in better physical shape this season which is a victory in itself! I made the decision not to make any significant changes to the bike for this season so I have a consistent starting point.

One thing I did want to mention in this update (and I hope it will spark a debate/discussion) is what I realized re-watching my crash video. I know my body position is not perfect but it gets me by for now and will improve this season. My lines at the track are fairly good and, except for my crash mistake, my throttle control is acceptable. What I am saying is, on an average track day I get around the track a quick (for me) and safe pace. When I crashed I had an issue with not getting my foot not fully back onto the peg. This caused me to not be able to get off the bike as far as I normally would. I was traveling a little faster than average on the lap I crashed on and the added speed along with not being able to get off the bike as far as normal meant I was leaning the bike over farther than I normally would have been at the same point in the turn. When I rolled on the throttle, I was way to aggressive, and with the bike over further and therefore more on the edge of the tire, the rear broke free. This tells me that had I been off the bike more and less on the edge of the tire and smoother with the application of the same amount of throttle, I would not have broken the rear tire free and would not have crashed. This was a huge revelation to me! I am looking for an idea of how much more I can "push" before I find the "Edge of traction". Lets say I added 40% throttle quickly while further over, should I do the same just rolling on slower and not leaned over as far, the rear would have held. I would not go out and try 40% again even very slowly but I would confidently add 10% more throttle in a smooth and constant roll on. Please speak up if you believe I am wrong. Watch my video and consider the final roll on to be about 40% added quickly then let me know if I am thinking correctly. I feel this would be easily handled by the rear tire as I was running all day without the tire slipping until I added way too much too fast. Should I had just rolled the same amount of throttle on slower I would have been lifting the bike up before there was enough power applied to break the rear free. I also want to add that I know to continue to roll on this is just at the moment where I crashed and the 1-2 seconds following. Please discuss
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Old January 15th, 2018, 11:37 AM   #162
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I believe your assessment is correct; too much-throttle increase for lean-angle.

As for hanging-off itself, I find I don't need any weight at all on inside-peg to hang off. These are independent motions. Weighting peg is fine-tuning action to adjust lean-angle when you're already in corner. I can weight inside peg with body leaned-over OR in-line with bike. Most of my weight is still supported by outside-leg on tank. There's been times where I've scraped off my inside foot (hitting bump, getting squeezed from outside by someone and tightening line, etc.), and bike doesn't change trajectory... much.

As for getting on throttle, yes, I think smaller incremental steps is key. Rather than 40%, I think of it as a progression:

- 10% at this spot coming out of corner,
- 25% at this next spot,
- 50% at this next spot,
- 100% here!

Then each lap, I increase the rate of throttle-increase little more and more, 15%, 30%, 55%, 100% 10ft earlier, etc. At some point, I find front/rear-end starting to waggle. I make note of throttle-angle and position on track. That's still not the limit, because it's only single section of entire arc coming out of turn. Next time, I can try increasing throttle little before and little after that spot. After a while, my throttle-opening might progress to 17%, 35%, 55%, 100% 12ft, etc. This is where datalogging really comes in handy.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 01:51 PM   #163
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Ant, in your PM to me today you used the following phrase regarding my hesitancy to get on the throttle:

Quote:
"...if I can abruptly roll 75% throttle mid turn while leaned over, you have a metric on how much you should be able to "safely" roll on."
Choosing that word... "abrupt"... says something about the mindset for both of us. Scares the hell out of me but not you. Not a word I would ever apply to track riding. So I think you're looking at it the right way this year by being more mindful of how smoothly you add power.

I think we're both looking for the same thing, but coming at it from different starting points.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 02:01 PM   #164
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I think there's something to be done about corner-entry first before addressing this exit roll-on. Abrupt roll-off mid-corner would tend to indicate something got messed up on corner entry. Combined with earlier comments about cornering too slowly and making up for it with too much throttle. I suspect if corner-entry was cleaned-up with more consistency, there would be fewer issues with abrupt roll-off mid-corner and fewer issues with roll-on of throttle existing corner.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 09:31 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Ant, in your PM to me today you used the following phrase regarding my hesitancy to get on the throttle:



Choosing that word... "abrupt"... says something about the mindset for both of us. Scares the hell out of me but not you. Not a word I would ever apply to track riding. So I think you're looking at it the right way this year by being more mindful of how smoothly you add power.

I think we're both looking for the same thing, but coming at it from different starting points.


Andrew,
My example was from my crash---so abrupt was the cause. My statement was that I added lots of throttle on my bike (which has lots more torque than your bike) while leaned over and that caused my crash ---meaning that from 0 to lets just say 60% I still had traction. That is the metric I was referring to for you to use. The fact that I quickly added lots of throttle and crashed should show you that if you slowly add some at a slower rate there is no danger. I stated in the PM. that it was difficult to get the concept across. I have been riding on the track for several years now and I mistakenly added too much throttle too fast--not my normal way around and not something I intend to repeat!
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Old January 16th, 2018, 12:01 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
I think there's something to be done about corner-entry first before addressing this exit roll-on. Abrupt roll-off mid-corner would tend to indicate something got messed up on corner entry. Combined with earlier comments about cornering too slowly and making up for it with too much throttle. I suspect if corner-entry was cleaned-up with more consistency, there would be fewer issues with abrupt roll-off mid-corner and fewer issues with roll-on of throttle existing corner.

Mr Ryann,
I do not speak for ADouglas but as for myself, you are right. I am still relatively new to the track and have been working (see all above posts) to improve every aspect of my riding at the track. I have been riding a motorcycle since I was 20 and am now nearly 50, old habits (street riding) are hard to break. I do my best to be consistent every lap (ADouglas is much better here) but my corner entry is still far from perfect. I would love to enter the same turn at the same spot with the same vector, always at the same (or about the same) speed. I am just not there yet. I do the best I can to be right where I should be on the right line with the right entry speed but this is part of the issue for sure. The roll on mid turn, or where ever appropriate, is just the issue Adouglas was dealing with in another thread and I had commented on this with a private message.

Now I have been working out this issue in my head for the last few months and I have even sat on my bike on the stand and run thru the track in my head while having my hands, feet and butt on the bike. I see the biggest issue for me to be the unknown limit of grip for the front tire--hence the name of this thread. Let me explain. When I enter a large radius turn (to simplify the issue) with speed, the issue begins. I begin to add lean angle while maintaining enough throttle to just slowly lose speed, as the turn tightens and lean increases, but not a roll off to load the front. This is where I am worried I may be going faster than last lap and don't want to lose the front (not sure of how much load it can take). Once The bike gets to the point where I am certain I can roll on (proper slow smooth and continuous)throttle, I crack the throttle and transfer the load to the rear tire to complete the turn and accelerate away. Because of the lack of ?trust? in the front tires load capacity, usually more speed will be sacrificed than should have been and it becomes easy to want to make this up with more throttle. I know I should just get on the power earlier but the lack of experience causes hesitation waiting till I know I have reached the "safe" spot "reference point" where I know I will make the turn.

I hope that makes sense to you as I am not great at explaining thru writing. Feel free to discuss as I always want to learn and my feelings will not be hurt with anything you may point out.

Ant
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Old February 13th, 2018, 01:35 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
Misty,

Comment on Drawing the track: I had no Idea what the track looked like for the first half of the day, so no way to even begin to draw it at that point. I had not ridden a motorcycle for an entire year before this trip and did not even have any time to watch the videos of the track.

Just before lunch someone handed me a map of the track and I spent lots of time between sessions studying it, which made a big difference for the remainder of the day. I still was out of practice but at least I knew where I was going!

As always "Thank you for your time and comments" I will continue to learn how to be a better rider and with help from you and many others on this site, I feel I improve every time I ride!
You're welcome But I want to say something about your comment on drawing the track. When you have no idea what the track looks like is the PERFECT time to try and draw it. That is the point. You have no idea what it looks like so coming in from practice and drawing WHATEVER you remember will help you learn the track quicker than waiting to draw it after you have learned it.....does that make sense?

When I went to a new track for racing (I had exactly one day to learn the track and then try and qualify for an AMA race the next day) I never studied track maps or watched videos before hand. I went out in practice behind someone who offered to give me a tow around and when I came in I drew (terribly) whatever I could remember. Even if I got it completely wrong or only drew the first 2 turns or whatever, I drew what I could remember and that made me really think and utilize my memory and focus. After the first attempt at drawing I would realize that I had nothing for the last half of the track so the next season out I would try and remember that part and so on and so on until I was able to draw the track from memory. then each session out I would add to it or redraw it completely. The point is that if you try and wait until you "remember" it enough to draw it, you've lost the main point of the exercise and that is that simply DRAWING IT over and over again will help you learn it faster.

It doesn't take me long now to learn new tracks and I attribute it to being forced to draw new tracks (by Keith Code Himself) and also having to show up for a California Superbike School and coach local riders on tracks that I've never been to before, lol.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your input if you get a chance to try what I've suggested
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Old February 26th, 2018, 10:06 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
You're welcome But I want to say something about your comment on drawing the track. When you have no idea what the track looks like is the PERFECT time to try and draw it. That is the point. You have no idea what it looks like so coming in from practice and drawing WHATEVER you remember will help you learn the track quicker than waiting to draw it after you have learned it.....does that make sense?

When I went to a new track for racing (I had exactly one day to learn the track and then try and qualify for an AMA race the next day) I never studied track maps or watched videos before hand. I went out in practice behind someone who offered to give me a tow around and when I came in I drew (terribly) whatever I could remember. Even if I got it completely wrong or only drew the first 2 turns or whatever, I drew what I could remember and that made me really think and utilize my memory and focus. After the first attempt at drawing I would realize that I had nothing for the last half of the track so the next season out I would try and remember that part and so on and so on until I was able to draw the track from memory. then each session out I would add to it or redraw it completely. The point is that if you try and wait until you "remember" it enough to draw it, you've lost the main point of the exercise and that is that simply DRAWING IT over and over again will help you learn it faster.

It doesn't take me long now to learn new tracks and I attribute it to being forced to draw new tracks (by Keith Code Himself) and also having to show up for a California Superbike School and coach local riders on tracks that I've never been to before, lol.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your input if you get a chance to try what I've suggested
@Misti,
Sorry for the delay in responding, I was able to read your comments a long time ago (on my phone) but I have not had a chance to respond. This may be an advantage as I have had much time to think about what you wrote. Initially I was going to explain (again) how I had not ridden a bike, any bike, I over a year and that along with trying to learn a new track kept me from remembering anything I saw on the track. I really thought about what you said and I can see the advantage of drawing what little I did remember. I was running thru what I could remember between sessions on the track but had I taken the time to draw what I was remembering this would have cemented the data in my thick head. I will try this technique this season as I have not been to the Thompson track in a couple of years and plan to return as soon as the weather permits!

I have been doing lots of physical and mental training this off season and I really feel that this season will be the best so far. Really looking forward to this year on the track!

Thank you as always
Ant
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Old February 27th, 2018, 09:12 AM   #169
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@Ducati999 Ant, as you know I'm big into visualizing the course before, during and after the day. That idea of drawing the track is great.

I started doing a variation on this last season that might help you with the memory thing: I print out a track map and take notes on it between sessions, while things are fresh in my mind. Initially marking the location of cones, pavement markers, stuff like that.

The one I have of Palmer has the note "Don't do what Ant did" written next to Turn 7.

Since you're in the business world, you may have noticed something: More and more people are carrying journals and notebooks, and writing things down instead of typing. I've taken to doing this myself. I even devoted a page in my current journal to track thoughts that I jot down as they occur to me. I find that the act of writing and drawing makes you process information differently. It gets "stickier" and easier to recall. I heard recently that more and more students are starting to do this as well.

This might be useful to you.
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Old March 6th, 2018, 10:58 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
@Misti,
Sorry for the delay in responding, I was able to read your comments a long time ago (on my phone) but I have not had a chance to respond. This may be an advantage as I have had much time to think about what you wrote. Initially I was going to explain (again) how I had not ridden a bike, any bike, I over a year and that along with trying to learn a new track kept me from remembering anything I saw on the track. I really thought about what you said and I can see the advantage of drawing what little I did remember. I was running thru what I could remember between sessions on the track but had I taken the time to draw what I was remembering this would have cemented the data in my thick head. I will try this technique this season as I have not been to the Thompson track in a couple of years and plan to return as soon as the weather permits!

I have been doing lots of physical and mental training this off season and I really feel that this season will be the best so far. Really looking forward to this year on the track!

Thank you as always
Ant
Most excellent. Thanks for writing this and I'm glad that you were able to really put some thought into what you were experiencing and how it might help to draw the track right away. I'm not kidding when I say that I HATE doing this, but it freeking works! i was able to qualify for a few AMA events after only riding the track ONCE and I attribute it to drawing the track and taking the time to work on reference points were I lacked clarity.

I'm glad you are upping your training and I really look forward to hearing how your season goes and if you have any more questions, thoughts about riding skills in general.

I'm excited to get back at it as well. I'm off to Cali next week for 6 days in a row at Streets of Willow Springs, including the Race School. I haven't ridden in almost 6 months and I haven't ridden that track in nearly 8 years so it's time for me to step it up as well

All the best!!
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Old March 19th, 2018, 11:29 AM   #171
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As noted above by Misti and adouglas, drawing the track and making session notes are excellent tools for learning a track, or for extracting lessons from the track. An excellent way of leveraging these techniques is to grab a stopwatch and mentally ride the track. This technique is useful because it integrates visual elements with other senses (vestibular, kinesthetic, auditory, etc.) in the context of the rhythm or flow of the track.

If you try this, you may find that initially your mental lap times are way off, but even that can provide a great deal of information. For example, if your mental time is way ‘better’ (the lap goes quicker in your mind than in reality), that could indicate the mental rhythm you are riding to is out of sync with the track… perhaps because you’re experiencing an elevated sensation of speed (feeling rushed or overwhelmed by the pace).

Mental lap times that are far slower than reality can indicate that you’ve become lost or distracted during the lap, which can help you identify where you need to improve your mental model of the track (and perhaps do some more drawing).

Anyway, maybe give it a try, it’s free, it’s fun, and it’s resolution adjustable; you can go from just trying to learn and get around a track to determining (or programming) where the bike will rotate in a turn, where the rear tire will start drifting on exit, or any other multitude of technique adjustments you want to make.

One last point. This is a mental training technique, but it’s a whole-body mental training technique so MOVE . Even seated, you can make slight movements to simulate the loads you would be experiencing, or the control/body movements you would be making on the bike.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 11:17 AM   #172
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@Misti and @SpeedCraft,
Thank you both for the "tools" to help improve my lap times. I will be back out on the Palmer track for Memorial day weekend as my first track day of the year. I have done a little map drawing In the last few weeks and at least with my eyes closed I managed to draw what looks like the Palmer map and the start even lines up with the finish line I drew! Not easy to start drawing on a paper with eyes closed and have the line come back to your starting point but I can do it, not sure on how long it is taking me but I do seem to have fairly detailed video of the track stored in the vast emptiness of my head! I have a lap timer on my dash of my bike so I will see how long it takes to ride a lap then try to beat that lap with my eyes closed---HA!-- will see how close it is to my drawn lap.


Watch here for update
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Old May 29th, 2018, 10:35 AM   #173
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Report on Memorial day at Palmer Backwards

Captains LOG Star Date 2018-5-27.28 Palmer Mass

I had a great weekend at the Palmer Mass track the last 2 days. Since my crash in August of 2016 I have only had time to ride my bike or any bike approx. 2 hours total along with 2 track days at NYST. This is not any type of excuse (joke away if you must) just the facts leading into this past weekend. I felt that my pace prior to my crash at Palmer was in the high end of the Yellow group (intermediate). When I went to the NYST track days, my skills were really "rusty" to say the least and I not only had significant issues with learning the track but also in even getting comfortable with my bike.

Thanks to several of the people on this forum, @adouglas, AMisti, CSmith12, @DannoXYZ, @SpeedCraft, @jrshooter and @KikRox along with many others, I was able to find out why I was experiencing issues and correct them! I can not place a value on the help I have received as a member of this forum.

Back to this weekend,
Sunday was wet and cold. I have Dunlop Q3's on my bike and have no experience with these tires other than dry and hot conditions. These are the same tires I was using when I crashed in turn 7 of the Palmer track in the clockwise direction. This weekend we were going counter-clockwise and this was my first time running the track in this direction, so we have unfamiliar track and conditions. I spent most of the Sunday just doing 3 or 4 laps per session learning the new track layout and worrying about losing traction from my tires. I ran really slow laps and could not find any confidence in the bike at all since I had no experience with the tries in cold/wet conditions. I managed to figure out most of the lines well enough but still could not bring myself to keep pace with the faster guys in the yellow group. I did not have any serious "moments" but there was always a "pucker factor" every time I leaned into a turn--especially the back to back #4/5 turn a tight "S" turn with negative camber, which was now down hill, wet and cold. Again--NOT AN EXCUSE--Just the facts.

Monday started wet but soon after the riders meeting the rain stopped and the drying began. I skipped the first wet session and just sat in my truck studying a track map with my lines traced onto it and doing "mental" laps. Once I finally was able to get out onto a mostly dry/drying track, I was able to run at approx. 85% of my best pace (in the opposite direction) from before my crash. This was a major accomplishment for me and actually exceeded my goal's for this trip! Looking back onto the issues I had experienced at NYST I had not expected to do really well this weekend since I had still not been able to get in any seat time as practice. There is also another reason for me to consider this trip a success.

I had a couple of issues during the weekend which had me second guessing myself and adding to my lack of confidence. When I first started lapping a little faster on the first day, I noticed that the steering on my bike seemed to get really heavy and the bike did not want to turn anymore at some point. When exiting turn 7 (from opposite direction) there is an up hill with a turn just past the crest. I set for the turn early run up the hill and as I turned the momentum pulled me a little wider than I expected. I was drifting out towards the grass on the right ride of the track. I did not target fixate, I looked where I wanted to go and consciously pushed the left bar forward and pulled the right but the bike did not seem to come back as I would expect. I guessed that I must have just "fought" myself pushing on both bars and just not realizing it (counted it as an "SR"). Once the track fully dried out and heated up, I experienced similar issues when at near full lean trying to turn in more. I was unable to touch my knee down even when trying. The downhill scary turn 4/5 from Sunday was easily accomplished in third but as I tightened up the turn to hit the exit apex I still could not get the bike to turn more without lowering my body/dropping my head and shoulders further than normal. There were several other spots where I noticed this type of behavior but just marked it down as "SR'S" in my brain--Untill!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Once home, my wife came out to help me get the bike off of the truck and commented "why is your tire so flat?". I explained to her how I had slowly lowered the pressure down to 28PSI as my pace increased during the day. She said I did not understand and said the tire looked like a V not round like normal! I looked closely and the center tread was still nearly new depth yet from edge of the center to approx. 3/4" from the outer edge of the tire, the tread depth was less than 1/4"!! During the Palmer trip when I crashed, NYST and now Palmer reverse, I had worn down the tire to the point that when I was leaned over I could not go any further. This explains all my observed issues. #1 why the steering felt great then got heavy #2 why I could not further tighten turns, #3 why I could almost but not quite get my knee to touch!! New rubber should fix all these issues.

So I have now Babbled on for multiple paragraphs and should wrap it up. Studying the track map was the most critical thing I did all weekend. Knowing my lines allowed me to focus on finding the best reference points. Once I had all the reference points I needed to run full laps I was able to fine tune my riding from them and have a great day VS stumbling my way around the track trying to figure things out.

Please discuss, comment or even criticize for all to learn and benefit
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Old May 29th, 2018, 11:31 AM   #174
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I was with Ant this past weekend.

Ant, I'm glad to see you studying the track map and thinking ahead. It's a good habit to get into and it really can help.

Having ridden a fair bit with you I recognize that you prefer experiential learning, but that can get in the way... at NYST last year you spent almost all of your time just trying to figure the track out and getting lost. That kept you from focusing on your riding.

------

Speaking of "finding the edge," I well and truly lost the rear for the first time in my life this past weekend. Cold (low 50s), drying conditions (a dry line but visible dark pavement), a 10-minute red flag that allowed all the heat to go out of my tires and a steep, tight downhill turn. That lovely combo led to the rear spinning up the moment I touched the gas.

Didn't crash but it was a right proper tank-slapper. Being old, slow and having worn-out adrenal glands helped me... I didn't chop the throttle or go tight on the bars, and the bike sorted itself out after a couple of oscillations. Need to see what the on-board video looks like. Bet it's nowhere near as exciting as it felt.

Despite a very frustrating time Sunday due to not having suitable tires for the conditions, it was a terrific weekend. Palmer backwards is a blast and I've got the scratches in my pucks to prove it.
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Old May 29th, 2018, 11:57 AM   #175
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Need to see what the on-board video looks like. Bet it's nowhere near as exciting as it felt.
It never is....

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Despite a very frustrating time Sunday due to not having suitable tires for the conditions, it was a terrific weekend. Palmer backwards is a blast and I've got the scratches in my pucks to prove it.
Just change what your working on for the day. Its ok to take a step back and make sure you're calm, cool, collected and completely smooth in "not so perfect" conditions.

Remember what I said???? "Even if you have to think outside your internal box, never waist a single lap on my race track."
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Old May 29th, 2018, 01:19 PM   #176
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This was an extraordinary circumstance... forecast literally changing minute-by-minute. Rain, no rain, rain... Too damp for slicks, too dry for rains... all that. At one point I wound up pussy-footing my way around a drying track with rain tires and I swear I could hear the money flying off of the rear every time I turned the throttle...

Having experienced rain tires in the wet, I'm hooked. So the strategy going forward is to simply buy my next set of street tires in advance. They're going to get used sooner or later anyway... if it looks like another typical "can't decide" New England day, I'll just chuck 'em in the car and have the tire guy swap 'em. No waste that way, and at least I'd get to ride.

PS: I know your ability to get to new tracks is limited at the moment, but I gotta say that Palmer backwards is a blast. I like the flow better. Get there if/when you can.
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Old May 30th, 2018, 01:53 PM   #177
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Writing is not my strongest skill as demonstrated in this thread but I want anyone who reads this to understand. The progress I have made over the last 3 years is more than I would have hoped for when I began. I am not running race pace but I am nearly ready to move into the Blue (fastest) group. I still have a bit more to learn and practice before then but I am getting close enough to see what I need to do to get there. This past trip to the track showed me that if follow what is preached on this site then almost anyone can ride much safer and faster than expected.

I am riding a very powerful bike with no riders aids (TC, ABS...) yet I feel totally in control of the bike. Since my crash a few years ago I have not had much time on my bike and when I have had a chance to ride, things were not great. Through practicing proper body position and studying the track map and setting/modifying reference points, I continue to make progress!
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Old May 30th, 2018, 02:01 PM   #178
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I am riding a very powerful bike with no riders aids (TC, ABS...)
I feel that way about my 250 as well!
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Old May 30th, 2018, 03:08 PM   #179
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You're doing awesome! Thank you for report! Gives me some ideas on items to work on as well.
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Old June 1st, 2018, 10:43 AM   #180
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@adouglas wrote out a great report on the Palmer track backwards in the "Ninjettes at Speed" Thread under the North East Track Day Thread" Page 2 Post #61. His Post has a track map with corner numbers and a turn by turrn account.
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Old June 1st, 2018, 11:51 AM   #181
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Old June 4th, 2018, 01:36 PM   #182
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Captains LOG Star Date 2018-5-27.28 Palmer Mass

I had a great weekend at the Palmer Mass track the last 2 days.

Thanks to several of the people on this forum, @adouglas, AMisti, CSmith12, @DannoXYZ, @SpeedCraft, @jrshooter and @KikRox along with many others, I was able to find out why I was experiencing issues and correct them! I can not place a value on the help I have received as a member of this forum.

So I have now Babbled on for multiple paragraphs and should wrap it up. Studying the track map was the most critical thing I did all weekend. Knowing my lines allowed me to focus on finding the best reference points. Once I had all the reference points I needed to run full laps I was able to fine tune my riding from them and have a great day VS stumbling my way around the track trying to figure things out.

Please discuss, comment or even criticize for all to learn and benefit
So great to hear!!! Really glad to read your comments about riding good solid reference points and then fine tuning your riding from there. The starting point is always reference points and moving/adjusting them as you go along. Good reference points will allow you to run consistent and accurate laps and consistency and accuracy always help with better refined riding. I'm glad to hear this and thanks for posting up!!

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Old August 14th, 2018, 09:40 AM   #183
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Guess who's back-Back again---just me. I actually never left I have just been in the background.

I have been busy as usual and have not been able to ride since Memorial day at the Palmer track! I did make an attempt to get out on a nice bright, sunny day but I found the answer to a mystery which ended my riding that day. While at the track this past May, I could not get really comfortable on my bike and had little confidence in the tires. I attributed this to me not having much seat time the year before, the cold rainy weather and not having ridden on my current tires in the rain before. Even as the track dried out I was still not "feeling" it with the bike and no matter how hard I tried I could not get my knee down even-though I was riding/turning fast enough where this should have happened. I also noticed that my front brakes were extra sensitive and the slightest pressure would give a "stronger than I remembered" response. I had replaced the fork seals and oil and rebuilt/cleaned the front calipers along with new pads, so I again attributed this to not having ridden her in quite a while.

I must tell you all a little story so the next part of my story makes sense.
Last year the only track trip I took was 2 days at NYST. The story for that trip is in the above posts but there is an important detail which I did not mention. On the last day at NYST, Claudio, a friend to everyone and a really nice guy, crashed his 848 Ducati in turn 3. This was just before lunch and he was desperate to get it back on the track for the rest of the day. He managed to correct all the damage except that his brake lever was damaged. I was headed home since I had to work early the next day. I gave him my brake lever and he promised to mail it back to me after he got home. Once I received the lever back from Claudio, I reinstalled it onto my bike and did not ride again till this spring. I felt the front brakes dragging so I rebuilt the calipers and replaced the pads. Turns out that Claudio must have slightly adjusted the pin that puts pressure on the plunger for the master cyl! This caused the brakes to work normally until you really use them aggressively. When the cylinder is compressed under hard braking, some of the brake fluid takes a long time to return to the cyl and reservoir leaving residual pressure in the lines/caliper causing the brakes to drag. The harder you use the brakes the more drag there is on rotor until it can slowly bleed back past the partially blocked return hole! I am so lucky I did not wash out the front wheel on the cold wet track. There is no wonder why I did not have feel from the front and could not get my knee down. By the time I got back to the paddock all the pressure was able to bleed back past the restricted port and the bike was fine so I could not figure this out. All it took was just a half turn in (moves the pin further from the cylinder) and all was well again.

Since I found this issue I am now looking back on my last track day in a different light. I was able to run at a fairly good pace while hitting all my marks but with the brakes partially on the entire lap! I also feel much better about the "bad feeling" I got from the bike while trying to get comfortable riding on the Dunlop tires in the rain/cold for the first time. The symptoms of this issue include: Heavy steering, Bike does not want to lean in/ wants to stand up the tighter the turn becomes, quicker deceleration when off the gas/roll off, severly reduced feedback/feeling from the front tire and slower turn in/ response to steering input. I have resurfaced the pads and rotor and bleed out all the fluid (must have gotten very hot and possible boiling) and the bike feels so much better!

I am planning on going back to the Palmer track (forward direction this time) on Labor Day weekend and I cant wait to see how much better things go this time!
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Old August 14th, 2018, 09:41 AM   #184
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Guess who's back-Back again---just me. I actually never left I have just been in the background.

I have been busy as usual and have not been able to ride since Memorial day at the Palmer track! I did make an attempt to get out on a nice bright, sunny day but I found the answer to a mystery which ended my riding that day. While at the track this past May, I could not get really comfortable on my bike and had little confidence in the tires. I attributed this to me not having much seat time the year before, the cold rainy weather and not having ridden on my current tires in the rain before. Even as the track dried out I was still not "feeling" it with the bike and no matter how hard I tried I could not get my knee down even-though I was riding/turning fast enough where this should have happened. I also noticed that my front brakes were extra sensitive and the slightest pressure would give a "stronger than I remembered" response. I had replaced the fork seals and oil and rebuilt/cleaned the front calipers along with new pads, so I again attributed this to not having ridden her in quite a while.

I must tell you all a little story so the next part of my story makes sense.
Last year the only track trip I took was 2 days at NYST. The story for that trip is in the above posts but there is an important detail which I did not mention. On the last day at NYST, Claudio, a friend to everyone and a really nice guy, crashed his 848 Ducati in turn 3. This was just before lunch and he was desperate to get it back on the track for the rest of the day. He managed to correct all the damage except that his brake lever was damaged. I was headed home since I had to work early the next day. I gave him my brake lever and he promised to mail it back to me after he got home. Once I received the lever back from Claudio, I reinstalled it onto my bike and did not ride again till this spring. I felt the front brakes dragging so I rebuilt the calipers and replaced the pads. Turns out that Claudio must have slightly adjusted the pin that puts pressure on the plunger for the master cyl! This caused the brakes to work normally until you really use them aggressively. When the cylinder is compressed under hard braking, some of the brake fluid takes a long time to return to the cyl and reservoir leaving residual pressure in the lines/caliper causing the brakes to drag. The harder you use the brakes the more drag there is on rotor until it can slowly bleed back past the partially blocked return hole! I am so lucky I did not wash out the front wheel on the cold wet track. There is no wonder why I did not have feel from the front and could not get my knee down. By the time I got back to the paddock all the pressure was able to bleed back past the restricted port and the bike was fine so I could not figure this out. All it took was just a half turn in (moves the pin further from the cylinder) and all was well again.

Since I found this issue I am now looking back on my last track day in a different light. I was able to run at a fairly good pace while hitting all my marks but with the brakes partially on the entire lap! I also feel much better about the "bad feeling" I got from the bike while trying to get comfortable riding on the Dunlop tires in the rain/cold for the first time. The symptoms of this issue include: Heavy steering, Bike does not want to lean in/ wants to stand up the tighter the turn becomes, quicker deceleration when off the gas/roll off, severly reduced feedback/feeling from the front tire and slower turn in/ response to steering input. I have resurfaced the pads and rotor and bleed out all the fluid (must have gotten very hot and possible boiling) and the bike feels so much better!

I am planning on going back to the Palmer track (forward direction this time) on Labor Day weekend and I cant wait to see how much better things go this time!
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Old August 14th, 2018, 10:21 AM   #185
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Looking forward to it! I was going to hit the season-ender at Thompson too, but family matters are getting in the way. So Palmer Labor Day will be my last track days for the year.

Bruce is going to let me ride his S1000RR for a session if the weather's good...

(There's a story there; tell ya later.)
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Old September 24th, 2018, 05:52 AM   #186
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Labor Day Update

I just wanted to start this post by saying "Thank You" once again to everyone who has read thru this long thread and taken the time to give me advice on how they dealt with the issues I have faced. Special thanks to @adouglas, @Misty and @csmith12 for all the "direct coaching" I have received from them and special thanks to my wife for understanding all the time and money I have invested in this adventure.

I returned to the track on September 1&2 for Labor Day weekend. I was a little disappointed that we were running the Palmer track clockwise. I have the most experience running counter clockwise but after this weekend, I think the track flows better clockwise. My last track day was on Memorial day Weekend which was also clockwise but cold and wet. Not so this time, it was as good a day at the track as possible the first day with low 80's and a slight breeze. Monday the 2nd was hotter and no wind to help cool things down but I am not complaining! With only 4 track days in the last 2 years and no street riding, it took several sessions for me to relax and start really riding the bike without triggering multiple SR's. Mr. Fist suggested I reposition my rearsets which was the key to my success on this trip. I don't think I would have been able to get comfortable and start feeling things again if it was not for this change. I had real issues with my legs getting tired and I could not get off the bike properly until he suggested I move the pegs back and down 1 space each direction. With my feet more "under" me and my legs a little less bent, I was better able to support myself and able to hang off better without getting as tired.


Since I have had so little time on the bike over the last few years, my muscles used in riding are weak. Once the pegs were relocated, I was able to begin focus more on what I was doing wrong and on just hitting my marks. I did not manage to get my knee down this trip but I was running a good "mid yellow group" pace as I was not getting passed much and I was passing a few bike at times. Although I was not dragging my knee I felt I was going close to the same speeds I had done prior in the counter clockwise direction (where I was always dragging knee). I think that moving the pegs allowed me to be in a more correct body position which allowed me to use less lean angle with the same relative speed. I know my lap times were within a second or 2 of what I did in the other direction (onboard lap timer) and things felt great inspiring lots of confidence to go faster. There was one stark reminder of how much I can still improve: A young lady on a KTM RC390 blew past me entering turn 7 and disappeared so fast I could not believe, I began to hit that turn much harder after that!

I do not have any data nor video to show how things went but I feel I did well and continued to improve the second day-although I was so sore and tired from the first day that I skipped several sessions. This year was to be my "Best Year ever" on the track but life got in the way and I only got the 4 days on the track. I am rescheduling the "Best year ever" to 2019 and I hope to ride with many of you during the season.

Besides (I cant call it improvement but maybe a return to a skill level?) returning, my father and one of his friends came out to see the track. They wanted to watch me ride but they were also considering doing a track day next year. I really hope to get a chance to ride on the track with my dad, That would be a great memory for the rest of my life. I hope to have lots of updates to this thread next year along with the announcement that my 2nd bike is rebuilt and running again. Heres to 2019!
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Old September 24th, 2018, 07:16 AM   #187
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Bravo, Ant.

Really want to see you at the track more next year, and more importantly ON the track more next year!

Last day of the season is today and I'm at work....



But the weather's fine and I rode in....

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Old September 24th, 2018, 07:09 PM   #188
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Tell you what... you get your dad (and friends) to ride, and I will be there. Just give me at least 30 days notice to put together the trip. I will ride every session with ya'lls and the steak and shrimp is on me sir...

Good luck Ant, and....

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Old September 25th, 2018, 07:40 AM   #189
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Old September 25th, 2018, 03:38 PM   #190
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Old September 26th, 2018, 12:34 PM   #191
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Chris has my vote!
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Old October 25th, 2018, 03:55 PM   #192
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I have been thinking about my last trip to the track and will have a write up of some of the things that I have figured out. There have been a few things that I have not been quite doing right and I have figured some of them out. Since we have months of non riding ahead, I want to get my thoughts down.
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Old October 31st, 2018, 03:11 PM   #193
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What I learned

So here is the update I promised. I have looked back at the last few track trips and below are my thoughts on what I am doing wrong and possibly right. As always, please feel free to comment and advise me, I don't take criticism badly so be a frank and honest as you like and let me know what you think.

#1 Anyone who has survived reading this entire thread has heard me talking about rolling on in turns. I have realized that I need to work on this a lot. First off, I began rolling on much earlier this past season and I still need to start earlier. This also means my braking is wrong since I am slowing/decelerating way too far into the turn. I am not talking about trail braking or even slightly dragging the brakes to keep the forks compressed to help turning. This is an SR 100% and I believe it is actually more dangerous to load the front for so long and so much rather than begin rolling on and balance the load between the 2 wheels. I had a talented young lady on an RC 390 zip past me into a turn way faster than I ever had so next lap I started to roll on earlier. This made me have to brake earlier to set entry speed and be off the binders so I could slowly add throttle earlier. This made the bike turn much easier and slight changes in throttle kept me inline for the apex, not brakes and throttle variations. I did have a little scare past the apex as it is a blind uphill and with the faster exit speed, once over the top of the hill still turning left, the track got really skinny really fast. I had to adjust my line not to run off the track. This leads me to the second part of my 1st problem: When I was finally rolling on, I was not rolling on fast enough. I had a crash a few years ago due to applying too much throttle (way) too fast. This time I was just rolling on too slow. When I first open the throttle now, I am smooth, slow and cautious. Once I get the bike past the inertia moment, my continued roll on is too slow and I never reach full throttle. (more on full throttle later) There is also a small issue with finishing the corner with the power on but I believe this may be cured or at least get better with offset tripple clamps. This is a must have for track riding with most Ducati Super bikes. With the bike over but not at max lean, I need to add throttle about 10-15% faster than I have been. I also has a few SR's with backing off the throttle but I am working on that. Once the bike is upright or at least 80% vertical, I have not been increasing the rate of throttle application. Exiting the turn onto the straight I should be rolling it to the stops and clicking thru the gears but I find my throttle hand just continues the slow roll from before the apex. Not only do I not hit max throttle but I have been shifting at 8-9,000RPM. There is no need to bounce the motor of the rev limiter but I need to get it moving faster sooner.

Over the last couple of track trips, I have realized a few of the problems I have been experiencing are all caused by my throttle application. I seem to be OK on the brakes and leaning and lines are good but getting the throttle sorted out looks like the next big step.


This next season I am planning on being in much better shape so I don't get tired out as soon. I am also planning on spending more time on the race track practicing what I have learned and I want to do more street riding just to keep the muscle memory sharp.
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Old November 1st, 2018, 09:03 AM   #194
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There are a few things in there that seem to be at odds with one another. Taken as a whole, though, it sounds like you're having trouble working towards an overall flow. This was the big advance I made this year. As you know I'm chronically timid with the throttle, but I started looking at it a bit differently and started thinking about what I'm trying to accomplish.

At the start of your post you're describing charging the turns, rather than carrying speed (that's why Cassie -- or it might have been Lea -- on that RC390 blew past you... that and the fact that both are darned good riders).

Remember the back-straight braking exercise from Mid-O? Remember the no-brake drill? I've been thinking a lot about both recently. Getting your speed set right by choosing your brake marker correctly in the first place sets you up for success throughout the remainder of the turn. Too often I find myself over-slowing, killing my momentum and trying to make up for it. It all gets back to the confidence thing... having the confidence that you can get down to the apex at the speed you've set.

When you charge the turn you start triggering SRs and that throws everything off.

You wrote a fair bit about throttle and how fast/how much you're rolling on. Rhetorical questions for consideration:

Why is that a priority for you? Is that the actual goal?

Isn't it really about arriving at tip-in at a speed where you have the confidence to make the corner perfect? Isn't it really about carrying momentum rather than killing it and pushing to get it back over and over?

Do you go faster by railing it as fast as you can down the straights and fighting to make it through the corners, or by making the whole lap flow even if you're not WFO anywhere?

You've got a very fast, very powerful bike with a metric f-ton of torque. That makes you feel fast because when you twist the happy stick it launches you like nobody's business. But that very same thing can hurt you at the other end of the straight when you need to carry speed through the corner but haven't figured out how to do that yet.

Remember what we've been saying for a long time: "Sneak up on fast?" That's what this is about. Smooth, good lines, getting the flow right... that's where speed comes from, I think.
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Old November 9th, 2018, 08:05 AM   #195
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Andrew AKA: @adouglas,
Thank you for the reply, as you ride with me the most I value your insight more than most others. You have seen me ride and know what I look like out there. Now as Samuel Jackson said "Please allow me to retort!"

I agree with you 100% on the flow and being smooth as the fastest was around the track. Before I crashed I was getting fairly (for me) smooth and I was really starting to "feel the flow" of the track. The bike and I were working together to get from apex to turn in point back to apex and all was well. Then I had my crash- both on the track and in life. Neither were all that bad but the Life thing left me with nearly 0 time over the last 2 seasons. Since August 2016 I have spent all of 3.96 days on my bike. That number includes all three track trips and the 3 or 4 rides I managed to sneak in when possible. Look at that number it represents less than 25 hours per year riding! I am actually surprised I did as well as I did this last trip since the last time I rode was back in May! I know you are not criticizing my riding I am just trying to make a point that I have not had any practice in the last 3 years now. Looking at my tires and the fact that I still maintain a solid mid yellow group pace shows I am still doing somethings right but could use lots of improvement. Again I don't take your reply post as an attack and lease don't hesitate to give me your insight and guidance I am just setting the level of expectation for the next paragraph.

Ok now onto your specific points. The reason I took so long to reply to your post was so I could really think about what you stated. I will do my best to address everything I can.

#1 You said I was describing "charging turns": I don't feel like I charge turns at all at this point. Before I crashed, when I was riding all the time, I was and it was part of the issue that lead to my crash. My post above is describing just the opposite (at least that was my intention) as I am not using enough throttle, never getting to "full throttle", keeping the brakes on too long and rolling on late and too softly. Basically I have been a pig pu55y with the power! I am not afraid of the bike nor afraid to crash, I just don't have the confidence or conditioning (mental and physical) to run at quick pace. Lack of riding time means I need a few laps to get smooth shifting again and my mind/muscle memory back online. This is why I vowed to do so much more riding next season.

#2Your rhetorical question: "Why is how fast or slow I roll on important to me?" I don't accelerate out of the turns enough which puts me at my chosen brake marker too slow so I brake less hard and have to adjust my turn in point to compensate for the slower speed. Then I don't roll on as soon nor as hard as I should.....rinse repeat. I think you realize what I am saying. Maybe because I am at Palmer and have brake and turn markers from when my pace was better that I am experiencing this, if I was at a new to me track, I might not feel the same. With the proper roll on and exit acceleration, I should carry more speed to the next brake marker and the pace would be faster and smoother. Maybe I am not looking at this from the proper perspective but this is what I see from on the bike.

#3Your question : "is it faster to rail the turns or flow at a speed where you are confident". My issue is that I am below the speed I am confident. I am not worried about not making the turns. I did have the moment above where I rolled harder and did not adjust my lines (I said the track got narrow) but most laps I know I could/should be going faster. Rolling on earlier is more the issue than harder but more acceleration is needed everywhere on the track except pre apex.

#4 I don't feel the need to go WFO throttle and that's not my point but I should be getting there at times around the track. I am not trying to get there and going too fast causing my problem it the opposite where I am never getting to full throttle even down the long straight. Once I pass the cone on the wall coming down the hill the bike is upright enough that I should be rolling to WFO by the time I get to the 100 ft marker heading onto the straight.

The final thing I will add is that: You said "Remember to sneak up on fast" well I feel I am going too slow and fast is going to lap me soon!

Please read this and respond as I do respect and value your opinion.
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Old August 1st, 2019, 10:33 AM   #196
Ducati999
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Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

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Hello from beyond,
Sorry I have not been able to be active on here much lately. Life and work have conspired to keep me away but I have managed to continue to improve my riding and I have learned so much over the last year. I am still no where near the end of my journey but I have found a few things that have helped me on my way.

I managed to get out for 2 track days on Memorial day weekend. Before this trip I had been able to ride a bit on the street which I was unable to do over the previous 2 years past. I have real trouble going straight to the track after 6-7 months of no motorcycle riding. Trying to readjust my brain to the acceleration, deceleration and turning capabilities of a high performance bike after half a year of only cars in traffic made it difficult for me to get comfortable at speed on the track. Rains and cold on a few of these track days added further to my inability to get "back in the grove" and start to make progress. I also had some physical issues that were holding me back a bit and altogether these issues has me nearly dreading getting on the track some sessions. I am not trying to offer excuses writing this I am saying that I no longer have these things holding me back!

I have rebuilt my 748 Ducati as a 916 and have worked hard to set this bike up like the 999 I use for the track. I have been riding the 916 at every chance and I have high confidence in my ability and the bike. I have also been working on several related things in the car as often as possible. I will take a certain corner in my car everyday where I brake while downshifting to 2nd up to my turn in point. I release the brakes just before the turn is initiated then I aim for my reference point while slowly rolling on the gas pedal. When I do everything right, I don't have to enter any steering inputs, just hold the wheel steady, and I hit the "apex" at the end of the turn perfectly. Additional steering inputs have been an issue for me at the track and I think this has helped me figure out what I was doing wrong and to correct the problem. I also learned that I do need to slow more before the turn to make precision thru the turn possible. Another of my issues on the track was my perception that I was slowing too much then trying to make the speed up during the turn and exiting extra hard on the gas. I feel I have a better understanding of this and expect improvement at the track.


This is all I have time for right now but I hope someone who reads this will chime in with more advice or criticism so we can all discuss and learn. I also hope to have time to write a bit more about what I have learned and how I have applied it before I return to the track, then I will have even more to discuss once I get back on the track!
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Old August 6th, 2019, 07:45 AM   #197
Ducati999
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Hello again, back so soon?

We just returned from another incredible learning experience at Palmer Motor Sports Park on Sunday Aug 4 and Monday Aug 5, 2019. I have to thank @adouglas, @Kaola, my wife, TTD and many others for an incredible 2 days doing what I love! We had a small incident which @adouglas can explain better than I, but otherwise a great trip. Below I will relate how my trip went but I would like to give a little insite to what I observed with my fellow paddoc mates.

@adouglas: The best description may be "Iceman" from the movie Top Gun. He learns all the rules and procedures, practices them and rides with precision. I have watched as his speed and precision on the track has steadily improved to the point that TTD nearly had to force him into the faster Blue group. He has helped me much over the years and is well respected at the track by many of the riders. This trip was his lap times dropped down to 2:08! which is hauling A$$!

My Wife: She is not a member on this forum but is the reason I am a member since the 250 is her bike. She had an operation approx 2 years ago and has not ridden much since. When we all planned this trip, she decided to go along and began to ride her Ninjette once again. I replaced the tires with Pirelli Sport Demons and got her a set of grips with a throttle cam allowing her to hit full throttle with much less turn of the grip. She has always done exceptionally well at the track and loves Palmer so it was no suprise she did quite well again. She is looking forward to next season with hopes of a new, bigger CC bike and hopefully many more trips to the track! I would not be able to spend as much time or money on this sport if it were not for her!

@Koala: This weekend was her first real track trip. She has just under 500 miles of riding experience total in her life including this trip and did exceptionally well. Her first day she was taking things slow but after learning the race line, a little advice from @adouglas and lots of courage, she steadily improved. You should read about it in her own words elsewhere on this forum. She did great--enough said!

@csmith12: You all know him well. He had planned to attend with us but was not able to make the 14 hour drive to attend. We missed him being there but his help and guideance over the years have helped me and many others ride faster and safer than we ever would have without him.

@everyone else who has helped: @Misty, @Sireff and many others have read this thread and given me advice. I really appreciate all your time and Knowledge and ask that you dont change a thing. Please let me know what you think of my video and I want all the criticism as my only goal is to improve. Thank you all.

@Ducati999: Finally, I must address myself. I am super happy with the issue I resolved this weekend. When you read thru the above thread, you will see that I have had a real problem describing the issues I was experiencing yet a single slow rider cutting me off at turn entrance showed me the "root cause" of most of my trouble. I will do the best I can to describe what was wrong and what fixed the problem but the video I will attempt to attach should show that lots of the issue is resolved. I have lowered my lap time around Palmer to 2:17/18 but the video will show my lines are much better and smoother and that my entry speeds and corner speeds are within 1-3 mph each lap. WWWWWaaaaayyyy better than ever before and my throttle control is so much smoother. Enough now to the issue and what I leanrned.

I do not have video of this event but will do my best to describe what went down at turn 7 (same turn I crashed in years ago--go rewatch).
Turn 7 is a down hill left turn. You crest a hill with a kink right at turn 6 then downhill into a huge sweeping left hand carousel where you cant see the apex until way late in the turn. Normal "good" entry finds you on the power over the crest/kink of 6 straight lining into 7 fairly fast. I had begun taking a much tighter line to the inside as before I would run out approx 15' from the curb. Comming down the hill just as I began to tip into the tighter line, a slower rider went from the outside right into the curb causing me to roll off, brake and have to tighten my line more to the curb on the inside of the turn. I was pushed froward on the seat due to the sudden deceleration and this changed how I was "locked on" to the bike. I did not think I had an issue with how I "locked" my knee into the tank before this but with the new position I was able to control the bike much better and finished the turn much better than the last few laps. The next turn is an uphill kink left taken under power so I did not notice anything there but once I set into the U turn that is turn 9, I was back to having the same issue with difficulty getting the bike to turn how I wanted. I went thru turns 10-13 and the front straight working out how and why turn 7 went so well but then the issue came right back. Twist of the Wrist 2 says "bikes dont do anything once in a while" so it had to be me not the bike. Turn 1 is a uphill sweeping 90 degree turn taken at "high speed" with knee (nearly) on the ground. As I approached turn 1, I realized that I was not locked into the outside foot peg as well as I had been at turn 7 and that was forcing me to use the bars for some additional support. Once I had this thought and started to support my core better, everything changed. I will let the video (provided I get it to load) speak for its self. Please let me know what you think, I am not afraid of negative feed back.

I did not get a chance to edit the video so you will have to FF to approx 10min for start.

I am trying to load to YOUTUBE as every attempt to upload here-FAILS. I will add linky ASAP!



https://youtu.be/eyCbFbw4m1Y" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old August 6th, 2019, 01:49 PM   #198
Ducati999
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Video above should finally be live, took all day to upload
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Old August 6th, 2019, 02:11 PM   #199
Koala
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it's doing the same thing mine did this morning when I tried to post it, just gives an error when you click on it. That's why I just put the link in my thread. Your link isn't working either, though.
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Unregistered now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

"To ensure you're giving your very best, blind yourself of all negativity, relax your mind, put inhibition to rest and drive hard toward your goals like it's the last thing on earth." - csmith12
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Old August 6th, 2019, 02:19 PM   #200
Ducati999
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Name: Ant
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Posts: A lot.
Sorry for the dead video, The link is correct but you can search Youtube for "Palmer 8 5 Final" or try this linky copied directly from their page
https://youtu.be/eyCbFbw4m1Y
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