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Old May 6th, 2023, 07:54 AM   #81
Bob KellyIII
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And what you said made me think of it creating a vacuum in that jar... and sure enough gas flowed really good into the carbs when I turned on the gas valve then.
..... thank you !
.... Yah after thinking about how it was running there at the last it did have the sound of running out of fuel ! LOL that and not wanting to start again sealed the deal.... no fuel it ain't gunna run !
soon as I saw the gas going into the carbs like that I KNEW that was the problem.....
now I gott'a get that little monster all back together so I can test it....
but we have Rain today.... and I don't like playing in the wet and cold so it's gunn'a wait !
....
HAY that is a great name for that Ninja "Little Monster" now she has a name ! instead of Ninja ! HA!

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Old May 6th, 2023, 05:30 PM   #82
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well... Damm..... today the little Monster doesn't want to run worth a sh#@ !
it started easy.... ran for a few seconds on full choke and she started gaining RPM as usual , I turned off the choke and it idled fine....
I let it warm up for a minute or so and then gave it the throttle it took throttle fine
but then around 6K RPM it sounded like a cylinder was dropping out and it had a flat spot in it... I burried the throttle to see if I could get over it and it balked and coughed a few times then reved to 9k with no problem....
I let it idle for a few seconds and the same thing around 5k easing the throttle a bit more and the flat spot got worse... giving more throttle and it did get over it ...
I think Riding it is going to show a big flat spot around 5&6 grand....
yeasterday it was fine ...today it's Not ! WTF ??? I did not change a single thing !
...
I'll put on the gas tank and leave the fairings off and give it a good 5 mile ride to see what the thing does.... get some concrete evidence of WHAT it is doing....
and then go from there...
makes me wonder about the sparkplugs again because it feels like a sparkplug breaking down under acceleration.... those are new iridium sparkplugs in there and they SHOULD be good... but my experience with sparkplugs is not stellar by far in the past I had a very hard time getting good spark plugs.... and I really don't think the manufacturers changed a darn thing through the years ! they just pump out more.
but I do have about 6 sparkplugs now so if I can find the cylinder that is iffy I could replace that plug one of the 6 should be good !
but that is only valid if it is sparkplug.... doubtful
....
it feels lean in mid range so what can I do to ritchen up mid range ? raise the needle
or increase main jet size....
....
it also feels sluggish on acceleration not snappy like it should be.
but it does not hesitate off idle like it used to do... it's just not crisp !
....
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Old May 8th, 2023, 01:33 AM   #83
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thinking about the situation i have come up with a few conclusions... 1. I am too old for this ****! 2.the problem I had before is still there but lessoned a great deal 3.the bike hates me !
....
You guys mentioned fine tuning might be necessary... Um.... like what ? I'm not a Race tuner and I don't have physic ability when it comes to Kawasaki motorcycles...
there is no road map that discribes how this bike is running and what steps to take to correct them.... My mechanical intuitions fall short when the bike does not act the same way twice.... one day it works great the next it has a flat spot about 5~6k.
....
so going by what I know the flat spot is probably always there just odd random things
make it fail to show on occasion.... if that is the case then the flat spot is the problem
We've made progress in the fact that the flat spot is much smaller almost gone...but not quite..... so I'm guessing that what I need to do is more of the same....
all that was done was change of the main jets to 95 and 2 shims were added under the needles.... and the high float level on one was fixed....
other than that as far as I am aware there was nothing else wrong with the carbs
and they were checked by the best person with carbs I know... Gordon....
....
the only way I know of checking what it is doing at the flat spot is to run it at that speed
for some time and then check the plug color if the plug color is white it is running lean
if it's dark it's running rich.... ...now mind you that is not at WOT (wide open throttle)
but right at the area where the throttle valve cutaways and jet needles do the most to control the mixture....
...
any suggestions ?
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Old May 9th, 2023, 04:40 AM   #84
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"any suggestions ?"

time for fully adjustable jet "kit" needles?
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Old May 9th, 2023, 04:53 AM   #85
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so would you go for another shim at this point ?
what would you do in this case ?
I'm out'a ideas here !
....
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Old May 9th, 2023, 05:18 AM   #86
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after all....you asked for suggestions
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Old May 9th, 2023, 01:38 PM   #87
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Ok I appreciate that approach... but my question is has anyone ever had to use 3 shims under the needles ? I've never heard of that.
...
I would think NO because 2 is alot.... has anyone ever used 3 shims ?
I don't know if they would even fit.... I've never shimmed needles before.
even with re boring and polishing and porting.... I've never had to shim needles before.
.....
I'm thinking maybe sense it is better, just not right yet that something else is causing this problem, what that COULD be escapes me ! if it were a point's system there would be a few things I could try, but the timing is fixed on this thing so it can't be ignition.... the ignition USUALLY works or it doesn't...
but it could be possible that a coil is breaking down at that RPM and causing the flat spot.... just like a sparkplug might do.... but that is Highly unlikely
....
I just thought of a test I could do to see if it is the coils breaking down
sense I have it running on a aux gas tank so the tank isn't in the way.... start the bike up and turn off the lights in the shop and see if I can see any arcing
going on anywhere.... although I have seen coils go bad without any outward signs like arcing.... but usually they fail to work entirely
... come to think of it I did have to take off the coil on the right side.....
...
I am more apt to remove the shims completely and see how it runs then
....that should tell me something if it runs worse then the mid range is probably way too lean because the shims should richen up that area. as well as top end obviously....
but it runs fantastically above 7k or 8k RPM .... and it did before too
it was the bottom end that it barely ran at all at.
.....
I find this whole thing bazar carbs are not that difficult and usually there is no real reason to modify them but that is totally dependent on the machine
some need modified straight off the showroom floor the Yamaha 175 was one
I can remember.... ride it hard and you will fry the piston. they put in too small of a main jet.... Kawasaki 175's were the same way in fact I had a skoal can full of all the main jets I removed to replace with bigger ones...
the DT1 250 Yamaha was one you really had to watch close, they would melt a piston faster than you could blink if their air cleaner came loose or some one changed the filter for a green weeny...
but I do not know about the Ninja 250 at all.... I have no experience with it other than what I have seen here.... it is a bitch to work on that I know from experience. it USUALLY starts easy and runs fine.... why adjusting the valves and having the carbs cleaned changed that makes no sense....
.....
if plug color is any indication of how it was running it was running too rich
so we put smaller main jets in it.... that should NOT change anything else
it should not put a flat spot in mid range.... so what else changed ?
.....it could be that smaller main jets make it run too lean in mid range
(if so the carbs are ****** carbs!) but that is possible... so 2 shims are needed to correct that.... so the bike should be running perfectly right now
.... but it is not.
I don't know.... I have no answers !
....
Bob.....
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Old May 9th, 2023, 03:15 PM   #88
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I think I may have found it Gordon !
the air screws ! I turned the airscrews out 1 turn or there abouts on the right side and the flat spot went away..... I turned the airscrew out 3/4 turn on the left and tried it and
no more flat spot at all.... no complaining at 4~5k RPM at all.....
I guess these carbs don't like 3500+ASL altitude !
.....
not only did it rev up smoothly but it did it several times !
I guess we'll see how it does when it cools down and I start it again.... because this bike has not been consistent lately ! LOL
....
but I think it WORKS !!!
...
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Old May 9th, 2023, 05:53 PM   #89
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Old June 3rd, 2023, 11:09 PM   #90
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Well, no I didn't get it......
I took it out for a short run and got a full tank of fresh gas...
at low RPM's it's trying to drop a cylinder and it wants to cough, fart and fizzle around the 4k~5k area (1/4 throttle) when I get over that to 6k and above it runs great all the way to 12,000 RPM.... in fact I don't think it has ever ran that good at the High RPMS !
as it is it is barely rideable you have to baby it alot to let out the clutch !
once your going and above the 6k threshold it runs real good.... so it's the slow speed mix in the carbs that is giving me trouble, the high speed is fine.
.....
I am thinking it needs bigger pilot jets.... sense I could not get the air screws to change the RPM at a low idle at all.... ( last year when I adjusted them it worked fine!) but this time there was no change in the RPM at all.... and that is confusing as heck !
.....
I guess I will pull the carbs off again and pop the bowls off and pull the pilot jets out and see what is in there and order some bigger ones.
Gordon.... where do you buy your Jets at ? I want to get good quality ones and not a pack of chinese cheepies ! ...
...
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Old June 4th, 2023, 05:52 AM   #91
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"I guess I will pull the carbs off again and pop the bowls off and pull the pilot jets out and see what is in there and order some bigger ones."

no need, you've got 38 (stock).....simply get 40 from www.jetsrus.com

get the right pilot, however........

https://www.jetsrus.com/a_jets_by_ca...low_35-xxx.htm

note the LEFT HAND COLUMN is for genuine keihin. Use it.
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Old June 4th, 2023, 11:16 AM   #92
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thank you SIR !!!! that made it much easier with the links !!!!!
I ordered #2 number 40 genuine Keihin jets not the cheaper ones....
JetsRus said I should get them in 7 days !
.....
thanks Gordon ! that was a big help !
as I could not find my way around on that site !......AT ALL !
LOL
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Old June 4th, 2023, 11:28 AM   #93
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Strange..... it must be my altitude that makes the difference.
but I still don't understand why all the stock settings quit working after a good cleaning...
that is just wrong....makes no sense to me.... in my mind it should work as stock. but it quit working, I guess they must have been really dirty inside for a very long time !
.....but still it should run perfectly with stock stuff, I am not high enough altitude to cause adverse running..... at least I don't think I am.....
.... I guess I will chock up the problem to Altitude !
....
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Old June 4th, 2023, 10:05 PM   #94
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I sware Pay pal is a Royal P.I.T.A. and sites that ONLY use Pay Pal need to learn that !
I tried to order smaller Pilot jets BUT pay pal said I had to confirm my account with them first.... I'll be Dammed if I will... I don't need them to be a middle man between me and my purchase co. so my last order will be the last one they get ! I hate Pay Pal.... and will not buy stuff through them.
their a leach company and shouldn't even exist !
.....
I did get around Pay Pal but it was hard.....(and not obvious)
so I got more pilot jets coming so I have 2 richer and 2 leaner coming
....

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Old June 5th, 2023, 11:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
...
but I still don't understand why all the stock settings quit working after a good cleaning...
That's because you had dirty clogged carbs that was limiting amount of petrol being delivered. Now that they are truly factory-fresh clean, they are sending more fuel than before. Too rich gives you boggy stumbling behavior.
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Old June 5th, 2023, 11:29 PM   #96
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ok I get that, but how did it run when it was new if it can't run that way Now with the same stock jets ?
....
I'm no rocket scientest but there are a few rules you can count on in mechanics... put it back to stock and it will run right.... that doesn't work here ! WHY ? I have no answers
for that..... it's like an exception to the rule !
....
Sure we can always get it to run again with enough tinkering and figuring out where the Fuel air ratio is going wrong.... but it's the idea that STOCK SETTINGS NO LONGER WORK that get me ! that is unprecedented ! what caused that to happen ?
something changed to cause that ! when you clean the carbs you make it better not screw it up.....Yet the end results is a screw up that shouldn't be ! you can't dirty up the carbs to make it right again.... that would be silly, we need to find out what changed
so others don't run into the same problem and so I can return the bike back to stock settings.
..... this has got to be the strangest Mechanical screwup I have ever seen !totally weird !
....(it's not supposed to work that way ! )
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Old June 6th, 2023, 08:16 AM   #97
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1. 1st stock, config and cleanliness
2. then account for your altitude.

issue is you got order reversed. You upsized jets first to compensate for dirty clogged carbs. Then when they were finally cleaned, that ended up being too rich for your altitude. Back to 38 pilots and remove 1 or 2 shims
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Old June 6th, 2023, 10:15 AM   #98
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I did that Danno when I got the carbs back from Gordon.... straight stock ....it had a flat spot from 4,000 RPM to 6,000 RPM that I could hardly ever get over.... it was a major flat spot you would raise the RPM with the throttle and when it hit 4,000 it gasped for air and died.... that was STOCK, so Gordon rechecked the carbs and sent them back and I had him change the main jets to 95's and install 2 shims under the needles.....
...so going back to stock is not going to FIX it..... I already did that !
.......
let me clarify here.... I haven't put in those Bigger pilot jets yet... they haven't came yet.... I had Gordon put in 2 shims under the needle and install 95 main jets
.... because the bike always ran very dark plugs not black but just real dark
so I will pull the carbs again and pull out one shim and see if I can find any dirt in the carbs ( which I doubt Gordon did an excellent job of cleaning those things!) and I am running a inline filter so there should be no dirt or stuff in the carbs... but the pilot circuit is giving me some trouble with not wanting to adjust, that is why I ordered the extra pilot jets which haven't got here.
( came to about $50.00 too! for 4 pilot jets !)
......
Stock, not wanting to adjust via the air screws denotes a clogged passage way
correct ? we know that's not the case because Gordon cleaned them and I didn't so I didn't screw it up ! LOL so.... sense the stock pilot jets are still in it
I can take out one shim and see if the flat spot I had (and was trying to get rid of) gets worse or better.... I expect it will get worse.
.....
However adjusting the air screws needs to be done after it is warm.... that means after I take it for a ride.... and the engine is at operating temp.
I actually should do that first to see if the engine will raise and lower in RPM with the air screws like it should.... I could Not get it to adjust properly last week. (even after a lengthy warm up)
but I have fresh gas in it and it should work great but there is a hint of a flat spot around 4,000 ~ 6,000 RPM after 6,000 RPM it runs fantastically.
....
it could just be the air screw adjustments because I know they aren't right!
....but that shouldn't effect it at that high an RPM 2,000 to a max of 3,000 RPM should be tops of where the air screw adjustment effects the run.
....
my observation is that the flat spot at 4k~5.5k is lean if I hold the RPM's there it will drop a cylinder in short order.
....
Bob.......
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Old June 6th, 2023, 11:14 AM   #99
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You have yet to use bone-stock factory-fresh clean carbs yet.

Go back to 98-mains with no shims.

Do that 1st and then go from there.
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Old June 6th, 2023, 12:08 PM   #100
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I may be wrong, Danno, but my recollection is that when Bob got the carbs back from Gordon the first time, all jetting was stock.
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Old June 6th, 2023, 12:53 PM   #101
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I may be wrong, Danno, but my recollection is that when Bob got the carbs back from Gordon the first time, all jetting was stock.
correctimundus TJ
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Old June 6th, 2023, 01:34 PM   #102
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You have yet to use bone-stock factory-fresh clean carbs yet.

Go back to 98-mains with no shims.

Do that 1st and then go from there.
no Danno I did that first ! 98 mains 38 pilots no shims and it had a flat spot I couldn't get over without begging it ! it was totally unrideable that way.... so I asked you guys what the deal is ? I tried stock settings and it no longer works ! it did before the carb cleaning now it doesn't ! and I am totally at a loss here....
....

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Old June 6th, 2023, 01:53 PM   #103
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Exactly Jim ! it was stock and All you guys said well you may have to tweek it if that is the case..... I am reluctant to do that but if I want it to run I gott'a do something...
so I am tweeking it LOL...
....
I am thinking it is something stupid I am doing ! seriously... all joking aside ! because stock it should run like it did from the factory floor..... because 5,000 miles on the clock is not enough to ware out the carbs or valves or any other component i don't think....
heck even chain and sprockets have been known to last 10,000 miles !
but all of a sudden this happens .... I am wondering about the boots on the choke mechinisum if they were replaced and they were actually bad out of the box and leaked
could that cause the problem ? or maybe the seals on the throttle shafts/butter-flys if it's got any of those....which I am certain it does... if they leaked could they do it ?
....
I bet they could as it would be a big vacuum leak and it would be like running with a vacuum hose off !
....
it wouldn't be the first time parts looked great when putting them in and in use they fail
something has caused this.... the question is what.... and I shouldn't have to Tweek it to get it to run right.... it should run perfect with stock stuff in it, but it doesn't
.....
to test the seals spreying carb cleaner on the butterfly shafts should cause it to rev up
so that is an easy thing to check same thing with the choke boots... if it's sucking air anywhere from the outside that should be real easy to check !
.....
the bike starts super easy now by the way hardly makes a full revolution and it's running..... so I know that the air screws arn't too far off ! LOL
.....
it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense !
....
Bob.......
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Old June 6th, 2023, 02:10 PM   #104
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OK I got curious and went out and fired up the Ninja...it started easy but didn't rev up immediately like it usually does....it sounded like it was running on one cylinder.... it ran for a few seconds ...say 45 seconds and I gave it throttle and got off Idle and the other cylinder kicked in...and reved up to 3k with the choke on.... I let it run and went in and got the carb cleaner sprey and came back out and revved it a few times and it's running like doo-doo sounds like a spark plug is trying to die on me.... in and out half the time...
I sprayed the left side carb and no change at all... i went around and sprayed the right side and it immediately picked up the other cylinder....
and seemed to run much better.....
I think I found the problem.... butterfly shaft seal !
....
Bob...........
....
and yes I think it is the right hand side that keeps trying to die on me (cylinder wise)
the idle was like 100 RPM when I turned off the choke.... because the right cylinder quit firing.... I spreyed carb cleaner on that side of the carb and that cylinder picked up and ran on both cylinders......
it ain't supposed to do that !!!!!!
so I at least know where to look !
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Old June 6th, 2023, 02:38 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I may be wrong, Danno, but my recollection is that when Bob got the carbs back from Gordon the first time, all jetting was stock.
Ah true, and he sent them back. Did Gordon find anything wrong? Or did he just downsize jets and install shims?

It's still running rich as indicated by worse behavior when air gets hotted up. Leave mains as-is and remove one shim. Then other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
and yes I think it is the right hand side that keeps trying to die on me (cylinder wise)
the idle was like 100 RPM when I turned off the choke.... because the right cylinder quit firing.... I spreyed carb cleaner on that side of the carb and that cylinder picked up and ran on both cylinders......
it ain't supposed to do that !!!!!!
so I at least know where to look !
Bob, you have history of not putting bike back exactly way you found it: breaking fairing tabs, etc. Be extremely careful with disassembling and re-installs. Make sure carbs are fully-inserted into rubber-manifolds on both sides before tightening clamps. Make sure lip of rubber manifolds don't get folded/rolled over. Same with airbox boots. Take close-up videos before and after and play them on large-screen TV to compare.
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Old June 6th, 2023, 03:26 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
OK I got curious and went out and fired up the Ninja...it started easy but didn't rev up immediately like it usually does....it sounded like it was running on one cylinder.... it ran for a few seconds ...say 45 seconds and I gave it throttle and got off Idle and the other cylinder kicked in...and reved up to 3k with the choke on.... I let it run and went in and got the carb cleaner sprey and came back out and revved it a few times and it's running like doo-doo sounds like a spark plug is trying to die on me.... in and out half the time...
I sprayed the left side carb and no change at all... i went around and sprayed the right side and it immediately picked up the other cylinder....
and seemed to run much better.....
I think I found the problem.... butterfly shaft seal !
....
Bob...........
....
and yes I think it is the right hand side that keeps trying to die on me (cylinder wise)
the idle was like 100 RPM when I turned off the choke.... because the right cylinder quit firing.... I spreyed carb cleaner on that side of the carb and that cylinder picked up and ran on both cylinders......
it ain't supposed to do that !!!!!!
so I at least know where to look !
Be very careful here, you are entering NO-GO territory......NO factory breakdown exists for "butterfly shaft seals" ......therefore NO parts are available. Note the screws on the actual throttle butterfly must be removed to remove each shaft. As they are factory installed, I'd be highly doubtful of leakage on (as you've noted) such a low mileage bike. Frankly....a mistake waiting to happen.
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Old June 6th, 2023, 04:33 PM   #107
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Hummm....
Ok Noted ! Yes your right I do have a tendancy to brake things ! especially
plastic garbage ! and the bike is covered with that !
but I am careful with the boots ! I don't hap hazardly force them on... I learned a long time ago that was not a good idea with a ripped carb boot ! and I had to wait a month to replace it ! ( and no black tape did not fix it, nor did silicone!)
.....
I have been thinking about what I found.... it could have been just the plug picking up just as I sprayed the carb cleaner..... but I don't think so I did it 2 or 3 times and each time a slight increase (only slight) in RPM was noted....
I pulled the bike into the shop because we have a thunderstorm trying to rain on us.... if Gordon replaced the butterfly seals then I would say the seals were defective at this point.... and I'm pirty sure he would have.....but then again there may not be seals on those things, I don't know ! LOL but there may be something else on that side that is wrong.... i won't know till i get them carbs off there again.
.....
I am not used to having to be so precise ! close enough is usually good enough ! .... I certainly had to be very precise when it came to doing the valves and I re checked the timing 3 times because I know me !so I am positive the timing is correct and the valve lash is within tolerance !
.....that only leaves the carbs as being the culprit. nothing else on the bike has been changed !
I will double check the boots ( with my glasses on) to make sure there is no cracks but a crack in the boot on that side would definitely cause this whole thing !
....
Bob........
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Old June 6th, 2023, 05:04 PM   #108
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"if Gordon replaced the butterfly seals then I would say the seals were defective at this point.... and I'm pirty sure he would have.....but then again there may not be seals on those things, I don't know !"

Provided you read my previous response, you'd be clear. NO I didn't replace the butterfly seals, nor did i disturb butterflies in any way. KNOWING parts are NOT available...why would I?
Frankly, I never disturb the throttle shafts, other than a long ago experimental disassembly....see old photos attached. Yes, there are seals...however NA as in Not Available. I took photos in 2014....9 years ago, never played with them since. The clearance between the shaft and carb sealing surfaces are minimal at best, the seals do the rest. Again, I'm highly doubting your conjecture here.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg shaftseals.jpg (119.2 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg shaftseals2.jpg (114.3 KB, 4 views)
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Old June 6th, 2023, 06:09 PM   #109
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LOL oh your response was there...I thought that was Danno again ...sorry !
Ok now I understand.
is there any other holes on that side of the carb that could suck air ?
maybe a vacuum line that is supposed to be on there or something that I missed ?
.....with all the crap on the bike just seeing the carbs is a feat of futility....I am sure the carbs are hooked up right, but I have to second guess everything because it is not running perfect right now.
...
Bob.........
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Old June 7th, 2023, 05:54 AM   #110
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At wide-open throttle, is there any bogging anywhere in the RPM range? If so, a vacuum leak is not the likely cause, since there is nearly no vacuum at WOT.
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Old June 7th, 2023, 07:56 AM   #111
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I have no idea Jim I cannot test that..... the best I can tell is that there is a bogg at about half throttle at 4k~6k
.... about the only way I could test WOT is put it in 5th gear at about 30mph and then burry the throttle and let it slowly climb the RPM's the way it's running right now I doubt it could do that test it would be running on one cylinder for a mile till it finally picked up 2 cylinders around 6k RPM and then it would haul ass....anything lower than 6k RPM is sick ....it does idle and it does get to 3 k ok.... but there is a area around 4k and 6k RPM where it has trouble at.
the more I ride it the worse it gets I think it is screwing up the new plugs.
....
Bob......
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Old June 7th, 2023, 05:37 PM   #112
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Do you have more pictures? I’m trying to get my carburetor back together
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Old June 7th, 2023, 08:56 PM   #113
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what pictures do you need Mike ?

....
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Old June 22nd, 2023, 08:25 PM   #114
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I think I kinda figured it out. My engine was getting flooded with gasoline. I rerouted the lines from the carburetor in my best to original form. I was wanting pictures of the right order of how they went back together. Like from the top, left, right sides etc, etc but the way I have it right now seems to be working in harmony with the engine. Thanks for your reply 👍🏻
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