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Old December 17th, 2022, 08:52 PM   #41
Bob KellyIII
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LOL I got to thinking I could just grind down the out side of the round shim to fit in the bucket..... and if I didn't have another set already coming I would do that.. but what's the point eh ?
sense the bucket on top of the valve does nothing but keep the shim in place, the shim's out side dimensions are not critical, so the shim could be an octagon and it would not matter ! nor would the engine care.... ( ya gott'a keep it happy ya know)
.... of course I would endeavor to make them as round as possible and fit good.... but in this case I will just wait for the new ones .... if they turn out to be 9.49 in diameter I WILL grind them down to fit !!! lol.....
I have heard of guys sanding down the thickness of shims to keep them in tolerance...
but they should have a polished surface.... they are after all just a spacer... the only thing critical about them is their thickness..... well, and their diameter ! they do not rub on the cam, the cam follower does that ... so I could make the ones I have fit. but that is alot of work for nothing when I have new ones coming ! LOL
I'll wait !
.....
Bob.......
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Old December 19th, 2022, 05:45 PM   #42
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Ok today I got my Carbs back from Gordon ! and a nifty pen too !
they look fantastic... I'll let ya all know how they run when I get the bike all back together !..... but that is probably going to be a while as we have snow on the ground here and I do not like to work in the cold any more my bones rebel heavily when I do that so it can wait till warmer tempitures
....
Twas a long drive down to Red bluff today but made the round trip with no misshaps or close calls and had a great dinner to boot...so I can't complain !
I'll sleep good tonight I am sure ! HAHAHAH
.....
later !
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Old December 24th, 2022, 12:42 PM   #43
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Old December 24th, 2022, 03:06 PM   #44
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LOL Yah ! that I don't doubt one bit !
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Old December 24th, 2022, 03:44 PM   #45
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Old December 24th, 2022, 04:52 PM   #46
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I hope everyone Here has a Merry Christmas ! and if your not of the Christian type religion
I still wish you a merry Time what ever you celebrate... or even if you don't celebrate at this time of year.... we have a great deal to be thankful for this year, we are still alive,still in good health, and have food on the table and a roof over our head... so if you see someone that is down on their luck lend a helping hand,.... we've all had bad days and even bad months... but some times others have problems that you never dreamed of or could endure !.... so have a heart and help out on a regular basis and a way of life.... not because you must, but because you want to !
this life is tough.... try making it less painful for someone else eh ?
....
Merry Christmas All....
Bob...........
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Old January 1st, 2023, 02:34 PM   #47
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Well I got a new set of valve shims as the other ones were marked 7.42mm (I think that is the dimentions) but everything in the box from Hot Cams was 9.25mm in diameter and wouldn't fit unless I ground them down ... that was very dissapointing indeed... so I had to order another set which I got a few days ago.... figured out the shim size needed for each exhaust valve and put them in (each one done seperately, obviously) and I'm in the proccess of torqing down the cam bearing caps so I can double check the valve clearance
.... but it's a cold damp 40 degrees out there in the shop and I didn't stay out there long enough to get them torqued down but the caps are on and cam's timed .... Now I wish I had taken a picture of the cam timing marks but I didn't
and if putting in the cam chain tensionier pulls the cams out of time I will have to pull the thing all apart all over again..... it shouldn't but I have seen that happen before ! I guess we'll see !
.... so I am making progress but it's very slow
I hope to have it running by the end of january one way or another !
I'll see if I can post a pic of Mt.Shasta peeking through the clouds today
...
Bob.......
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Old January 2nd, 2023, 10:27 AM   #48
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I am real glad to see a heavy coat of snow on Mt.Shasta this year... WE definately need the water here it was so dry last summer that even the lakes and ponds dried up
i think the only one that didn't go completely dry was lake shastina ! almost All the big ponds were completely dry.... first time I've ever seen that !
so many Ranchers were fighting getting water to their cattle
One nice big pond that we always see ducks and Canadian honkers in dried up to our dismay.... but it's now got some water in it again.... which I am glad to see. it's not full yet but at least there is water for the critters !
....
the Shasta River that feeds Lake Shastina was down to just a small trickle but it has picked up by quite a bit now.... it's fed by snow melt off Mt. Shasta and near by mountains.... so I am hoping there will be enough to fill Lake Shastina this spring.
.....
the forest fires we had were monsters as well... we were supposed to evacuate but we never did... it came within 2 blocks of us so we probably should have. but once you go out you cannot come back...they won't let you... so your stuck, that is why we never left. the fire was totally devistating here called the Mill fire it took out a bunch of homes just down the road from us and then headed to the ranches on Hoy road.... and 3 or 4 ranch home went up as well.... most survived though as those ranchers kept the trees and brush back from their places.... one lost the house but it left his shop and well pump house as if to say "I can do what I want" ....
Luckily all the cattle up here survived, and none perished as they went to the wet ends of the fields and waited it out !
.... it's been a rough year for many around here All because it was so Dry....
hopefully we'll get more rain from here on out and things will get better again.
....

this year I would like to take an Adventure Ride around Mt.Shasta on the back roads
... I don't know if I will or not but that should be something to see !
.....
Bob.....
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Old January 2nd, 2023, 08:45 PM   #49
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I dig, Bob. Good to see this rain for sure. We needed it down here in the desert too and we're getting it. My cactus and palm trees are just storing water like camels now!
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Old January 2nd, 2023, 09:09 PM   #50
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HAHAH ! Yah they do that for sure !
....it seems we have a storm bearing down on us right now... and we are supposed to get 1"~2" of that nasty cold White stuff on us.... we even got a trace this afternoon....
So I probably won't get much work done on the Ninja any time soon ...it's too cold... the wind picked back up and snow started like a full blown blizzard but it only lasted about 15 minutes... and then the sun came out for about an hour then it got real dark ! ... that kind'a makes me worry when it does that ! LOL
but so far it's just another night.... the wind died back down and all is quiet....
it feels like the calm before the storm ! a few years back we had a real bonified blizzard, that lasted about 2 days and I had a 6' snow drift in the back yard !
.... if that happens again no problem, I got caned food to last 2 months at least ! HAHAHAHAH
....
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Old January 10th, 2023, 03:02 PM   #51
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well, I got a new shim-kit of the correct size again... from AHL this time... it took 2 weeks to arrive but it did get here...and they are the right diameter !
I measured each valve lash and wrote it down then took the cam's off and now I could get the original shim's out and measure them for each valve...
doing one valve at a time so I would not screw up and get things mixed up I did the addition and then subtraction of the value I wanted and it gave me the shim size I was to replace the stock shim with.... I did all that and then started re assembling it...
got the timing correct as close as I can figure, put the cam bearing caps on and then torqued them down with my handy dandy new slit stop torque wrench from Harbor freight tools... it was in Nm and inch pounds so I used inch pounds and torqued everything down above the valves....
then came the test to see if I did the valves correctly or not sense #2 was still at TDC I checked it and it was at .009 ex and 4~6 intake... rolled it over and checked cylinder #1
and got virtually the same reading so I am happy with that....
the only thing I am worried about is the valve timing as neither cam lines up like the book says.... but it does look like when I took it apart so I think it's good to go !
...the lesson here is to get #2 cylinder at TDC and take a good 3 or 4 pictures of the cam positions simply because they do not line up like the book says they should one is a bit down and the other is a bit up.... their not straight across and flush with the surface of the head ....THEY DO NOT DO THAT ! ....so lesson learned.

....
now it's just reassembly.... or should be...we'll see how long that takes me to get done.... I have a feeling it won't be quick as I hate working on that ninja as everything is so crammed in there you cannot get to anything ! ....anyway....
it's getting closer !!!!
....
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Old January 10th, 2023, 04:39 PM   #52
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For a quick check of cam timing, you can turn the engine until you get to "overlap", when the exhaust valve is closing while the intake valve is opening. When the intake and exhaust valves are open the same small amount, you should be very close to TDC.
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Old January 10th, 2023, 06:47 PM   #53
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Ahh that's good to know.... isn't that called full scavenging ? regardless...that is good to know ! .... turns out after I put the cam tensionier in place and took the key I made out of it and it extended and tightened the cam chain both the cams turned about 1/8 turn I thought OH NO ! and figured the valve timing was way off at that point... but I turned it through by hand and got it to #2T and looked at the cam marks they were dead on where they should be !
so I was real happy to see that.... got ready to start putting the valve cover back on and what do you think I found ? a guide pin... off one of the bearing caps so I started taking each one off and checking.... sure enough on the last bearing cap to come off I found it ! I put it back where it was supposed to go and put the bolts back in and dropped the friggin socket ! and of course it went tink tink clank clunk all the way down the cam-chain tunnel !.... so I got my handy dandy magnet and couldn't get the angle to get down there with the end bearing cap on... so it had to come off again.... and then I could fish out the socket.... and put that bearing cap back on for the 3rd time ! ....
it's now all torqued down and ready to have the valve cover put back on it
.... so I didn't make much progress this time out in the shop as it was fixing my mistakes mostly ! .... but I am confident it is right the timing is spot on with the cams and I triple checked that.
.... 3rd time is the charm for this bike, I dunno what is up with that but it sure seems to be like that ! maybe because I am also the 3rd I dunno ! HAHAHAHA
.....
so Now it's the valve cover , frame piece and then radiator and all the hoses and stuff....then the freshly rebuilt carbs and then we'll see if it runs again!
....
I have a question.... how is a person supposed to remove the sparkplugs from this bike with the gas tank on it ? are you supposed to remove the tank to do that ? ....
back in the 1970's spark plugs were sooo poor that 1 in 4 were bad from the factory.... I admit sense I've gotten back into bikes around 2000 that I haven't had near as many sparkplugs go bad on me riding around... in fact none that I can recall..... but with the past record of sparkplugs I am thinking that is probably going to hit us again in the near future and having to remove the tank to pull sparkplugs would be a major P.I.T.A. !
.... triumph spark plugs are super easy to get to...as is the RX4 and TT250
but the Ninja not so much..... is there a special wrench you can get to take out the plugs without removing the tank?
.....
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Old January 11th, 2023, 01:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
back in the 1970's spark plugs were sooo poor that 1 in 4 were bad from the factory...
That must have been only in California, since I've never had a new spark plug give me any trouble, and I've gotten hundreds. I guess we got the good ones in the DC area.
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Old January 11th, 2023, 04:24 PM   #55
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that's interesting.... it's like when in doubt send them to california those people won't notice ! LOL......
I did several tests on spark plugs in the day actually.... durring one period it was hard to find sparkplugs that actually WORKED ! no kidding !....
where they would fail is that they would arc sideways from the inner porcelain to the threads and not from the electrode tip like they should.... and for years I tested each one before I put it in on a bike.... if it didn't arc from the tip of the electrode it was a bad one.... I did find several in that era that looked good at first but within 20 miles would stop firing My 305 Honda had a thing about sparkplugs they had to work good
or it simply would not run right..... many times I remember replacing the plugs and going to town and returning on 1 cylinder pull the plug to check it and it would arc below the tip down in the porcelain.... and my old 305 would not run on those plugs !
replace the plug and it ran great..... now days that is not an issue at all.... but it used to be..... several times I got way up on backbone road going around Shasta lake near Redding ca. and the spark plug would crap out ..so I usually carried 6 spark plugs on the bike several used plugs that were known good ones and 3 new ones still in the box
.... that was all part of riding in the early 1970's ..... hearing a triumph go by on 1 cylinder was uncommon but it did happen.....
back then the bikes ran richer than they do today and that broke down the plugs faster I think.... and the gas actually had lead in it which did screw up spark plugs.
.... I remember using straight gasoline in a 2 burner Colman camp stove that called for white gas only.... it worked but sooted up the pots with a yellow flame about 20 years later and with the same stove I put unleaded gas in the stove and although it was dirtier than white gas it wasn't by much... the flames were blue and only had a hint of yellow at their tips.... that is how much gasoline has changed through the years.
the change is gasoline alone would account for the plugs not being as fussy as they used to be...... but I still carry at least ONE spare plug with me when I ride.
....
when I did the spark plug testing I had just purchased 24 spark plugs I used many in my motorcycle business in my back yard at the time so I thought nothing of it
I tested them all Using my Honda 305 which had a really good spark at that time
and I came up with the 1 in 4 ratio I took those spark plugs back to where I bought them and they were nasty about it but did give me replacements..... but they also tested out 1 in 4 being bad.... If I remember they were Champions so I switched to NGK and got the same ratio as well.... the smaller the sparkplug diameter the worse the ratio became.... the ones on my 305 were very small indeed the ones my DT1 took were hardly ever bad.....
I remember being very pissed off by getting 6 spark plugs.... NGK's for the 305
and finding out only 1 worked consistantly but I did get another to funtion good enough by closing up the gap to go get more spark plugs... that really pissed me off !
the next 6 plugs were ALL good..... it's like they dumped thousands of sparkplugs on the market that they knew didn't work but did it anyway to get them out of the invintory
those plugs were NGK and I have been using NGK's over champion's every sense
.....
...
.. Bob.....
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Old February 13th, 2023, 01:15 AM   #56
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Well, back to getting the 2012 250R Ninja running again....
over the last 4~5 days I put the bike back together....
(very carefully I might add) and finally got to the point of putting the carburators back in ( the ones I sent to Gordon..) I took them out of their bac and looked them over and I've never seen them look so good before !
so I started to stuff them in their hole and they would not fit at all.... I set the carbs on the shop rag and started looking to see if I can move the air box back MORE because I had to move it back to get the carbs out..... and I noticed that the air box was all the way forward again... i don't know HOW it got there
but it was.... so I managed to move it back as far as it would go AGAIN and what'da'ya' know the carbs went in there 1st try ! ....well after I took off the left cylinder carb boot for the intake.... then after they were in there and posisioned correctly, I put that boot back in (in the proper orentation) clamps and all.... so the carbs were on.... it was cold so I didn't work on it much more that night... and over the next 2 days I had everything all hooked up and air box back where it should be. and the throttle cables on and routed correctly as I had to move them 2 times to make sure they were not binding in any way.... so the throttle and choke levers work much better than they ever did before.... I put 50/50 radiator coolant in the bike and checked for leaks... and didn't find a single one. I then put on the gas tank and Hooked up the vacuum lines on the front and the gas line and vacuum line to the petcock and plugged in the fuel gauge. and then I could try starting it.
.... I turned the petcock selector to PRI and gas filled the fuel line filter and gas came running out from under the bike.... I turned it to on and then took a wrench and tapped the bowl of the carb on the left side that was stuck and it finally stopped leaking..... it set in that bag for a long time on my bench
so I guess that float valve decided to stick.... but it did stop leaking with a few good whacks ! so that's good...
I hooked up the battery turned on the choke and key and hit the starter button and it turned over about 12 times then tried to start ... at first it was barely able to idle so I added a little to the idle adjust knob and then it set there idling at about 400 RPM.... so I let it idle a bit.... no leaks anywhere
but the valves were clicking noticably .... but as it warmed up that went away
as it warmed up the RPM slowly gained which is usual.... I gave it some throttle and it reved right up to about 4000 rpm.... I held it there and did not notice anything amiss.... it was running on both cylinders nicely...
i let it drop to idle and recover and then gave it a handfull of throttle and it
jumped up in RPMs but at the top RPM's it sounded funny....
so I did that again and this time it went up to 8000 RPM and then fell to 4000RPM and held that... when I was holding it at the 8000 throttle position
I thought eeek that's not right at all.... !
so over the course of 2 days I have replayed that sinario dozens of times
and each time it will not take throttle to 9000RPM and hold it ...it drops doen to 4000~6000 RPM and it sounds bad when I try to take it to higher RPMS
like it is running very lean.... misfires and pops and in general running like sh*t..........
after talking to Gordon I thought he replaced the jets in the carbs with stock jets but he told me it had stock jets in it already... so he didn't change a thing.... and all this time I thought he changed them to smaller jets so I figured the jets were TOO small.... but that's not the case as their the same ones that were in it.... so that means "USER instillation".... or ..dare I say it ...valve timing !
.....
so what I know about motorcycles or engines in general I've came to this conclusion.... it's either got one heck of a big AIR leak or the valve timing is off..... ( probably only a tooth) because it runs and runs fairly good below 4000 rpm valves will do that..... I've seen that before on a VW engine
it would not take throttle at all.... ....there were 2 punch marks on the crank
I happened to guess and used the wrong one... luckly no valves were bent !
.....(Old 36hp VW)
so sense I spent all day playing with the Ninja trying to find a vacuum leak
I am thinking that it's not the vacuum at all... but the valve timing even though I double/tripple checked it before I put the valve cover back on it.....
perhaps it moved one tooth .......
the only way I'll know is to pull it apart again.....
.... and that is the LAST thing I want to do on the Ninja....but I have no choice as it won't run this way.
.....
AURGH !
....
Bob......
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Old February 14th, 2023, 12:28 PM   #57
Bob KellyIII
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Well going to all the work of pulling the valve cover off again got me nothing...
I put 4 photos on another thread and I guess I will put them here as well
as it is more pertinent to the subject at hand.
...
.... anyway the timing looks perfect..... nothing wrong with it at all....so that means it Has to be an air leak or dirty carbs.
.....
is there anyway to test the emission control BS on this bike ? or do you have to just replace it when in doubt ? the main vacuum line that connects to the N0#1 carb that branches to the petcock goes to a T and branches to a vacuum actuated can of some sort on the left by the big square carbon canister....
I suppose it could be stuck wide open.... causing the problem i don't know.
..... that's the problem with this bike ...I DON'T KNOW ! emission control crap is nothing I've ever messed with except to pull it off and block the lines ! it's all useless crap to me.... you'll not save the environment by sticking that junk on a otherwise good engine ! .... it didn't help the Signs in L.A.
in fact it made it worse ! they started pealing after the change.
....anyway that's another story....
there is 2 vacuum operated valves on this bike one just above the breather pipe on top of the valve cover and the other by the carbon canister.... either could be bad and causing the problem.....I think. if their stuck open drawing air all the time the petcock should not work.... but lets say there's enough vacuum for the petcock to work anyway.... as vacuum builds it would be alowed then to just suck air and run lean but that should only be on the left cylinder sense that is where the vacuum port is.... but I cannot tell if it's only running lean on that cylinder at all....it runs and kind'a acts like it drops a cylinder but it's hard to tell as it works when the RPM's get to 5~6 grand again.........
I suppose a quick test to see if it's vacuum related problem is to get fuel in the carbs and then take off the vacuum hose and plug it. if it revs up fine then then I've isolated the problem to vacuum
....
I guess that is next after I put it back to running condition.
I'm not going to touch the timing as there is nothing wrong with it.(as far as I can tell.)
here's the pics.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ninja cams 01.jpg (67.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg ninja cams 02 .jpg (66.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg ninja cams 03.jpg (77.1 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg ninja cams 04.jpg (65.6 KB, 3 views)
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Old February 15th, 2023, 03:46 AM   #58
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Sense I cannot see the Right side of the intake cam except through a very small hole in the cables and frame it's real hard to photograph it.
but it's orientation looks to be just slightly lower than the top of the head by about 1/16" max.... if it were a tooth off it would be as much as a 1/4" off
on 2 marks the inside mark and on the outside mark. both marks would be off and not line up.... so I am fairly confident that the timing is right on the button
....
So that only leaves the carbs in this fiasco.... and sense it's 22 degrees out side I am not going out there right now to work on it.
..... I'll put it back together and then Pull the carbs off and put them on the bench and pull the float bowls and see what I can see.
....
I did fix the pictures to be upright.... and as you can see the timing looks to be dead on.... as the crank is at 2T with it on it's compression stroke.

.....
Bob.
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Old February 15th, 2023, 05:47 AM   #59
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Remember the easy way to double check valve timing... overlap should be very near TDC.
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Old February 15th, 2023, 07:48 AM   #60
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Thanks Jim.... I'll give that a peek next time I go out there... but it dropped to 20 degrees here tonight and it's bitter cold in the shop too cold for even a 5 minute look.... I'll wait till this afternoon.... if I'm awake ! LOL
....
I actually wish I could find the timing off as it would explain it....
but..... i'm not that lucky.
.....
I thought I had sold my RX4 to a guy in Redding... but he decided to buy a KLR instead.... I do hope he is a tall person as those things have a 34" seat height ! that's one of the main reasons I bought the RX4 as it has a 31.5" seat height stock....nothing worse than a bike I can't touch the ground on !
.....
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Old February 16th, 2023, 08:10 AM   #61
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Well, I just came back in from a 20 degree shop.... Burrrrr !
I did get the valve cover back on and the spark plugs in and the right frame member back on but that is as far as I got....
I think I will stop there as far as re assembly goes and now pull the carbs and see if the main jets are plugged or not.... if they are that should tell me that the fuel system is pirty filthy inspite of the in line filter....
.....
Man I'm still cold... time for a cup of coffee ! LOL
.........
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Old February 16th, 2023, 09:14 AM   #62
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SERIOUSLY?

pic attached...YOUR carbs upon reassembly after split/refurb
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Old February 16th, 2023, 10:06 AM   #63
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Yah Gordon because I want the bike to run again.... I know you worked on them and you did a fantastic job.... but that does not mean the jets arn't plugged after the fact.... and the symptions point in that direction...
so that is where I will look....
if that fails to revile anything I will start replacing emission control crap !
....there's no sense in having a bike that doesn't run ! even if I have 4 of them....
I can't find the problem as to why it would flat top to 5K RPM.... so I have to keep looking no matter how rediculas it seems.
.... Believe me I do not want to tear into the carbs..... but as I see it I have no choice....

....
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Old February 17th, 2023, 05:43 PM   #64
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Well Poooo !
as I suspected ....I pulled the bowls off the carbs and checked both the main jets/emulsifier tubes and the pilot jets.... and although the left carb had what looked like soot on the main jet face where the numbers are usually stamped...
there was nothing wrong with them at all....
I thought maybe that one was plugged but when I held it up to the light I could see light coming through the droplet of gas in it.... I then blew it out and it was completely clean....
so I'll put the carbs back in and start doing some trouble shooting with the vacuum system on it... that's all it can be at this point.
...the timing is spot on, carbs not plugged, and it should run.... but so far I have not found the offending party !

I know if I put it all back together the way it is it will still do the same thing
and flat topping at 5 grand ain't Right !!!!
.... maybe my Kids right and it is electrical ???? unlikely but possable !
....

so now it's put the carbs back on and hook up everything and add coolant
as I did get the radiator back on....
...
I did pop apart the thermostat and pull the thermostat itself and look it over
... There is no small hole in that thermostat just a really small slit
and the gasket was covering it . so this thing had absolutely no bypass of any kind.... so I drilled 6- 1/8" holes on the outside ring to give it at least a little bypass.... we'll see if that helps as far as warmup time....
those holes were about 1/2 covered after the gasket was put on it....
so the bypass that I created is a small one.
.....
so that's were I stand now.... again I made no progress as I found nothing wrong with the carbs they looked like Gordons picture above ! LOL
so I didn't contaminate them some how !

....
next is emission control BS.... Damm California anyway !
.....
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Old February 17th, 2023, 06:29 PM   #65
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"next is emission control BS.... Damm California anyway!"

I'd suggest to eliminate it. I did same on my SS800, easy, more room to work, less complications overall.
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Old February 18th, 2023, 09:32 AM   #66
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I am very tempted but I do live in California and these idiots might line me up against a wall and shoot me if I remove it ! this Stupid WOKE mentality started here most of these people live in a dream world that has no connection to reality.... back in the 1980's I used to remove all the Smog crap on my cars till I read that some poor slob did the same and got caught and was fines several thousand dollars... spend 6 months in jail and was cursed at for destroying the environment. EVEN THOUGH we know now that all the smog
crap on the cars does nothing to help the environment, in fact it makes it worse
it is true the car will emit less carbon dioxide, but it also makes 2 times as much deadly acid that has been found to attack traffic signs in L.A.
......
sense they do not have smog check stations here in this county it's a fair chance i would be fine removing it... but they have been pushing for more stringent smog checks for cars... and also adding motorcycles to that list
...
there is no doubt that if you live in California your only hope is to move away ! there is no intelligence in their law making ....they passed a bill that forbids the sell of any internal combustion engine here.... I have no fear that will be removed just because it is so utterly stupid.... and unconstitutional... but Newsom and his pack of deranged people actually passed it into law... to come into effect in a few years.... with out any infrastructure for electric cars....
so I may well be using my car and bike for decades to come.
....
I am sure there is a big down side to removing the smog crap on my Ninja
other than the state's B.S. and that would be Resale....
how much would removing the smog crap from my Ninja lower it's value
is a wild guess but it's fair to say at least a grand.
I paid $4000 for it , which was very high and I knew that. but it was pristine and only had 5k miles on it....

....
but I said all that to say this ...I just might remove it all anyway and suffer the consequences regardless. because I want the bike to run correctly
....so I am working my way to get it running right again... I do know it would not be so hard if all the Smog stuff was gone !!!
......


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Old February 18th, 2023, 09:54 AM   #67
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Agreed, ya' never know. So an easy alternative removal...don't throw anything away...save every single piece just in case you require to reinstall some day in the future....whether selling or to meet EPA requirements.
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Old February 18th, 2023, 02:17 PM   #68
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Yah I hear that ! back in the 1980's when I always removed that junk from our cars I did exactly that... and what's more important is to not damage anything
like those steel lines that go to the smog pump...
.... I had to cut them off as they were frozen on there... and if I had to put it all back on again I would have had to replace the smog pump.... I didn't have to put it back on and we drove that little Ford pinto thousands of miles
but in that time they started doing smog checks and sense the car was totally used up by then we simply parked it on the Ranch... and got another beater !
then my wife's folks surprised us with a brand new Toyota tercile ! and it still ran at 410,000 miles but the rods were making noise... I priced re building it and it cost more for the parts than the car was worth.... that one I never touched the smog stuff on... having to go get a smog check every year was the deciding factor for me... it's just too much hassel
....
Now days we moved out of Shasta county and this county does not require smog checks .... it's like UH ?!?!?! but that is a fact.
.....I had no idea it was a COUNTY thing.... I always knew the city fathers of Shasta county were more crooked than a dogs hind leg but they were obviously paid under the table to push it through as no one wanted it....
one of the DMV employees were telling me about that years later. I checked that with a sheriff friend of mine and he said Oh yes definitely they are the worst of the worst... but be patient they will get theirs..... as far as I know they never did.

So yes definitely if you do remove the smog crap on your bike put it all in a box and save it because you may need it some day and that stuff is expensive.
....
I'm just about ready to put the carbs back in the bike and we will see if anything changed.... it shouldn't have as I found nothing wrong!
but we shall see....
....
Bob......
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Old February 18th, 2023, 05:52 PM   #69
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Ok I just came in from the shop and the Ninja.....
got it running again had to choke the hell out of it but it finally took off....
I ran it for about 30~45 seconds checking for gas leaks ( I don't have coolant in it yet)
.... it warmed up a bit and started gaining RPMS like normal
choke still on and I gave it some throttle ...it went up to 9 grand straight away....
throttled back and it sounded funny around 7k& 6k coming back down... I let it idle a sec then took off the choke and it didn't want to take throttle yet without the choke on
sense it's still fairly cold, turned on the choke again and reved it up slowly and it went past 5k easily 6k and 7k it sounded funny 8k and 9k sounded good again !
THAT is SPARK PLUG !!!! it sounded funny because it was dropping a cylinder !
I did that 3 more times to confirm it and sure enough it sounds like spark plugs to me now ! ......
Could I be so lucky ? ..... I bet I am ! remember I said the spark plugs looked dark ?
when I put them back in ? that could be why ....
if you remember last time it would not go above 5~6 grand even holding the throttle WOT
this time it hesitated and I gave it more throttle and it slowly climbed to 9K and ran good ...it didn't do that last time. PLUGS !
I think it's time to buy some new plugs !
this time running it felt entirely differently but it more or less had the same problem
but I guess my hard of hearing didn't make the connection of it dropping a cylinder
.... those pistons move so fast in there it's hard for me to hear a dropped cylinder on the ninja... on the Triumph there's no problem I can hear it easily but the ninja not so much !
.....
I did not have the vacuum petcock hooked up, I just turned it to PRI ... I plugged every line to the gas tank vacuum attachments and the line for the petcock
....
I think I found the problem...... spark plugs ! of all the Stupid.......... ahem !
well, at least I have a direction to go in now
.... new plugs and it should run like a champ !
....
....I do have to remember to put coolant in it though !
...

( I should have new plugs in the shop already I think!)
...
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Old February 19th, 2023, 07:55 AM   #70
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suggest when servicing plugs, add to check/confirm tightness of the brass lug (inside of the cap) also to check wire tightness and condition at both cap and coil ends
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Old April 16th, 2023, 04:02 PM   #71
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the spark plugs came about 2 weeks ago and I just set them on the bike in the shop.... I'm tired of working on that stupid Ninja ! so today I finally got around to putting in both new iridium spark plugs (NGK's) and put the caps back on
.... about 2 days ago I decided to make a temporary gas tank for testing
so I don't have that big gas tank in my way. I haven't filled it with gas yet but will soon....
I was courious to see if the Ninja would start so I started it.....
and it did run.... it wouldn't take throttle because it was cold but it did run
....
so in the next few days I will try to see if I can get that beast working again.
....I have been messing with the XR650L for the last month giving myself a brake from the Ninja.... but I want to get the Ninja running and out of the shop
now so I can do things in there !
....
I'll put coolant in it and gas in the temp gas tank and see if the darn thing will run right when it's warm !

I have all the vacuum lines to the tank plugged and I am fairly certain the carbs are plugged in properly.... not positive but I think so !
....
if it still has a flat spot at 5k RPM I do not know what to do !
......
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Old April 17th, 2023, 03:02 PM   #72
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Ok I finally got back to the Ninja 250R.....
I pulled the old plugs and put in new iridium NGK plugs the gap looked good so I left them alone and just put them in the bike....
My temporary gas tank finally dried good so I took it out to theXR650 and filled it up because that was the easiest way to get gas in that plastic jar...
I used one of the old petcock valves off the Triumph 750 and bolted it to the plastic jar and then covered the outside of the fitting with shoe-goo and let it dry for 2 days....
I plugged in the gas line to the carbs on the Ninja and started it ...
realised the radiaror was dry still so I turned it off and filled the radiator.... that took a long time to get all the bubbles out but finally it quit taking coolant....
it would start fairly easily with the choke on full but it would not take any throttle... I let it warm up a bit and finally played with it right at the edge of the flat spot enough to where it finally got over it and reved way up to over 9k RPM
but soon as it went down it did not want to throttle up again.... so I again attempted to adjust the low speed fuel/air screws I think I had one screw out about 3 or 4 turns and the other at about 2.... not real sure on that because you can't see good or feel if you are actually on the screw to begin with... I think I got them both arround 3 turns out now and it's bogg point is smaller but still very hard to get over that bog without killing the bike
if I get it above 6~7 grand in RPM it will go higher with ease but up to 6k
is extreamily hard to get there ... if you give it the throttle it just boggs and dies like it's sucking too much air I've got a plug in every vacuum line I can find but it is obviously getting too much air from somewhere.... it's acting like a vacuum line is completely off and sucking air.... but all the lines are connected where they should be.... ( I think anyway)
....
so the mechanical part of the bike is actually fixed... the valves are good and I don't have to worry about the timing being off as it got to 12,000 RPM one time so if the timing was off it would never get that high....
....
I think 80% of my problems is adjusting the fuel/air screws...
so I think what I will do is seat them and back them out 2.5 turns each and then try it..... I have Absolutely no idea where they ended up at as I was trying to adjust them to the highest RPM but that really didn't work as there was no change I had the idle stop screw adjusted for 2000 RPM and that is probably why that didn't work .... I've always adjusted fuel/air screws at 500~800 RPM in that area and soon as it raised to 1000 RPM I lowered the RPM again back down to 500~800 RPM and that has always worked good for me on twins.....
this bike is finicky, it has to be set up perfictly or it will not run right there is no lee-way for forgiveness it's perfect or nothing ! at least that is my impression !!!! LOL

So.... it does run but there is a huge bogg at just above idle till around 6k RPM and then it takes off and runs like a champ..... I won't run it at high rpms without a load on it as that will destroy a motor fast.... but I did it enough to get the profile of how it is running.....
it's got a huge mid range bog ! ....
and I have no idea what is causing it...... do you guys have any suggestions ?
...
Bob.........
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Old May 5th, 2023, 01:03 PM   #73
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As an update to this old thread, I boxed up the carbs and sent them back to Gordon at his offer to give them another going through.... I took him up on his offer and sent them to him, we discussed that we should try some different things one smaller main jets as it was running too rich.... and Gordon suggested 2 shims.... and after reading about 30 different posts about guys having a bogging issue like I had I totally agreed. ( 95 main jets and 2 Shims under the needles)
.....
Gordon did his Work on the carbs a second time, without charging me anything.... and changed the jets and shims and in his inspection of the carbs he found the float level on one carb was too high.... which he surmised was the main problem. so he replaced both floats and their seats. and set the float height.
then he boxed them up and sent them back to me.
.....
I got the carbs back a few days ago, and last night I installed them
had a fuel delivery issue from my temporary gas tank, figured that out and
finally got gas to the carbs.... and I noticed gas running underneath the bike
so I turned off the gas, and then noticed both carbs leaking gas from the overflow on each carb.
I turned on the choke and hit the starter and the bike fired right up !
and idled nicely I then added throttle and the RPM climbed like it should !
( instead of bogging).... even on a cold engine which this bike has never done sense I've owned it.... it was like WOW I think he fixed it !
I revved it a few times to 6,000 RPM without a hitch and it showed signs of running low on gas.... so I turned on the fuel and filled the carbs again...
fuel ran out of both carb over flows again... so I turned off the fuel again.
this time sense it was a bit warmer I revved it to 8k RPM and there are no issues at all.... it runs fantastically !
.... I then turned it off and thought about it.... ....
I then turned on the gas and then tapped the bowls of the carbs with a hammer.... no change... hit the starter and it fired right up without hesitation....
.... if it wern't for the gas overflowing out of the carbs overflow now they would be perfect..... but gas is still flowing out the overflow so I need to
set the fuel level lower....
.......
and that is where I set for the moment.
....better but not right yet.
...
Bob......
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Old May 5th, 2023, 01:25 PM   #74
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Not long ago I had that happen on a different motorcycle. The cure was to turn off the petcock, run the bowls dry, then refill them with the bike vertical (not on side stand). They never gave me any trouble after that.
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Old May 5th, 2023, 02:35 PM   #75
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pic of results of your wet test, notice NO LEAKS and fuel levels indicated by red marks. The hoses are not totally clear., require enlargement to see the fuel level. I erroneously marked the level in red on the hose of the RH carb, but the LH carb fuel level is clearly visible.
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Old May 5th, 2023, 02:52 PM   #76
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well, I actually just went out there... tapped on the carb bowls turned on the gas & choke
hit the starter and it fired right up.... NO Leaks ! it did fix itself ! LOL
.... I've had that happen several times in the past with many different carbs they just don't like to be ran dry some times ! ... and when they are dry going back together and you start filling them up half the time they get stuck...
but no leaks now....
.... I ran it for a few minutes... at first it ran great..... the longer I ran it the worse it ran.... it took throttle great when I first started it... after it started getting warm it started bogging at the opening of the throttle turn on the choke and it revs to 3,000 RPM and takes throttle great... take the choke off and give it the throttle and it died...
completely different from what it was last night ! .... or even 10 minutes ago !
I decided to set the fuel air screws and let it idle without the choke... but the idle was really low so I cranked the little dongle and got the RPM to about 800RPM which is still fairly low.... got my 90 degree screw driver out and by then the idle had dropped really low again.... I reached over to give it throttle and it died before I could..... now it won't start.... it's like WTF ! this thing hates me !
.....
Bob.......
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Old May 5th, 2023, 03:54 PM   #77
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Have you recently pulled the fuel line off the carbs, applied vacuum to the petcock, and checked flow?
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Old May 5th, 2023, 10:04 PM   #78
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no Jim...I stopped trying to put on the big heavy gas tank and made up a small aux gas tank out of a plastic mayonnaise jar and an old on off valve from the triumphs gas tank
( and Yes the Lid has to be loose on the Mayo jar or vacuum will stop gas flow) I discovered that this morning....
....
about the only thing that could change in the 3~5 minutes that it ran is the air box viberating back onto the carb boots on the back side .... I did not hook up the back side carb boots before I started it but they look like their fairly close to being on the carbs now.... I'm going to pull the air cleaner just to be sure I don't have a wet filter or something....
....
it doesn't make sense what it did while I watched it run unless something like that happened.... that would account for the crappy running and eventually dying...
the only other thing I did was turn up the idle.... via the dongle.
.... if air was restricted in the air box it could have caused all of this.... it is UNLIKELY as
heck.... but I have to start somewhere.
.....( I got the gas out of the XR650L for the Mayo Jar i.e. Aux gas tank.)(Clark tank no rust. and it's not old gas)
...
I'm wondering if the StaBul 360 is so thick that it plugs up the Ninja Carb ? all the gas here has StaBul 360 in it..... More than recommended.
....
that OR the lid on the Aux Gas tank closed by it self and the bike ran out of gas..... that is more than likely !!!! time to put a pin hole in that lid !..... (what an idiot...I am sure that is the case! it fits!)


Bob.........
....
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Old May 6th, 2023, 12:42 AM   #79
Bob KellyIII
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L.

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Ok.... This time it went according to plan....
at 12:15 am I went out there to the shop and poked a hole in the Aux gas tank lid, put it back on and turned on the gas... and gas flowed into the carbs and filled them up
and no over flow or anything like that... I turned on the choke and key and hit the starter and it turned through about 3 times and fired right up I had to lower the idle because I had it way up because I didn't realise it was running out of gas ! DUH !
anyway... i took the choke off and it idled great I turned the fuel air screws open about 3/4 turn each and left them at that ...I did notice the RPM gain slightly while doing that
I turned the throttle and the RPM gained like it should with no bog or anything
being late at night I didn't want to make alot of noise but it reved to 6k RPM easily and smoothly....
....
IT WORKS FINALLY !!!!!
now I just have to put it all back together !
....
Thank you Gordon you do great work even if I don't ! but I did get it going correctly again.... testing it on the road is to come but I am fairly certain by the sound of it it will be far superior to how it ran before all this fiasco !
....she fought me every inch of the way ! but clean living and perseverance prevailed !
HAHAHAHAH (and a great Carb man in Ducattiman, his work made this possible! )
thanks Gordon "You Da MAN !"
.....

How about that.... it actually works again.... I've fought it for so long I was beginning to wonder if it ever would work again.... that's one Hard bike to work on !
.....
Bob........
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Old May 6th, 2023, 05:20 AM   #80
Triple Jim
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Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

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MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
...poked a hole in the Aux gas tank lid, put it back on and turned on the gas... and gas flowed into the carbs and filled them up...
...I didn't realise it was running out of gas ! DUH !
That's why I asked about the petcock flow. Your description made it sound like it was getting fuel for a while, then it wasn't.
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