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Old August 30th, 2016, 08:43 PM   #1
Glowing Ninja
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Clutch Thoughts

To preface this thread i will give you some background.

When I bought this bike the clutch grab was at the end of the lever, i grew to love that. I dont care for clutch-less shift because its way different then what i got used to riding dirt bikes when i was younger, i know thats a mute point but its still the case.

I also like light shifting, quick small movements.

Problems.

With my clutch grab at the far end of the lever pull, it doesnt disengage completely, its enough to shift into first from neutral but the bike jerks a little. (fixed for now to save my almost gone clutch)

Second, sometimes i get false neutrals with my quick and light shifting.

I know the simple solution to to adjust things to spec and actually shift, but here is where you experienced ninja rider come into play.

I want it to stay the same!

Ive went as far as thinking about putting servos on the bike so after i get rolling all ill have to do is blip the throttle and press a button and it clutch and shift up in a fashion for it to be almost the minimum required movement for quick and efficient, yet trouble free operation.

Alas, as much as i love building things and playing with my smelter and casting aluminum, that seems a bit clunky and very time consuming to get right.

SOOO, any suggestions to get short pull clutch disengagement/engagement without wearing out the clutch (mines been almost gone since i got it, i feel like if i replaced it id stall every 5 minutes lol) and a way to have quick, light shifting without the possibility of a FN?

I know this is really picky and splitting hairs. But short of servos, or casting
a longer throw piece for the shifter and making a weird tiny pully system to amplify my clutch lever movement, i dont know what to do or if its possible.

Thanks for any input of this borderline dumb thread.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:12 PM   #2
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Clutch wear has nothing to do with where the lever releases. That's all in the adjustment.

When's the last time it had an oil change? Old nasty oil can affect shifting. If you don't know when, do it and see if it helps.

You really should adjust the cable properly and get used to that instead. Your clutch might be fine for another 50,000 miles......unless it's misadjusted. How many miles are on it? It should last for at LEAST 40K or more miles.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:26 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Clutch wear has nothing to do with where the lever releases. That's all in the adjustment.

When's the last time it had an oil change? Old nasty oil can affect shifting. If you don't know when, do it and see if it helps.

You really should adjust the cable properly and get used to that instead. Your clutch might be fine for another 50,000 miles......unless it's misadjusted. How many miles are on it? It should last for at LEAST 40K or more miles.
So it being engaged (more than just a spining tire on a stand, i wore a grove in my shoe stopping it "fully disengaged"). That wont hurt it much?

And i have a little under 13k on the bike. got it at 8k for $1,800

I changed the oil maybe 5 hundred miles ago. granted its pretty dark so im tempted to change it again.

And i know i should keep it adjusted properly, where its at, at the moment. I just would rather it not be.

I might do a build thread and cast the shifting arm with specs so someone could cast, weld, cnc, etc one. maybe figure a way to amplify the shift cable movement.

Is there no way to get the results i want without making something?
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:40 PM   #4
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The rod that actuates the clutch at the engine case has to move X degrees for the clutch to disengage. That's fixed. Nothing you can do about it.

This means the lever on the shaft that disengages the clutch has to move the same amount of degrees, but depending on the length of the lever attached the LENGTH/distance/arc of movement can be increased or decreased (how far the cable and clutch lever have to move to disengage it.)

Shorter lever = harder to pull. Longer lever = easier to pull but more distance to pull.

The short answer is, you can leave it as is and wear your clutch faster.

Or you can adjust it properly, get a feel for where it disengages, and just learn to pull the lever to that point. After a while on my bike, it's a one finger clutch pull, quick flick of the lever, and off we go.

What kind of oil are you using? Try some Rotella T6 (blue jug from Wal Mart) and see if that helps. I race a 2011 and it shifts just fine with a quick pull of the lever.

You might be surprised how well things actually work if they were adjusted properly.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
The rod that actuates the clutch at the engine case has to move X degrees for the clutch to disengage. That's fixed. Nothing you can do about it.

This means the lever on the shaft that disengages the clutch has to move the same amount of degrees, but depending on the length of the lever attached the LENGTH/distance/arc of movement can be increased or decreased (how far the cable and clutch lever have to move to disengage it.)

Shorter lever = harder to pull. Longer lever = easier to pull but more distance to pull.

The short answer is, you can leave it as is and wear your clutch faster.

Or you can adjust it properly, get a feel for where it disengages, and just learn to pull the lever to that point. After a while on my bike, it's a one finger clutch pull, quick flick of the lever, and off we go.

What kind of oil are you using? Try some Rotella T6 (blue jug from Wal Mart) and see if that helps. I race a 2011 and it shifts just fine with a quick pull of the lever.

You might be surprised how well things actually work if they were adjusted properly.
hmm. and last time i used Kawi oil from a bike shop.

Isnt T6 diesel oil?
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:48 PM   #6
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What about the shifter? Could i increase the length of the arm on the shifter to increase rotational movement at the end where it connects to the linkage so my light shifting could mimic that of a full shift with the stock foot shifter, eliminating a false neutral?
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Old August 30th, 2016, 10:28 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Glowing Ninja View Post
hmm. and last time i used Kawi oil from a bike shop.

Isnt T6 diesel oil?
It's JASO-MA rated. I've been running it in all my machines for ages with no issues. One of the few oils my picky Suzuki actually likes and the transmission doesn't clunk. But, let's not make this an oil thread. Pick some up and see if it makes a difference. If not, use whatever you want.

In regards to the shift lever, if you make it longer, it will be harder to reach. If you make it shorter, same thing.

Best to modify the part on the shift shaft. Shorten that part up a bit for less shift throw.

But once again, proper clutch adjustment and different oil could eliminate your issues without any modifications at all.

I live by KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) when I work on, build or modify things. Start with the simple things first before getting overly complicated.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 10:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
It's JASO-MA rated. I've been running it in all my machines for ages with no issues. One of the few oils my picky Suzuki actually likes and the transmission doesn't clunk. But, let's not make this an oil thread. Pick some up and see if it makes a difference. If not, use whatever you want.

In regards to the shift lever, if you make it longer, it will be harder to reach. If you make it shorter, same thing.

Best to modify the part on the shift shaft. Shorten that part up a bit for less shift throw.

But once again, proper clutch adjustment and different oil could eliminate your issues without any modifications at all.

I live by KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) when I work on, build or modify things. Start with the simple things first before getting overly complicated.
by shift lever i dont mean the part your foot touches, i mean the part that connects to the rod going to the part that connects to the tranny?

KISS is nice, i follow it when it costs me money. but when i can use what have and just invest free time into it, which i have A LOT of recently i can get as complicated as my supplies allow.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 11:14 PM   #9
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I'm not being sarcastic or critical in a personal attack sense when I say this: learn how to shift properly. You don't need a clutch to shift. Up or down. That's not to say don't use your clutch, just that if you are smooth and accurate with your shifting & throttle; you don't need to use the clutch. So set the lever throw to spec and practice your shifting with as little or as much lever pull as you want to use. If you're using good technique; your shifts will be perfect.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 07:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glowing Ninja View Post
by shift lever i dont mean the part your foot touches, i mean the part that connects to the rod going to the part that connects to the tranny?

KISS is nice, i follow it when it costs me money. but when i can use what have and just invest free time into it, which i have A LOT of recently i can get as complicated as my supplies allow.
FWIW, we had a short lever arm on the shift shaft on our race bike to keep the foot lever throw short. Turns out, that was a mistake as it made finding neutral incredibly difficult. Lengthened it by 1/2" and it was perfect. Shorter isn't always better.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 09:37 AM   #11
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Slown60 - I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the input. My adjustment are proper at the moment I was just looking for a quicker shift without going clutchless.

RacingNinja - Thanks for that bit of info. I might still try that tho. As of right now almost every time I shift the neutral light flashes because I prefer to shift light (unless that's a mechanical issue and I actually shift correctly?) And sometimes I get false neutrals going from 1-2 and every once in a great while I get them shifting into the other gears. If I'm just cruising I have no issue but if I'm in vroom vroom mode that's when it becomes apparent.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:13 PM   #12
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Why make one when they are already for sale???
Just search ninja 300 quick shifter on google, go to hardracing .com, or well almost anywhere
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:26 PM   #13
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Mr. Nope...

Respectfully sir, you can shift smoothly, quickly and consistently by shifting with authority. That doesn't mean overly hard, violently or the sorts, it just means "completely, and like you mean it". 250/300's are not the bike for you if your looking for "butter smooth" shifts with the utmost of minimal effort, 250's are kinda clunky vs other more refined bikes. You're gunna need an upgrade in hardware to get that what you are after and a quick shifter on a 250/300 will NOT deliver the feel you're after. The problems you describe will sadly remain. :\

Also, even talented racers get false N's when shifting every now and then. To try to eliminate them 100% will be an effort resulting in frustration. Technique will win the day here, stuff to try;

1. adjust shift lever to boot thickness + free play to ensure you're not putting the lever in a half shift position from the start
2. adjust the clutch lever or get adjustable levers so you can put the friction zone as close as possible to where you prefer it. Honestly though, the farther out the better imho, but that is just my preference
3. Ensure you run an oil for wet clutches, as clunky as the 250/300's are anyway, why add to the problem by using a crappy oil
4. Work on your timing, clutch + shift timing can make a world of difference. Especially true while downshifting
5. When riding "harder", learn to preload the shift lever, you don't even need the clutch to upshift. Just load the lever and do a quick roll off, roll on and your in the next gear. easy peasy!

Bluntness.... (sorry)
While there is nothing wrong with customizing the hard bits to your personal preferences, justifying a purchase of an aftermarket item due to a skill or technique issue will not get you very far in your riding career. You will forever feel held back by the hardware.

Last futzed with by csmith12; August 31st, 2016 at 05:53 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:28 PM   #14
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Why make one when they are already for sale???
Just search ninja 300 quick shifter on google, go to hardracing .com, or well almost anywhere
Won't work with a Ninja 250. Quckshifters work with a PowerCommander and cut the fuel to the fuel injectors.....Ninja 250's have carbs.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:31 PM   #15
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Won't work with a Ninja 250. Quckshifters work with a PowerCommander and cut the fuel to the fuel injectors.....Ninja 250's have carbs.
I keep forgetting 250's are a thing
Get a 300... Or learn to clutch less, or adjust your clutch...
Nvm
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Old August 31st, 2016, 02:27 PM   #16
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I'll ask a stupid question: The goal here is to get the clutch to disengage completely and put the friction zone really close to the bar at the same time, right?

So... instead of overly complicating all this (and I'm a nerdy engineering type who LOVES that train of thought, but let's forget about all that for a moment), why not keep it simple?

The ninja 500 (and maybe other models, like the 650) have adjustable clutch levers from the factory. Swap the perch and lever with your parts. Then you'll be able to adjust the lever properly so it can disengage completely and adjust the lever position in to get the friction zone where you like it

I bet the way you have it set up now, with enough slack in the cable to not completely disengage, makes the lever rattle like a son-of-a-gun... must be annoying.

PS: Why in the world you WANT your clutch to disengage really close to the bar, I have no idea. That requires you to move your fingers off the bars and give up some control. I'm a huge proponent of 2 finger shifting. With the shifter set up as the factory suggests, you can easily use your pointer and middle fingers to work the clutch without letting go of the bar with your ring and pinky fingers. Quick and simple.


Csmith12 is right on the money; shift with authority. That doesn't mean get angry and go hulk on it. Just do it with confidence and authority. Clunk clunk clunk. It's not a refined machine.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 02:52 PM   #17
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Thanks csmith12. I'll have to give that a try.

Choneofakind , i want it to engage/disengage as far away from the bar as possible. and yes i agree on the 2 finger shifting as thats what i do.

I might have to look into that 500 setup you mentioned.

Alas, I'm off to adjust the valves, replace spark plugs, and resync the carbs.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 03:59 PM   #18
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Oh, as FAR from the bar as possible. I misread that...

Yeah... you're not going to gain anything by going to an adjustable lever then. Out is out. All you can do is adjust the lever to take out slack without going so far that you can't disengage the lever. If you currently can't disengage the lever completely, you've gone too far on the adjuster.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 05:44 PM   #19
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Oh, as FAR from the bar as possible. I misread that...

Yeah... you're not going to gain anything by going to an adjustable lever then. Out is out. All you can do is adjust the lever to take out slack without going so far that you can't disengage the lever. If you currently can't disengage the lever completely, you've gone too far on the adjuster.
Thats sad news, and yeah ive dialed it back so its about mid throw of the lever.

Im off to go do the intake valves now. the exhaust valve are a PITA! And there wasent even 0.002 clearance I think the Kawi tool will be a future purchase at some point.

Thank you everyone for your input on this thread.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 07:13 PM   #20
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I can't fathom attempting the valve adjust without the tool.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 07:14 PM   #21
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I can't fathom attempting the valve adjust without the tool.
It's not bad. I bought the tool finally, only used it once. 6 one way, half dozen the other.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:11 AM   #22
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Won't work with a Ninja 250. Quckshifters work with a PowerCommander and cut the fuel to the fuel injectors.....Ninja 250's have carbs.
Contraire....you very much can put a QS on the 250 Ninja and the pregen specifically. It cuts spark in this case, much like most QS's that are not PowerCommander driven (Bazzaz for instance). Healtech makes one for the 250 Ninja and it actually works wonderfully.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 05:37 AM   #23
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Old September 1st, 2016, 06:37 AM   #24
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Contraire....you very much can put a QS on the 250 Ninja and the pregen specifically. It cuts spark in this case, much like most QS's that are not PowerCommander driven (Bazzaz for instance). Healtech makes one for the 250 Ninja and it actually works wonderfully.
Yeah, they do cut ignition, I was mistaken.

I saw an ad for the HealTech one and clicked on it but it kept saying FI bikes everywhere on the website. "Works with any fuel injected bike." I didn't see anything there for the carbed Ninjas.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:19 AM   #25
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Cuts ignition, carbs keep fueling, after your shift, bike says, "BANG!"
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:31 AM   #26
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Cuts ignition, carbs keep fueling, after your shift, bike says, "BANG!"
It's only something like a 70-80 millisecond cut. If it's timed wrong, though, they definitely bang.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 10:12 AM   #27
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Here's a video of the Healtech in action, you can see (by the tach) and hear how it works going down the straight.

at 4:00 min.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old September 1st, 2016, 10:15 AM   #28
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Here's a video of the Healtech in action, you can see (by the tach) and hear how it works going down the straight.

at 4:00 min.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Oh, I wasn't doubting you. I just didn't see any info on their site for non FI bikes.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 10:53 AM   #29
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That's wild. His drops really far very quickly before going into the next gear. When I do clutchless shifting with a throttle chop, the RPM's don't drop that aggressively. Is that normal RPM drop for a quick shifter?


Example of my traditional clutchless shifting with throttle chop:

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:38 AM   #30
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Talking

Quote:
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I can't fathom attempting the valve adjust without the tool.
Well I got quoted about $1,700 to service my bike... I know mechs got to eat and business has to profit but, nope. I was not doing that.

I adjusted the valves and synced my carbs for $20.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:39 AM   #31
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I'm not sure about the tach. If you watch it, it goes up when down shifting and down when up shifting. There is no appreciable drop or gain in actual rpm so I think it's just the tach being confused by the ignition cut. None of my other bikes with ignition cut react that way at the tach, though we're talking on new GSXR's with a whole different ignition system going on.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:50 AM   #32
Glowing Ninja
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Contraire....you very much can put a QS on the 250 Ninja and the pregen specifically. It cuts spark in this case, much like most QS's that are not PowerCommander driven (Bazzaz for instance). Healtech makes one for the 250 Ninja and it actually works wonderfully.
Thats good to know.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:57 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by cbreater View Post
I'm not sure about the tach. If you watch it, it goes up when down shifting and down when up shifting. There is no appreciable drop or gain in actual rpm so I think it's just the tach being confused by the ignition cut. None of my other bikes with ignition cut react that way at the tach, though we're talking on new GSXR's with a whole different ignition system going on.
Exactly. On the Ninja, the tach is fed by a wire from the coil since it doesn't have an ECU. On an FI bike, the tach is fed from the ECU. Since I would assume the HealTech taps into the coil power or signal wires, it would interfere with the tach movement or reading.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:22 PM   #34
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Oh, I wasn't doubting you. I just didn't see any info on their site for non FI bikes.

No, I didn't think you doubted, I was showing what it was like in action.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 12:57 AM   #35
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Thanks again everyone for your input and insight on things to do and QS tech. I truly appreciate it.

I have to state tho, since it was brought up a few times, I can clutch-less shift, with a smooth 1k drop on my good days. I was almost half tempted to upload a video to dispel that to keep this thread on point.

I was trying to find or brainstorm for an on point shifting solution that minimized human error.

The Quick shifter mentioned by Cbreater sounds great but i feel like false neutrals would still be an issue with what i was hoping for.
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